From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Wed Feb 01 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!bcm!news.msfc.nasa.gov!kinky.eng.gtefsd.com!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news.pop.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!newsfeed.pitt.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: sforsgren@aol.com (SForsgren) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: ALBUMIN LEVELS Date: 1 Feb 1995 17:58:18 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 18 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3gp3ma$nmd@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: sforsgren@aol.com (SForsgren) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com I just got back a blood chemistry test that indicated that my albumin levels were a little high. I don't have the exact numbers yet. What causes this to be high? I read in Dirk and Sandy's book that this could mean hypertension (which I have), kidney or liver problems, and various other things. What it did not indicate was whether the problem was with too much or too little? Which is bad? Also, what can one do about this? Thanks. ******************************************************** Power comes through the sharing of knowledge. Show your power! Scott Forsgren ********************************************************* From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Wed Feb 01 22:00:00 1995 Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Path: biosci!adam.cc.sunysb.edu!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!luly From: luly@netcom.com (Robert Luly) Subject: Re: ALBUMIN LEVELS Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3gp3ma$nmd@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 00:16:35 GMT Lines: 22 My understanding is it should be over 4.5, what is yours? Normal is 3.5-5.0 GM/DL. SForsgren (sforsgren@aol.com) wrote: : I just got back a blood chemistry test that : indicated that my albumin levels were a little : high. I don't have the exact numbers yet. : What causes this to be high? I read in : Dirk and Sandy's book that this could mean : hypertension (which I have), kidney or liver : problems, and various other things. What it : did not indicate was whether the problem : was with too much or too little? Which is bad? : Also, what can one do about this? : Thanks. : ******************************************************** : Power comes through the sharing of knowledge. : Show your power! Scott Forsgren : ********************************************************* From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Wed Feb 01 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!adam.cc.sunysb.edu!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!tribune.usask.ca!quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!leblanc From: leblanc@unixg.ubc.ca (Heidi N LeBlanc) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,bionet.molbio.bio-matrix,bionet.molbio.embldatabank,bionet.molbio.evolution,bionet.molbio.gdb,bionet.molbio.genome-program,bionet.molbio.hiv,bionet.molbio.rapd,bionet.molbio.yeast,bionet.molbio.gene-linkage Subject: Re: controversies & ethics Followup-To: bionet.molbio.ageing,bionet.molbio.bio-matrix,bionet.molbio.embldatabank,bionet.molbio.evolution,bionet.molbio.gdb,bionet.molbio.genome-program,bionet.molbio.hiv,bionet.molbio.rapd,bionet.molbio.yeast,bionet.molbio.gene-linkage Date: 2 Feb 1995 17:45:59 GMT Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3gr5on$amt@nnrp.ucs.ubc.ca> References: <3gk3au$pdp@rebecca.albany.edu> <3gm7u9$t5e@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: interchg.ubc.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1224 bionet.molbio.bio-matrix:537 bionet.molbio.embldatabank:439 bionet.molbio.evolution:2394 bionet.molbio.gdb:285 bionet.molbio.genome-program:1148 bionet.molbio.hiv:865 bionet.molbio.rapd:954 bionet.molbio.yeast:2287 bionet.molbio.gene-linkage:519 One of the problems isn't so much what we *do* with biotechnology, as how what we do is generally perceived. We as scientists think "Oh, what a clever idea, putting an arctic fish gene into strawberries". Non-scientists, with whatever level of education, often seem to think this is just monstrous. The issue might not really be whether what we are doing is ethical, or whether the ethics are unique to biotech, but rather that the level of tinkering we can achieve is vaguely felt to be just plain unnatural. The ethical problems might really be PR problems, and no less real for that. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Wed Feb 01 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!hubcap.clemson.edu!biosci!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!satisfied.elf.com!news2.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: proctorp@delphi.com Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: free radicals do not cause ageing. Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 20:25:38 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 3 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1b.delphi.com X-To: Lou Pagnucco Re: Ref on PBN and nitric oxide Thats it. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 02 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!bcm!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!emi.com!pauling.wadsworth.org!rebecca!labonnes From: labonnes@csc.albany.edu (S. LaBonne) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,bionet.molbio.bio-matrix,bionet.molbio.embldatabank,bionet.molbio.evolution,bionet.molbio.gdb,bionet.molbio.genome-program,bionet.molbio.hiv,bionet.molbio.rapd,bionet.molbio.yeast,bionet.molbio.gene-linkage Subject: Re: controversies & ethics Date: 2 Feb 1995 16:43:49 GMT Organization: University at Albany, SUNY Lines: 34 Message-ID: <3gr245$i9p@rebecca.albany.edu> References: <3gm7u9$t5e@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <3gml85$fb5@rebecca.albany.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: freia.albany.edu Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1226 bionet.molbio.bio-matrix:538 bionet.molbio.embldatabank:440 bionet.molbio.evolution:2395 bionet.molbio.gdb:286 bionet.molbio.genome-program:1152 bionet.molbio.hiv:866 bionet.molbio.rapd:955 bionet.molbio.yeast:2298 bionet.molbio.gene-linkage:522 In article , Howard M. Bomze wrote: > Steve Bonne has been saying that there are no new ethical >considerations for agricultural biotechnologies. However, he has been >missing one very important one, that is the possibility of an engineered >gene to be transfered to a different species. The transgenic plant not >only has the sequences of the desired gene, it also contains the >sequences which are necesary to insert the gene into the genome. So a >question which must be looked at is this: If a gene for herbicide >resistance has been put into a corn plant so that that herbicide can be >used to kill all of the crab grass in the corn field, what happens if >the gene is transfered to the crab grass? Is there an _ethical_ problem here? I guess I can parse this as meaning, "if we failed to be concerned about this possibility and released the engineered corn without satisfying ourselves that it won't happen, we would be behaving unethically". Certainly I agree. Since comparable transfers of desired traits have been performed by selective breeding since the Neolithic (not to mention that horizontal gene transfers occur all the time in nature), I still don't see the _qualitatively_ new ethical considerations that you seem to think exist here. (Introducing rabbits into Australia is a good pre-biotechnology example of failing to anticipate massive undesired consequences of an environmental manipulation.) Don't get me wrong- we clearly need to start thinking a lot more seriously about the potential undesired impacts of _all_ new technologies. I just think that to single out biotechnology as some kind of special case borders on superstition. -- Steve LaBonne *********************** (labonnes@csc.albany.edu) "It can never be satisfied, the mind, never." - Wallace Stevens From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 02 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!agate!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gatech!swiss.ans.net!emi.com!pauling.wadsworth.org!rebecca!labonnes From: labonnes@csc.albany.edu (S. LaBonne) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,bionet.molbio.bio-matrix,bionet.molbio.embldatabank,bionet.molbio.evolution,bionet.molbio.gdb,bionet.molbio.genome-program,bionet.molbio.hiv,bionet.molbio.rapd,bionet.molbio.yeast,bionet.molbio.gene-linkage Subject: Re: controversies & ethics Date: 2 Feb 1995 21:41:47 GMT Organization: University at Albany, SUNY Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3grjir$n5d@rebecca.albany.edu> References: <3gm7u9$t5e@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <3gr5on$amt@nnrp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: bathsheba.albany.edu Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1227 bionet.molbio.bio-matrix:539 bionet.molbio.embldatabank:442 bionet.molbio.evolution:2397 bionet.molbio.gdb:287 bionet.molbio.genome-program:1154 bionet.molbio.hiv:867 bionet.molbio.rapd:956 bionet.molbio.yeast:2301 bionet.molbio.gene-linkage:523 In article <3gr5on$amt@nnrp.ucs.ubc.ca>, Heidi N LeBlanc wrote: >One of the problems isn't so much what we *do* with biotechnology, as how >what we do is generally perceived. We as scientists think "Oh, what a >clever idea, putting an arctic fish gene into strawberries". >Non-scientists, with whatever level of education, often seem to think >this is just monstrous. The issue might not really be whether what we >are doing is ethical, or whether the ethics are unique to biotech, but >rather that the level of tinkering we can achieve is vaguely felt to be >just plain unnatural. The ethical problems might really be PR problems, >and no less real for that. I quite agree, and my fear is that we needlessly _exacerbate_ these PR problems if we single out biotechnology for the kind of special treatment exemplified by the proposed course that started this discussion. Then naturally laypeople conclude, "Gee, even the scientists think this stuff is especially problematical, so we _certainly_ should be worried". -- Steve LaBonne *********************** (labonnes@csc.albany.edu) "It can never be satisfied, the mind, never." - Wallace Stevens From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 02 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!bcm!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!prodigy.com!usenet From: BWXF27B@prodigy.com (Larry Sharp) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: ALBUMIN LEVELS Date: 3 Feb 1995 03:38:09 GMT Organization: Prodigy Services Company 1-800-PRODIGY Lines: 3 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3gs8f1$c78@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: inugap4.news.prodigy.com X-Newsreader: Version 1.2 There is a strong inverse correlation of Albumin levels with mortality for all age groups. 45 is a good level, but 50 would be better. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 02 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!bcm!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!po.CWRU.Edu!clc14 From: clc14@po.CWRU.Edu (Carrie L. Conaway) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: WWW homepages on aging/AD? Date: 3 Feb 1995 14:43:24 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3gtfec$ma6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Reply-To: clc14@po.CWRU.Edu (Carrie L. Conaway) NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu Hello there! I am a research assistant on an epidemiological study of Alzheimer's disease at the Alzheimer Center of Case Western Reserve University and University Hospitals of Cleveland. I am currently compiling a list of Internet resources on Alzheimer's disease, other neurological disorders associated with aging, and aging and the elderly in general. Does anyone out there have any references I might follow up on? I am especially interested in WWW pages, but gopher/telnet sites, email discussion groups, etc. would also be helpful. If you have any suggestions, please post to this group or email me directly. Thanks in advance! Carrie Conaway -- Carrie Conaway clc14@po.cwru.edu "The true republic--men, their rights and nothing more; women, their rights and nothing less." --Susan B. Anthony From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Fri Feb 03 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!hubcap.clemson.edu!biosci!rutgers!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!emi.com!pauling.wadsworth.org!rebecca!labonnes From: labonnes@csc.albany.edu (S. LaBonne) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,bionet.molbio.bio-matrix,bionet.molbio.embldatabank,bionet.molbio.evolution,bionet.molbio.gdb,bionet.molbio.gene-linkage,bionet.molbio.genome-program,bionet.molbio.hiv,bionet.molbio.rapd,bionet.molbio.yeast Subject: Re: controversies & ethics Date: 31 Jan 1995 01:21:34 GMT Organization: University at Albany, SUNY Lines: 39 Message-ID: <3gk3au$pdp@rebecca.albany.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: freia.albany.edu Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1230 bionet.molbio.bio-matrix:541 bionet.molbio.embldatabank:444 bionet.molbio.evolution:2403 bionet.molbio.gdb:288 bionet.molbio.gene-linkage:529 bionet.molbio.genome-program:1158 bionet.molbio.hiv:869 bionet.molbio.rapd:957 bionet.molbio.yeast:2304 In article , Phandaal wrote: >I've been asked to give a lecture to upper-division college students on >the controversies and ethical considerations in producing transgenic >organisms, especially transgenic plants. It's been a while since I gave >this lecture, and so I was wondering if anybody had any good examples of >controversies or ethical considerations that I could incorporate into the >talk. > >Two I can think of off-hand are: > >1) introducing insecticidal proteins (such as the Bacillus thuringiensis >protein) into plants may create resistant insect populations (under the >force of heavy selection pressure), which could then overrun the resistant >plants and make worthless the efforts by conventional growers who *use* Bt >protein as a topical pesticidal spray. > >2) altering fatty acid metabolism in oil-crops (like canola) so that they >produce oils found chiefly in palm and coconut could severely damage the >palm oil and coconut oil industries in Third World countries... thus >severely depressing the economies of these already struggling countries. My problem with these examples is that I see nothing about them that is unique to transgenic technology. Similar sorts of problems are raised all the time by "conventional" technologies, including very ancient ones like selective breeding. An analogue to 1 is simply overuse of pesticides (or antibiotics for that matter), which can render them worthless in the way you describe. And 2 in no way raises ethical issues different from, say, starting a palm oil industry in Key West, possibly after selective breeding of oil palms to produce strains that give high yields there. Indeed, I doubt that there _are_ any ethical issues which depend _specifically_ on agricultural use of biotechnology as opposed to agricultural technologies in general. -- Steve LaBonne *********************** (labonnes@csc.albany.edu) "It can never be satisfied, the mind, never." - Wallace Stevens From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Fri Feb 03 22:00:00 1995 Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Path: biosci!rutgers!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!luly From: luly@netcom.com (Robert Luly) Subject: Re: ALBUMIN LEVELS Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3gs8f1$c78@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 02:47:11 GMT Lines: 9 Larry Sharp (BWXF27B@prodigy.com) wrote: : There is a strong inverse correlation of Albumin levels with mortality : for all age groups. 45 is a good level, but 50 would be better. Hi Larry. I don't believe I have seen a scale as high as you report. I am only familiar with MG/DL. Could it be you mean; "4.5 is a good level, but 5.0 would be better"? Or is there another scale? R. Luly From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Fri Feb 03 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!hubcap.clemson.edu!biosci!ESSEX.HSC.COLORADO.EDU!kruged From: kruged@ESSEX.HSC.COLORADO.EDU (Edward Krug) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: Free Radicals, more constraints Date: 30 Jan 1995 22:05:56 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 38 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <9513103648.~INN-YRGa00165.bionet-news@dl.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net On 30 Jan 1995, Michael J. Conboy put forward the question of whether cells actually need and/or use free radicals, and that they are not be eliminated at all cost. (my gross editing, ed). Much of the biochemistry of life consists of passing along unpaired electrons, involving everything from the killing of microorganisms to basic mitochondrial function. By definition, "a Free Radical is any molecule that has an odd number of electrons". I pulled some journal review articles on free radicals and shocked myself at seeing how many normal metabolic processes generate free radicals. I had thought that talking about free radicals in general terms was too symplistic, but fear that it is even worse than that. The number and types of free radical sources and they diversity of damages they can generate are sufficiently large that a shopping list of antioxidants need be generated. One article pointed out that some scavangers at higher concentrations can affect the normal enzymes (CuZn-superoxide dismutase, and a number of other enzymes) used to scavange hydrogen peroxide or the O2- radical. It can be possible to have too much of some of the antioxiedes, so I suspect that the shopping list of antioxidants need include some form of a "minimum daily requirement" indication, and probably a maximum as well. This list will have to be a living list, growing as more is discovered, such as the agents used to inhibit non-enzymatic addition of sugars to lipids and proteins in the process of "browning" or non-enzymatic glycalation. This is the source of much of the tissue damage occuring in diabetics, and possibly the lack of this type of damage in the caloric restricted diets may contribute to the diets success. Conclusion?? Does anyone know if a list of recomended antioxidants with doses which goes beyond the simple list, to include such things as aminoguanidine hydrochloride (25 mg/mk, New Eng. J. of Med, 1988, vol 318, pp 1315-1321)? Edward C. Krug Ph.D. E-mail= kruged@essex.hsc.colorado.edu 303-270-7234 (vox), 303-270-8681 (fax) Univ. of Colorado Med. School From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Fri Feb 03 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!bcm!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: sforsgren@aol.com (SForsgren) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: ALBUMIN LEVELS Date: 3 Feb 1995 18:52:46 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 5 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3gufke$nkn@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <3gs8f1$c78@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> Reply-To: sforsgren@aol.com (SForsgren) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Mine was 5.1 G/DL ******************************************************** Power comes through the sharing of knowledge. Show your power! Scott Forsgren ********************************************************* From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Fri Feb 03 22:00:00 1995 Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Path: biosci!bcm!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!luly From: luly@netcom.com (Robert Luly) Subject: Re: WWW homepages on aging/AD? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3gtfec$ma6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 03:36:16 GMT Lines: 25 Carrie L. Conaway (clc14@po.CWRU.Edu) wrote: : Hello there! : I am a research assistant on an epidemiological study of Alzheimer's : disease at the Alzheimer Center of Case Western Reserve University and : University Hospitals of Cleveland. I am currently compiling a list of : Internet resources on Alzheimer's disease, other neurological disorders : associated with aging, and aging and the elderly in general. Does anyone : out there have any references I might follow up on? I am especially : interested in WWW pages, but gopher/telnet sites, email discussion groups, : etc. would also be helpful. : If you have any suggestions, please post to this group or email me : directly. Thanks in advance! : Carrie Conaway : -- : Carrie Conaway : clc14@po.cwru.edu : "The true republic--men, their rights and nothing more; women, their rights : and nothing less." --Susan B. Anthony http://werpl.mira.net.au/~dhs/ad.html From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sat Feb 04 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!bcm!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!Starbase.NeoSoft.COM!mckee From: mckee@starbase.neosoft.com (George McKee) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,bionet.molbio.bio-matrix,bionet.molbio.embldatabank,bionet.molbio.evolution,bionet.molbio.gdb,bionet.molbio.genome-program,bionet.molbio.hiv,bionet.molbio.rapd,bionet.molbio.yeast,bionet.molbio.gene-linkage Subject: Re: controversies & ethics Followup-To: bionet.molbio.ageing,bionet.molbio.bio-matrix,bionet.molbio.embldatabank,bionet.molbio.evolution,bionet.molbio.gdb,bionet.molbio.genome-program,bionet.molbio.hiv,bionet.molbio.rapd,bionet.molbio.yeast,bionet.molbio.gene-linkage Date: 5 Feb 1995 15:25:32 GMT Organization: NeoSoft Internet Services +1 713 968 5800 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3h2qlc$d6o@uuneo.neosoft.com> References: <3gk3au$pdp@rebecca.albany.edu> <3gm7u9$t5e@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: starbase.neosoft.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1236 bionet.molbio.bio-matrix:543 bionet.molbio.embldatabank:445 bionet.molbio.evolution:2412 bionet.molbio.gdb:290 bionet.molbio.genome-program:1164 bionet.molbio.hiv:871 bionet.molbio.rapd:960 bionet.molbio.yeast:2314 bionet.molbio.gene-linkage:530 Howard M. Bomze (hb10+@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote: : Steve Bonne has been saying that there are no new ethical : considerations for agricultural biotechnologies. However, he has been : missing one very important one, that is the possibility of an engineered : gene to be transfered to a different species. The transgenic plant not : only has the sequences of the desired gene, it also contains the : sequences which are necesary to insert the gene into the genome. This is one of those "ethical" problems that are really biological problems in disguise. Injecting new genes into the genomes of other organisms is precisely what retroviruses such as HIV have been doing for eons longer than biologists. To consider genetic engineering per se to be unethical is the same as considering crossbreeding unethical. The ethical considerations come into play when the new variety, however it was created, is being considered for introduction into the ecosystem. Introducing the gypsy moth into North America as a silk producer was far more disastrous than any frost-free tomato is likely to be. - George McKee -- Internet: mckee@neosoft.com Voice: +1 713 890 8122 From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 05 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!bcm!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!mreg.dialup.access.net!mreg From: mreg@panix.com (Mitchell Regenbogen) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: WWW homepages on aging/AD? Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 20:13:44 EST Organization: PANIX Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <3gtfec$ma6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.84.192.22 X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B] In article luly@netcom.com (Robert Luly) writes: >From: luly@netcom.com (Robert Luly) >Subject: Re: WWW homepages on aging/AD? >Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 03:36:16 GMT >Carrie L. Conaway (clc14@po.CWRU.Edu) wrote: >: Hello there! >: I am a research assistant on an epidemiological study of Alzheimer's >: disease at the Alzheimer Center of Case Western Reserve University and >: University Hospitals of Cleveland. I am currently compiling a list of >: Internet resources on Alzheimer's disease, other neurological disorders >: associated with aging, and aging and the elderly in general. Does anyone >: out there have any references I might follow up on? I am especially >: interested in WWW pages, but gopher/telnet sites, email discussion groups, >: etc. would also be helpful. >: If you have any suggestions, please post to this group or email me >: directly. Thanks in advance! >: Carrie Conaway >: -- >: Carrie Conaway >: clc14@po.cwru.edu >: "The true republic--men, their rights and nothing more; women, their rights >: and nothing less." --Susan B. Anthony >http://werpl.mira.net.au/~dhs/ad.html This is not a valid host. ------------------------------------------------------------------ | Mitch Regenbogen | | | mreg@panix.com | "I like to watch." | | Brooklyn, New York | --Chauncey Gardner | From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 05 22:00:00 1995 Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Path: biosci!bcm!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!hole From: hole@netcom.com (Will Leland) Subject: Re: ALBUMIN LEVELS Message-ID: References: <3gp3ma$nmd@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:52:52 GMT Lines: 10 I have always been tested as high on albumin. They just keep telling me to drink more water. I have often wondered if I needed to go on a low protein diet (total protein = albumin + globulin), but my total protein level is OK, with the A/G ratio being high. Anyone have thoughts on how to lower albumin? -- From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 05 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!POSSUM.MURDOCH.EDU.AU!cummins From: cummins@POSSUM.MURDOCH.EDU.AU (Dr Jim Cummins) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: WWW homepages on aging/AD? Date: 5 Feb 1995 17:06:41 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 32 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: >Carrie L. Conaway (clc14@po.CWRU.Edu) wrote: > >: Hello there! > >: I am a research assistant on an epidemiological study of Alzheimer's >: disease at the Alzheimer Center of Case Western Reserve University and >: University Hospitals of Cleveland. I am currently compiling a list of >: Internet resources on Alzheimer's disease, other neurological disorders >: associated with aging, and aging and the elderly in general. Try http://www.hookup.net/mall/aging/agesit59.html This is the home page for the Ageing Research Center. Yours, virtually:- Jim "Spermatology rules o~ o~ o~ o~" Cummins Associate Professor in Veterinary Anatomy Murdoch University, Murdoch Western Australia 6150 Tel +61-9-360 2668 Fax +61-9-310 4144 E mail cummins@possum.murdoch.edu.au "I hate quotations" From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 05 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!rutgers!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!lynx.unm.edu!SantaFe!beep!walshb From: walshb@beep.roadrunner.com (Bob Walsh) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Is there a role for a mathematician now? Date: 6 Feb 1995 10:11:48 GMT Organization: The Santa Fe Institute Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3h4sl4$s33@tierra.santafe.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: beep.roadrunner.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] In the early 70's Dr. Strehler granted a career-guidance interview to this mid-20s mathematician. He felt that the field was not yet ready for math support. He recommended concentrating on my field for a while. Well, here I am again, with lots of experience in computational physics and reliability/statistics and good general applied math skills. 1. What should I read to catch up? to track current work? 2. Where can I help? Bob Walsh, Science and Engineering Associates, Santa Fe, NM, USA walshb@alumni.caltech.edu (505) 263-1875 From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Mon Feb 06 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!rutgers!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!synapse.bms.com!news-admin From: mamber@synapse.bms.com (mamber) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,bionet.molbio.bio-matrix,bionet.molbio.embldatabank,bionet.molbio.evolution,bionet.molbio.gdb,bionet.molbi Subject: Re: controversies & ethics Date: 7 Feb 1995 15:24:32 GMT Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3h83bg$daf@synapse.bms.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.176.141.202 Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1247 bionet.molbio.bio-matrix:548 bionet.molbio.embldatabank:447 bionet.molbio.evolution:2419 bionet.molbio.gdb:293 In article , Phandaal says: > >I've been asked to give a lecture to upper-division college students on >the controversies and ethical considerations in producing transgenic >organisms, especially transgenic plants. >Peter Schuerman >plschuerman@ucdavis.edu How about lecturing on the benefits of creating transgenic tobacco plants that produce anticancer, anti-AIDS or other beneficial drugs instead of being used to make cigarettes and other smoking-related products? SWM mamber@synapse.bms.com From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Mon Feb 06 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!TENET.EDU!dashley From: dashley@TENET.EDU (Don Ashley) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: anybody there? Date: 7 Feb 1995 07:54:42 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 16 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <199502071346.FAA00686@net.bio.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net If they make the breakthrough in genetic research to cure the aging process, eventually there'll be no more menopause. Many other benefits will follow, also. Check out the latest telomerase studies. That's the 'immortality' enzyme. Don On 7 Feb 1995, Eva Durant wrote: > I was trying to join the Menopaus group - has anyone > any news of them? Or just tell me what to do with awful > hot flashes. Eva.Durant@mailhost.mcc.ac.uk > > From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Mon Feb 06 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK!Eva.Durant From: Eva.Durant@NESSIE.MCC.AC.UK (Eva Durant) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: anybody there? Date: 7 Feb 1995 05:46:49 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 3 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <199502071346.FAA00686@net.bio.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net I was trying to join the Menopaus group - has anyone any news of them? Or just tell me what to do with awful hot flashes. Eva.Durant@mailhost.mcc.ac.uk From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Mon Feb 06 22:00:00 1995 Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Path: biosci!newshost.lanl.gov!news.ttu.edu!aurora.LaTech.edu!darwin.sura.net!nih-csl!helix!hatanpaa From: hatanpaa@helix (Kimmo Hatanpaa) Subject: Re: free radicals do not cause ageing. Message-ID: <1995Feb7.080909.14271@alw.nih.gov> Sender: postman@alw.nih.gov (AMDS Postmaster) Organization: National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 08:09:09 GMT Lines: 56 Chris Driver wrote: >The free radical theory has been around for nearly five decades now. Time >enough for workers to tie it down and develop commercial anti-oxidants >which will substantially extend human lifespan. This has not happened. I think you made a very good point here. It seems clear to me that the most popular version of the free radical theory of aging, as presented by the media and vitamin industry, and promoting antioxidants as the fountain of youth, is false. In response to Chris Driver, Peter Proctor wrote: >See my review in CRC Handbook of Free Radicals >and Antioxidants, vol 1, 1989. Hundreds of diseases. IMHO, the >expression " Free Radical Pahology " is redundant. > >As for atherosclerosis, cancer, etc. The vast majority of the people >reading this post will die of a free radical-related disease. It is very easy to suggest, e.g. in the discussion of a scientific paper, that a certain disease may be caused by free radicals. Because of the elusive and ubiquitous nature of free radicals, it would be very difficult for anyone to prove the author wrong. If you want to be absolutely sure that your hypothesis can never be proven wrong, you can always say that free radicals "may be involved" in the pathogenesis of the disease. It is a lot easier to say that than to say: "In conclusion, we really don't have a clue what causes this disease." >Don't confuse the experimental difficulties and the limitations >of ( e.g., ) antioxidant supplimentation with evidence against >a role for free radiacals in aging. We may be looking at the wrong >thing. E.g., antioxidants may not work in mitochondrial radical-induced >aging. Mitochondria would certainly be the first place look for free radical induced damage. But the evidence for such damage occurring at a significant level in aging is still missing. It was recently shown by Hayashi et al. (J Biol Chem, 269(9):6878- 6883, 1994) with a very neat experiment that the age-related mitochondrial hypofunction found in human skin fibroblasts is not caused by defects in the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). Intercellular transfer of HeLa nuclear genome to fibroblasts from an aged donor restored the activity of the mitochondrial enzyme cytochrome oxidase (COX), a marker of mitochondrial function. Also, transfers of mtDNA from old and young subjects to HeLa cells that don't have mtDNA showed that mtDNA from old subject was functionally intact. The levels of COX activity and synthesis of mitochondrial proteins was the same, irrespective of whether the mtDNA was from aged or fetal donors. Kimmo Hatanpaa, M.D. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Mon Feb 06 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!daresbury!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!dundee.ac.uk!pathol4 From: (k.c.breen@dundee.ac.uk) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Research Studentship Followup-To: bionet.molbio.ageing Date: 6 Feb 1995 17:46:26 GMT Organization: The University, Dundee, DD1 4HN, Scotland, UK. Lines: 34 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3h5n9i$n7p@dux.dundee.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pathol4.medschool.dundee.ac.uk POSTGRADUATE STUDENTSHIP IN PHARMACOLOGY Applications are invited for a postgraduate studentship, funded by the Association for International Cancer Research, in a multi-disciplinary neuroglycobiology laboratory located in the Department of Pharmacology, University of Dundee. The 3 year studentship will examine the molecular biology of glycosyltransferase enzymes and the functional results of their altered expression in tumor cell lines. Applications are invited from candidates who expect to gain a first or upper-second class degree and although experience in the techniques of molecular biology would be advantageous, training will be provided where necessary. Ninewells Hospital Medical School is situated on the Tay estuary and is surrounded by beautiful countryside which provides excellent opportunities for a variety of outdoor activities. The cost of living is one of the lowest, and the standard of living one of the highest in the U.K. Applications, in the form of a detailed CV with the names of two referees should be sent as soon as possible to Dr. Kieran Breen, Dept. of Pharmacology and Clinical Pharmacology, University of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Medical School, Dundee DD1 9SY, Scotland, U.K. from whom further details may be obtained (tel. 01382-633900 ext. 2522; e-mail: k.c.breen@dundee.ac.uk). Kieran Breen, Dept. of Pharmacology, University of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital & Medical School, Dundee DD1 9SY,Scotland, U.K. k.c.breen@dundee.ac.uk From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Mon Feb 06 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!adam.cc.sunysb.edu!news.sprintlink.net!pipex!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!dundee.ac.uk!pathol4 From: (k.c.breen@dundee.ac.uk) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Research Studentship Followup-To: bionet.molbio.ageing Date: 6 Feb 1995 17:46:26 GMT Organization: The University, Dundee, DD1 4HN, Scotland, UK. Lines: 34 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3h5n9i$n7p@dux.dundee.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pathol4.medschool.dundee.ac.uk POSTGRADUATE STUDENTSHIP IN PHARMACOLOGY Applications are invited for a postgraduate studentship, funded by the Association for International Cancer Research, in a multi-disciplinary neuroglycobiology laboratory located in the Department of Pharmacology, University of Dundee. The 3 year studentship will examine the molecular biology of glycosyltransferase enzymes and the functional results of their altered expression in tumor cell lines. Applications are invited from candidates who expect to gain a first or upper-second class degree and although experience in the techniques of molecular biology would be advantageous, training will be provided where necessary. Ninewells Hospital Medical School is situated on the Tay estuary and is surrounded by beautiful countryside which provides excellent opportunities for a variety of outdoor activities. The cost of living is one of the lowest, and the standard of living one of the highest in the U.K. Applications, in the form of a detailed CV with the names of two referees should be sent as soon as possible to Dr. Kieran Breen, Dept. of Pharmacology and Clinical Pharmacology, University of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Medical School, Dundee DD1 9SY, Scotland, U.K. from whom further details may be obtained (tel. 01382-633900 ext. 2522; e-mail: k.c.breen@dundee.ac.uk). Kieran Breen, Dept. of Pharmacology, University of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital & Medical School, Dundee DD1 9SY,Scotland, U.K. k.c.breen@dundee.ac.uk From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Mon Feb 06 22:00:00 1995 Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Path: biosci!rutgers!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!alf.uwaterloo.ca!watserv2.uwaterloo.ca!cradle.uwaterloo.ca!RMCOHEN From: RMCOHEN@AHS.watstar.uwaterloo.ca Subject: melatonin Message-ID: Lines: 89 Sender: news@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca Nntp-Posting-Host: cradle.uwaterloo.ca Organization: University of Waterloo Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 17:13:55 GMT I was wondering if anyone would care to comment on the following citation and abstract that I pulled off Medline. Is there any reason to doubt the voracity of its claims? The same researchers have published an article in the New York Academy of Sciences, proposing that melatonin has anti-aging properties, possibly due in part to its antioxidant ability. Also, at what amounts does melatonin elicit a toxic response in humans, and what are some of the metabolic, hormonal, or homeostatic disruptions that can occur with prolonged melatonin comsumption in humans? Recent journal references would be of great help. I am aware that melatonin is being studied intensely in conjuction with IL-2 in the prevention of certain cancers. From what I have read, it seems to lower the toxicity associated with IL-2 administration; while concurrently proving to be a statistically significant chemotherapeutic modality in the treatment of cancer. MEDLINE Database, 1987 to date Document Reader

Interactions of the pineal hormone melatonin with oxygen-centered free radicals: a brief review.

Reiter RJ

Department of Cellular and Structural Biology, University of Texas Health Science Center, San Antonio 78284-7762.

Braz J Med Biol Res 26: 1141-55 (1993)

Abstract
Melatonin,N-acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine, is a hormonal product of the pineal gland. Its synthesis is higher at night than during the day in all vertebrates including man. Once melatonin is produced in the pineal gland it is quickly released into the vascular system. The rapid release of melatonin is generally believed to relate to its high lipophilicity which allows it to readily pass through the membrane of the pinealocytes and the endothelial cells which line the capillaries. The result of the nocturnal synthesis and secretion of melatonin is high blood levels at night. Also because of its highly lipophilic nature, melatonin from the blood readily escapes into every other bodily fluid and all cells in the body. Until recently it was generally thought that melatonin's action in the organism depended on its exclusive interaction with specific receptors on cells located in discrete locations. Certainly, the interactions of melatonin with these membrane-bound receptors are believed to mediate the endocrine and circadian rhythm effects of melatonin. It was recently discovered, however, that melatonin's primary action may not depend on the previously described membrane receptors. We have found that melatonin is a very potent hydroxyl radical scavenger; free radicals and the hydroxyl radical in particular, because of its very high reactivity, can be extremely damaging to macromolecules in cells. Compared to glutathione and mannitol, two well known free radical scavengers, melatonin is a more powerful scavenger and affords protection of molecules, especially DNA, from oxidative damage. Melatonin's extremely high diffusibility is important for its scavenging action because this feature allows it to enter all cells and every subcellular compartment. Whereas the free radical quenching activity of melatonin does not require a receptor, we also have evidence that it may be bound in the nucleus thereby providing on-site protection to DNA. Besides scavenging the highly toxic hydroxyl radical, melatonin also stimulates glutathione peroxidase activity which metabolizes the precursor of the hydroxyl radical, hydrogen peroxide, to water. Thus, melatonin has at least two means to protect the cell from oxidative damage, i.e., it breaks down hydrogen peroxide to harmless water and, in the event any hydroxyl radicals are formed, melatonin scavenges them. Melatonin may be the premier molecule to protect the organism from oxidative damage.

Mesh Headings

Age Factors
Animal
Circadian Rhythm
DNA Damage
Free Radical Scavengers
Free Radicals
Glutathione Peroxidase*
Human
Hydroxyl Radical*
Melatonin*
Rats
Support, U.S. Gov't, Non-P.H.S.

Unique Identifier: 94184230

Chemical Identifiers (Names)

EC 1.11.1.9 (Glutathione Peroxidase)
(Free Radical Scavengers)
(Free Radicals)
3352-57-6 (Hydroxyl Radical)
73-31-4 (Melatonin)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Tue Feb 07 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: proctorp@delphi.com Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: free radicals do not cause ageing. Date: Tue, 7 Feb 95 21:17:13 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <1995Feb7.080909.14271@alw.nih.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1c.delphi.com X-To: Kimmo Hatanpaa Re: Evidence for free radical involvement Another example of some of the pitfalls of the indirect evidence for free radicals in disease is illustrated by the use of Palosein, the pharmaceutical formulation of superoxide dismutase in veterinary medicine. Veterinarians often use Palosein to treat animals hit by cars. This does not mean that motor vehicles produce damage by free radical mechanisms. Another example: homocysteine, a very potent reducing agent like most antioxidants, is associated with an increased incidence of atherosclerosis in humans. This apparently arises because such agents can reduce oxygen to its radical forms in autoxidation reactions. Dr. Dr. Peter Proctor From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Tue Feb 07 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!netnews.CC.Lehigh.EDU!netnews.CC.Lehigh.EDU!not-for-mail From: x011@Lehigh.EDU Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: melatonin Date: 8 Feb 1995 08:30:32 -0500 Lines: 95 Sender: x011@netnews.CC.Lehigh.EDU Message-ID: <3hah1o$57b9@ns1.CC.Lehigh.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: ns1.cc.lehigh.edu I thought that to much sleep therefore to much melatonin lowered your life span. Ron Blue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article , RMCOHEN@AHS.watstar.uw aterloo.ca writes: > I was wondering if anyone would care to comment on the following >citation and abstract that I pulled off Medline. Is there any reason to >doubt the voracity of its claims? The same researchers have published an >article in the New York Academy of Sciences, proposing that melatonin has >anti-aging properties, possibly due in part to its antioxidant ability. >Also, at what amounts does melatonin elicit a toxic response in humans, and >what are some of the metabolic, hormonal, or homeostatic disruptions that >can occur with prolonged melatonin comsumption in humans? Recent journal >references would be of great help. > I am aware that melatonin is being studied intensely in conjuction >with IL-2 in the prevention of certain cancers. From what I have read, it >seems to lower the toxicity associated with IL-2 administration; while >concurrently proving to be a statistically significant chemotherapeutic >modality in the treatment of cancer. > >MEDLINE Database, 1987 to date Document Reader >

>Interactions of the pineal hormone melatonin with oxygen-centered free >radicals: a brief review. >

>Reiter RJ >

>Department of Cellular and Structural Biology, University of Texas >Health Science Center, San Antonio 78284-7762. >

>Braz J Med Biol Res 26: 1141-55 (1993) >

Abstract
>Melatonin,N-acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine, is a hormonal product of the >pineal gland. Its synthesis is higher at night than during the day in >all vertebrates including man. Once melatonin is produced in the pineal >gland it is quickly released into the vascular system. The rapid release >of melatonin is generally believed to relate to its high lipophilicity >which allows it to readily pass through the membrane of the pinealocytes >and the endothelial cells which line the capillaries. The result of the >nocturnal synthesis and secretion of melatonin is high blood levels at >night. Also because of its highly lipophilic nature, melatonin from the >blood readily escapes into every other bodily fluid and all cells in the >body. Until recently it was generally thought that melatonin's action >in the organism depended on its exclusive interaction with specific >receptors on cells located in discrete locations. Certainly, the >interactions of melatonin with these membrane-bound receptors are >believed to mediate the endocrine and circadian rhythm effects of >melatonin. It was recently discovered, however, that melatonin's primary >action may not depend on the previously described membrane receptors. >We have found that melatonin is a very potent hydroxyl radical >scavenger; free radicals and the hydroxyl radical in particular, because >of its very high reactivity, can be extremely damaging to >macromolecules in cells. Compared to glutathione and mannitol, two well >known free radical scavengers, melatonin is a more powerful scavenger >and affords protection of molecules, especially DNA, from oxidative >damage. Melatonin's extremely high diffusibility is important for its >scavenging action because this feature allows it to enter all cells and >every subcellular compartment. Whereas the free radical quenching >activity of melatonin does not require a receptor, we also have evidence >that it may be bound in the nucleus thereby providing on-site >protection to DNA. Besides scavenging the highly toxic hydroxyl radical, >melatonin also stimulates glutathione peroxidase activity which >metabolizes the precursor of the hydroxyl radical, hydrogen peroxide, to >water. Thus, melatonin has at least two means to protect the cell from >oxidative damage, i.e., it breaks down hydrogen peroxide to harmless >water and, in the event any hydroxyl radicals are formed, melatonin >scavenges them. Melatonin may be the premier molecule to protect the >organism from oxidative damage. >

Mesh Headings

>
Age Factors
>
Animal
>
Circadian Rhythm
>
DNA Damage
>
Free Radical Scavengers
>
Free Radicals
>
Glutathione Peroxidase*
>
Human
>
Hydroxyl Radical*
>
Melatonin*
>
Rats
>
Support, U.S. Gov't, Non-P.H.S.
>

Unique Identifier: >94184230 >

Chemical Identifiers (Names)

>
EC 1.11.1.9 (Glutathione Peroxidase)
>
(Free Radical Scavengers)
>
(Free Radicals)
>
3352-57-6 (Hydroxyl Radical)
>
73-31-4 (Melatonin)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Tue Feb 07 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!TENET.EDU!dashley From: dashley@TENET.EDU (Don Ashley) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: melatonin Date: 8 Feb 1995 07:51:49 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 12 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <3hah1o$57b9@ns1.CC.Lehigh.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net This is a request for any stats that suggest shortening lifespan such as: too much sleep not enough exercise, vegtables, etc. stress dangerous driving over-consumption, over-exposure, etc. high risk activities sky-diving trolling in questionable neighborhoods etc. Don From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Wed Feb 08 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!rutgers!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!netaxs.com!prophit From: prophit@netaxs.com (christian hartleben) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: free radicals do not cause ageing. Date: 9 Feb 1995 21:51:33 GMT Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3he2p5$97v@netaxs.com> References: <1995Feb7.080909.14271@alw.nih.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: unix1.netaxs.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] : Chris Driver wrote: : >The free radical theory has been around for nearly five decades now. Time : >enough for workers to tie it down and develop commercial anti-oxidants : >which will substantially extend human lifespan. This has not happened. Free radicals may become so through exposure to solar or anthropogenic sources of ultraviolet radiation. The damage "caused" by free radicals is actually caused by exposure of the skin to wavelengths of light which add energy to molecules which selectively are affected, owing to their electron shell configurations. Free radicals are a sink for the energy. They will form, they will amass energy hostile to the organism, but it is the sun that "causes" the ageing. prophit From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Wed Feb 08 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: sforsgren@aol.com (SForsgren) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: CORTISOL - GH3 - GeroVita GH3 - KH3 Procaine Date: 8 Feb 1995 19:33:38 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 10 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3hbnt2$ls2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: sforsgren@aol.com (SForsgren) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Has anyone tried Procaine therapy? Did it help? I have taken a product called Gerovital H3 which is DMAE and PABA, but I have read that it really is not effective like the real GH3 or KH3. Any comments appreciate... ******************************************************** Power comes through the sharing of knowledge. Show your power! Scott Forsgren ********************************************************* From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Wed Feb 08 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!agate!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!caen!night.primate.wisc.edu!nntp.msstate.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!shaman.nexagen.com!mac-p45-12.nexagen.com!user From: cordell@shaman.nexagen.com (Bruce R Cordell) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Melatonin available as supplement Date: Wed, 08 Feb 1995 14:27:13 -0700 Organization: NeXagen, Inc. Lines: 8 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: mac-p45-12.nexagen.com A question pops into my head upon reading what seems to indicate extreme antioxidant capibilities of Melatonin: is melatonin available as a dietary supplement, and if not, what would it take produce such a supplement? Thanks! Bruce R Cordell cordell@shaman.nexagen.com From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Wed Feb 08 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!RICE.EDU!mrg From: mrg@RICE.EDU (Mark Gardner) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Test - Correct Address? Date: 9 Feb 1995 11:59:07 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 2 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9502091959.AA07616@moe.rice.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net This is a test to see if I have the right address. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Wed Feb 08 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!ilr.rc.ac.ru!gavrilov From: gavrilov@ilr.rc.ac.ru ("Leonid Gavrilov") Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: To Asian/Oceanian Colleagues Date: 9 Feb 1995 01:58:26 -0800 Organization: A.N.Belozersky Institute, Moscow State University Lines: 152 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <2f37f056.ilr@ilr.rc.ac.ru> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Dear Asian/Oceanian Colleagues, Recently our gerontological research group in Russia have made some scientific discoveries which we are going to present at 5th Asia/Oceania Regional Congress of Gerontology (19-23 November, 1995, Hong Kong). We have submitted our results to the Gerontological Congress in the form of two abstracts printed below: 1. HUMAN LONGEVITY GENES ARE LOCATED IN X-CHROMOSOME 2. BIOMEDICAL BASIS OF SEX DIFFERENTIAL IN HUMAN LIFE SPAN. Your comments on these abstracts would be greatly appreciated. Unfortunately we did not get fax connection so far to the Scientific Secretariat of the Congress (fax: (852) 519-8072) from Moscow. Would it be possible to pass our abstracts to the Organizing Committee of the Congress and to ask them for their E-mail address in view of communication problems by fax and regular mail ? Thank you in advance for your kindness. Sincerely yours, Dr.Leonid A.Gavrilov, Ph.D. ************************************************************************** TO: Scientific Secretariat of the 5TH ASIA/OCEANIA REGIONAL CONGRESS OF GERONTOLOGY c/o Gardiner-Caldwell Communications Ltd. 2403 Tung Wai Commercial Building 109-111 Gloucester Road, Wanchai Hong Kong Fax: (852) 519-8072 FROM: Dr. Leonid A.Gavrilov,Ph.D. A.N.Belozersky Institute Moscow State University Moscow 119899, Russia Fax: 7 (095) 939-0338 or 7 (095) 939-3181 February 8, 1995 Dear Colleagues, Please find printed below two abstracts submitted to the Congress of Gerontology: 1. HUMAN LONGEVITY GENES ARE LOCATED IN X-CHROMOSOME 2. BIOMEDICAL BASIS OF SEX DIFFERENTIAL IN HUMAN LIFE SPAN. Copies of these abstracts were also sent by regular mail. Would it be possible to acknowledge the receipt of this message to my fax numbers in Moscow: 7 (095) 939-3181 and 7 (095) 939-0338 and to my E-mail addresses: aeiveos@glas.apc.org gavrilov@ilr.rc.ac.ru I would also greatly appreciate your electronic mail addresses for rapid and reliable communication since it is very difficult to get fax connection from Russia to Hong Kong. Thank you in advance for your kindness. Sincerely yours, Dr.Leonid A.Gavrilov ______________________________________________________________________ *Subject/field of interest code : 2 | 0 HUMAN LONGEVITY GENES ARE LOCATED IN X-CHROMOSOME. L.A. Gavrilov, N.S. Gavrilova, V.G. Semyonova, A.L. Gavrilova, N.N. Evdokushkina, N.P. Snarskaya, A.N.Belozersky Institute, Moscow State University, Moscow 119899, Russia and R.J.Bradbury, Aeiveos Corporation, Seattle, USA. The purpose of the study is to locate the longevity genes in human genome. If these genes are located in X-chromosome, then age-related accumulation of mutational load in paternal germ cells should result in decrease of longevity among daughters only (since paternal X- chromosome is inherited by daughters only). Thus, the purpose of the study was to check the prediction of the above mentioned hypothesis that paternal age at reproduction should be associated with specific decrease of daughter's longevity. Information on longevity of sons and daughters combined with information on paternal age at reproduction was extracted from genealogical publications and biographic dictionaries. The data (for more than 3,000 sons and 2,000 daughters) were computerized and sorted by paternal age at reproduction. Then the mean life span for sons and daughters was calculated for different paternal ages and the statistical analysis was made by standard methods (Student test). It was found that longevity of the sons is the same for different paternal age subgroups. Quite different result is observed for daughters: mean life span of the daughters born by old fathers (50-59 years) was significantly lower than for daughters born by young fathers (20- 29 years). The difference in mean life span between these two groups is more than 6 years and this difference is statistically highly significant (p<0.01). The obtained results support the prediction of the hypothesis that human longevity genes are located in X-chromosome. That is why the accumulation of mutational load in germ cells of old fathers is detrimental for longevity of daughters only. _______________________________________________________________________ *Subject/field of interest code : 1 | 9 BIOMEDICAL BASIS OF SEX DIFFERENTIAL IN HUMAN LIFE SPAN N.S.Gavrilova, V.G.Semyonova, L.A.Gavrilov, A.L.Gavrilova, E.V.Lapshin, N.P.Snarskaya, G.N.Evdokushkina, Institute for System Analysis, Russian Academy of Sciences, pr.60 Let Oktyabrya, 9, Moscow, 117312, Russia The purpose of the study is to understand why women live longer than men. If gender gap is caused by higher genetic redundancy of women's genome (two X-chromosomes) then accumulation of mutational load in one of the female X-chromosomes should result in decrease of sex differential in human lifespan. Thus, the purpose of the study was to check the prediction of the above mentioned hypothesis that paternal age at reproduction should be associated with decrease of the gender gap in human longevity (through introduction of genetic load into female X-chromosome). Data on longevity of men and women combined with data on paternal age at their birth were extracted from genealogical publications and biographic dictionaries. The data (for more than 3,000 males and 2,000 females) were computerized and sorted by paternal age at their birth. Then the mean gender gap in longevity was calculated for different paternal ages and the statistical analysis was made by standard methods (Student test). It was found that gender gap in longevity is a function of paternal age: the highest gender gap is observed for the offspring of young fathers (20-29 years), while for the offspring of old fathers (50-59 years) women DO NOT live longer than men. The obtained results support the prediction of the hypothesis that gender gap in human longevity is caused by higher genetic redundancy of women's genome (two X-chromosomes). The research described in this abstract was made possible in part by Grants N7X000, M7E000 and SBI000 from the International Science Foundation and by INTAS Grant 93- 1617. __________________________________________________________________________ From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 09 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!news.cs.utah.edu!news.cc.utah.edu!corona!patrick From: Patrick O'Neil Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,bionet.molbio.bio-matrix,bionet.molbio.embldatabank,bionet.molbio.evolution,bionet.molbio.gdb,bionet.molbio.gene-linkage,bionet.molbio.genome-program,bionet.molbio.hiv,bionet.molbio.rapd,bionet.molbio.yeast Subject: Re: controversies & ethics Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 23:28:35 -0700 Organization: University Of Utah Computer Center Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: corona.med.utah.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1267 bionet.molbio.bio-matrix:553 bionet.molbio.embldatabank:450 bionet.molbio.evolution:2429 bionet.molbio.gdb:295 bionet.molbio.gene-linkage:543 bionet.molbio.genome-program:1178 bionet.molbio.hiv:887 bionet.molbio.rapd:972 bionet.molbio.yeast:2369 On Mon, 30 Jan 1995, Phandaal wrote: > I've been asked to give a lecture to upper-division college students on > the controversies and ethical considerations in producing transgenic > organisms, especially transgenic plants. It's been a while since I gave > this lecture, and so I was wondering if anybody had any good examples of > controversies or ethical considerations that I could incorporate into the > talk. I spent a year working in a plant molec bio lab that was being partially funded by a private company to produce a more fungal resistent sugarbeet. Technically, it would be a transgenic in that a gene, VERY closely related to an already present gene, from Arabidopsis was/is to be introduced into the sugarbeet and overexpressed, thus bolstering the sugarbeet's fungal resistence. I enjoyed the work very much and saw absolutely nothing wrong with it. It was making use of an already existent defensive gene that resides in many plants and simply increasing its output by using an easy to maniplate gene from a common lab plant. This sugarbeet will allow, hopefully, less use of chemical fungicides. You could argue that it will simply apply selective pressure for fungi to evolve resistence...but then, so does the use of fungicides or natural defenses. A more resistent fungi will, conversely, select for more fungal-resistent plants. This can be applied to your first point below too. > > Two I can think of off-hand are: > > 1) introducing insecticidal proteins (such as the Bacillus thuringiensis > protein) into plants may create resistant insect populations (under the > force of heavy selection pressure), which could then overrun the resistant > plants and make worthless the efforts by conventional growers who *use* Bt > protein as a topical pesticidal spray. The use of the spray itself puts selective pressure on insects to develop resistence. The point is moot. > > 2) altering fatty acid metabolism in oil-crops (like canola) so that they > produce oils found chiefly in palm and coconut could severely damage the > palm oil and coconut oil industries in Third World countries... thus > severely depressing the economies of these already struggling countries. If business was nice, then companies would never be put out of business. It may be tough but I could not support artificially supporting a weakly-based economy by ignoring a possible economic boon here. Any economy that ties itself to one commodity is *automatically* doomed to bite it pretty hard. Look at Louisiana and the effects of it having placed all its economic eggs in the oil business basket -- the state is only now beginning to recover from over a decade of depressed economy and hard times. Patrick From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 09 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!TENET.EDU!dashley From: dashley@TENET.EDU (Don Ashley) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: Immunology and Aging Date: 10 Feb 1995 03:13:43 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 19 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <3helln$r6c@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Aaron and all else, Please put me on your mailing list to receive same info. dashley@tenet.edu On 10 Feb 1995, Aaron Barton wrote: > I am currently working towrds my Masters in research and as a > stipulation to my degree I have to attend and present recent data on the > impact of the immunological changes seen in aging and how it may relate > to the aging process. I would like to correspond with anyone who has > done research in this area to discuss recent information pertaining to > the effects of decreasing immunocompetence and its relationship to the > aging process. > > A. Barton > Saint Louis University > AwBarton@ix.netcom.com > > From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 09 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!news.cs.utah.edu!news.cc.utah.edu!corona!patrick From: Patrick O'Neil Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: Info needed on G3PD Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 23:12:39 -0700 Organization: University Of Utah Computer Center Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3ge9hs$e39@mace.cc.purdue.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: corona.med.utah.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <3ge9hs$e39@mace.cc.purdue.edu> On 28 Jan 1995, Barani wrote: > I am looking forward to any information towards structural aspects > or biochemical activity changes of Glyceraldehyde-3(?)-phosphate- > dehydrogenase or its derivative enzymes that are involved in muscular > activities in the heart. Has there been any work on any conformational > changes or loss of activity of this enzyme in heart-patients? I > strongly presume that there is. I am just curious as to why you strongly presume GAPDH loss of function/reduced function for this glycolysis enzyme? Loss of function of this enzyme would effectively stop glycolysis and both the aerobic and anaerobic metabolism...they wouldn't just have a heart problem, they would be dead. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 09 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!rutgers!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!news.cs.utah.edu!news.cc.utah.edu!corona!patrick From: Patrick O'Neil Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: cells counting off in culture Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 22:47:25 -0700 Organization: University Of Utah Computer Center Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3fet61$4qu@elaine2.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: corona.med.utah.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <3fet61$4qu@elaine2.Stanford.EDU> On 16 Jan 1995, Michael J Conboy wrote: > Look in the December twenty-something, 1994 issue of Science > (telomerase activity and immortal cells) and the October 21 issue (a > great paper on the cloning of a yeast telomerase component). > It is my understanding that telomers need only be maintained, not increased or regenerated, as part of cell imortalization. In and of itself, telomerase activity would not be necessary AND sufficient to lead to immortalization. In any case, I am working with transgenic mice right now and have entertained the prospect of simply inserting a telomerase gene construct that expresses at a low, but constituitive rate to see what happens -- or tie it to an inducible promoter so that I could turn it on or off with galactose injections or something. Since my lab works in cancer research, using transgenic mice, perhaps I could talk my PI into accepting the experiment. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 09 22:00:00 1995 Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing From: John@longevb.demon.co.uk (John de Rivaz) Path: biosci!rutgers!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!peernews.demon.co.uk!longevb.demon.co.uk!John Subject: Re: Melatonin available as supplement References: Organization: Myorganisation Reply-To: John@longevb.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7 Lines: 27 X-Posting-Host: longevb.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 07:47:11 +0000 Message-ID: <142585534wnr@longevb.demon.co.uk> Sender: usenet@demon.co.uk In article: cordell@shaman.nexagen.com (Bruce R Cordell) writes: > > A question pops into my head upon reading what seems to indicate extreme > antioxidant capibilities of Melatonin: is melatonin available as a dietary > supplement, and if not, what would it take produce such a supplement? > > Thanks! > > Bruce R Cordell > cordell@shaman.nexagen.com It is available from several sources. One is the Life Extension Foundation, whose details are available by email for JHammell@ix.netcom.com -- Sincerely, **************************************** * Publisher of Longevity Report * John de Rivaz * Fractal Report * * details on request * **************************************** **** What is the point of life if it ends in death? **** From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 09 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!rutgers!gatech!swiss.ans.net!prodigy.com!usenet From: BWXF27B@prodigy.com (Larry Sharp) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: ALBUMIN LEVELS Date: 10 Feb 1995 03:34:52 GMT Organization: Prodigy Services Company 1-800-PRODIGY Lines: 4 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3hemss$c28@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> References: <3gp3ma$nmd@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: inugap4.news.prodigy.com X-Newsreader: Version 1.2 There is no such thing as having too high an Albumin level. The normal range is being raised (based on the latest research findings) to 50g/L or 5.0 dg/l. Less than 1% of the population have readings in excess of 50. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 09 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!rutgers!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: AwBarton@ix.netcom.com (Aaron Barton) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Immunology and Aging Date: 10 Feb 1995 03:13:59 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 11 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3helln$r6c@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-stl2-23.ix.netcom.com I am currently working towrds my Masters in research and as a stipulation to my degree I have to attend and present recent data on the impact of the immunological changes seen in aging and how it may relate to the aging process. I would like to correspond with anyone who has done research in this area to discuss recent information pertaining to the effects of decreasing immunocompetence and its relationship to the aging process. A. Barton Saint Louis University AwBarton@ix.netcom.com From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 09 22:00:00 1995 Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Path: biosci!rutgers!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!hole From: hole@netcom.com (Will Leland) Subject: Re: melatonin Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 02:29:31 GMT Lines: 2 Sender: hole@netcom21.netcom.com FWIW, the author, Reiter, should be coming out with a book this year. -- From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 09 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!satisfied.elf.com!news2.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: proctorp@delphi.com Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: free radicals do not cause ageing. Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 20:11:16 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <1995Feb7.080909.14271@alw.nih.gov> <3he2p5$97v@netaxs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1d.delphi.com X-To: christian hartleben Re: Radicals and skin aging Actually, UV light that penetrates the atmosphere and gets through the dead upper layers of skin does not have the energy to form free radicals. The mechanism if rather formation of thymine dimers and singlet oxygen ( which can form radicals ). PHP From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 09 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!news.cs.utah.edu!news.cc.utah.edu!corona!patrick From: Patrick O'Neil Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: Free Radicals, more constraints Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 23:33:21 -0700 Organization: University Of Utah Computer Center Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3gdssj$4ihn@ns1.CC.Lehigh.EDU> <3gk0vg$22a@elaine36.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: corona.med.utah.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <3gk0vg$22a@elaine36.Stanford.EDU> On 30 Jan 1995, Michael J Conboy wrote: > Might it not be possible > that biochemical reactions require free radicals to produce those > intermediate steps? Radicals are required for a number of biochemical reactions. Nucleic acid biosynthesis depends upon free radicals. The immune system chemical nitric oxide operates by free radical means. Simple metabolism unavoidably produces radicals as a matter of course. If they were eliminated, metabolism would cease. The problem is uncontrolled radicals. Those are damaging. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 09 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!news.cs.utah.edu!news.cc.utah.edu!corona!patrick From: Patrick O'Neil Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,bionet.molbio.bio-matrix,bionet.molbio.embldatabank,bionet.molbio.evolution,bionet.molbio.gdb,bionet.molbio.gene-linkage,bionet.molbio.genome-program,bionet.molbio.hiv,bionet.molbio.rapd,bionet.molbio.yeast Subject: Re: controversies & ethics Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 23:44:24 -0700 Organization: University Of Utah Computer Center Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3gk3au$pdp@rebecca.albany.edu> <3gm7u9$t5e@nntp1.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: corona.med.utah.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <3gm7u9$t5e@nntp1.u.washington.edu> Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1269 bionet.molbio.bio-matrix:554 bionet.molbio.embldatabank:451 bionet.molbio.evolution:2430 bionet.molbio.gdb:296 bionet.molbio.gene-linkage:544 bionet.molbio.genome-program:1179 bionet.molbio.hiv:888 bionet.molbio.rapd:973 bionet.molbio.yeast:2370 On 31 Jan 1995, Jared Roach wrote: > 2) The human race as a whole (or national governments, or > individuals) is slow to reach consensus on ethical issues (i.e. > religion, abortion, the creation of new species, etc.) Science > should slow its pace of discovery to allow Ethics to catch up. I could never go along with this point. What, tell us all that we should quit looking at this? Stop research concerning that? Take up a new trade, like house painting? I do and will continue to study and learn just as quickly as I am physically capable. I could never say, "well, that result sure does point to a VERY exciting, very interesting, line of research that would increase my understanding of x. Well, maybe I'll just cool my jets and let it go for a decade or so. Sure don't want to upset those who can't handle the fast pace of scientific understanding." In any case, it is a pointless thought since if this or that or those countries stopped research on x, then some other country or group would take it up because there would be a possible economic boon tied to it. If not us, then someone else. Humans have never and will never all agree to the same extent on ANYTHING. I would go to any location that would support what I am interested in researching, be it transgenics or gene therapy, etc. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 09 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!news.cs.utah.edu!news.cc.utah.edu!corona!patrick From: Patrick O'Neil Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,bionet.molbio.bio-matrix,bionet.molbio.embldatabank,bionet.molbio.evolution,bionet.molbio.gdb,bionet.molbio.genome-program,bionet.molbio.hiv,bionet.molbio.rapd,bionet.molbio.yeast,bionet.molbio.gene-linkage Subject: Re: controversies & ethics Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 23:52:53 -0700 Organization: University Of Utah Computer Center Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3gk3au$pdp@rebecca.albany.edu> <3gm7u9$t5e@nntp1.u.washington.edu> <3gml85$fb5@rebecca.albany.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: corona.med.utah.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1270 bionet.molbio.bio-matrix:555 bionet.molbio.embldatabank:452 bionet.molbio.evolution:2431 bionet.molbio.gdb:297 bionet.molbio.genome-program:1180 bionet.molbio.hiv:889 bionet.molbio.rapd:974 bionet.molbio.yeast:2371 bionet.molbio.gene-linkage:545 On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, Howard M. Bomze wrote: > Steve Bonne has been saying that there are no new ethical > considerations for agricultural biotechnologies. However, he has been > missing one very important one, that is the possibility of an engineered > gene to be transfered to a different species. This already happens in nature by various means, one of which is viral. There is no absolute genetic sanctity in nature. As for transgenics, especially in plants, one tool for introducing foreign genes is agrobacteria. This microbe is fully capable of vectoring interspecific DNA without lab manipulation. The DNA so introduced in the lab does not carry any special DNA destabilizer, rather, it depends on the rather scattershot and low-yield natural method of homologous recombination or illegitimate recombination. Another method has absolutely no danger of transfering a new DNA transfer method to nature: the gene gun. DNA of interest bound to microscopic gold beads and shot into cells offers absolutely no threat of tranfering into an uncontrollable means of interspecific gene transfer in the wild. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Thu Feb 09 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!daresbury!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!agate!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail From: cpatil@leland.Stanford.EDU (Christopher Kashinath Patil) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: Melatonin available as supplement Date: 10 Feb 1995 11:55:37 -0800 Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA Lines: 42 Message-ID: <3hggbp$l62@adelbert8.Stanford.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: adelbert8.stanford.edu In article , Bruce R Cordell wrote: >A question pops into my head upon reading what seems to indicate extreme >antioxidant capibilities of Melatonin: is melatonin available as a dietary >supplement, and if not, what would it take produce such a supplement? Melatonin (M) is available at pharmacies and health food stores (at least in Northern California) in the form of 0.3 mg pills at a cost of about $0.10 per pill. The high-affinity melatonin receptor was just cloned and characterized by a group at Harvard, and they have shown that the Kd of M's association with its receptor is of the order 10^-9 M, so that nanomolar serum concentrations should saturate the receptors. I have no idea about the pharmacokinetics of orally administered M, so I have no clue what physiologically relevant doses might be. Other results, published in the Brazilian Journal of something (and I think just posted to this group recently), suggest that M might exert some cellular effects by crossing membranes directly, in which case the kinetics of receptor binding become less relevant to the calculation of effective doses. The reason why I'm thinking about this lately is that I personally just started taking one pill each night (as a sleep aid and cure for mild seasonal affective disorder) consistently for the past month. In this poorly controlled experi- ment, in which the placebo effect probably masks all other effects :-) I have observed: - better sleep - more immediate onset of sleep - slightly more difficulty getting up in the morning - slightly less depression at the prospect of a gray day If anyone is interested, I can find the address of the company that produces my melatonin and forward it to them. Just let me know. -- Chris Patil Stanford University cpatil@leland.stanford.edu Department of Biological Sciences "That in our day such giant shadows are cast by such pygmies only shows how late in the day it has become." -- Chargaff, referring to Watson & Crick From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sat Feb 11 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!news.cs.utah.edu!news.cc.utah.edu!corona!patrick From: Patrick O'Neil Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,sci.life-extension,sci.cryonics Subject: Re: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:18:11 -0700 Organization: University Of Utah Computer Center Lines: 84 Message-ID: References: <518812340wnr@longevb.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: corona.med.utah.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <518812340wnr@longevb.demon.co.uk> Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1276 sci.life-extension:3644 sci.cryonics:1565 On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, John de Rivaz wrote: > I have been asked to gather information on attitudes of optimism and > resistance to life extension by genetic programming. > > In addition to discussion on these newsgroups [bionet.molbio.ageing, > sci.life-extension, sci.cryonics] we need to know if there are any other > newsgroups who would provide intelligent non-emotional arguments about > it, for and against. I had some problems with our server so I don't know if this is redundant but here goes (again): I have spent a lot of time considering the possibilities of life extension mediated by genetic engineering or, more likely, biological manipulation. I cannot deny an attraction to a much longer youth filled with ever more experiences and learning (perhaps a few Ph.D's?) but... Conversely, I have considered the wideer ramifications of such manipulations and capabilities and have come to the conclusion that significant life extension in general would be disastrous. The worl population is already booming and there is concern about the environment and available resources for the ever-growing minions. Let's say that the ability to extend human lifespan by 40 or 50 years was developed. Right now, in developed nations, there are about 4 simultaneous generations alive at any one moment. With a general life extension of that I mentioned in existence and in use, this would lead to an instant increase in the number of generations to 5 or 5.5. If people continue haveing 2 to 2.5 kids per household in developed nations, that adds several billion extra people to the population load within one generation - above and beyond what is already occurring. If this technology isn't made equally available to developing nations, where the vast bulk of over-reproduction occurs, then you set up just another tension point to those that already exist. These over-reproducing developing nations, living longer lives due to the life extension tech made available would REALLY explode the population and the stress on natural resources and open spaces, and endangered species. The only remedy to all this is if EVERYONE accepted very strict, worldwide birthcontrol regulations. How likely is that? The earth is a finite space with finite resources. How do you support billions upon billions of extra mouths, extra consumers, extra environment degraders? You cannot. Our economies couldn't handle it either. Right now in the USA with our growing economy (producing predominantly low-paying jobs) still sees an unemployment rate of 5%. Though economists see this number as the minimum desireable to support economic growth and job mobility, it would skyrocket if you suddenly added billions more to the human resource population. What if grandpa can productively work for 20 years longer than is now possible? What happens to the many young people just entering the job market? There would be no room for them. You either have to force people to quit working, even though they are still very capable, or you have to hold off hiring the young. Either way some group has to then be supported. Open areas and wilderness areas that support diverse other species are already under pressure from the growing population. They wouldn't stand a chance if billions upon billions are suddenly added (hell, they wouldn't make it if the numbers are added gradually either). Rivers are overdiverted, causing water shortages downstream. Aquifers are being overtapped. Where is the water to come from so as to safeguard the environment. If you say, "the ocean with desalination plants" that is NOT an answer either - not in the long run. Billions and billions of people...that is a lot of water to take from the ocean with the concomittent pile-up of vast salt extracts. What do you do with that? You cannpt add it back to the oceans because at this scale you begin to increase the salinity of the ocean which would devestate the life within it. Fisheries are overfished, and arable land is limited. Where does the food come from? Significant life extension is not tenable, at least not until (and IF) we begin to colonize space or other planets...how far off is THAT? In such circumstances, billions of people with longer lifespans might not hurt and might even be a benefit. Until then, the planet, its biosphere, its natural resources, and our societies and economies cannot handle the results of significant life extension. ( I would NEVER support it for only those who can afford and exhorbitant price for it either) Unless there is another planet sitting around for us to expand onto, or unless everyone will accept strict population control methods, then it cannot work. The problems are the same, to varying lessor extents if you are only considering minor life extensions. Patrick From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sat Feb 11 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!newshost.lanl.gov!news.ttu.edu!seas.smu.edu!convex!insosf1.infonet.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news1.wolfe.net!infoman.net99.net!news From: pls@ramp.com (Paul Schauble) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: Free Radicals, more constraints Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 06:29:20 -0500 Organization: Network 99, Inc. Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <3gdssj$4ihn@ns1.CC.Lehigh.EDU> <3gk0vg$22a@elaine36.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: gn2.getnet.com In article , xdcrlab@quake.net (Mike Davis) wrote: > Low cost arginine(amino pentaguanidic acid) is available stateside. I > will email a source to those requesting. > Please. ++PLS From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sat Feb 11 22:00:00 1995 Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,sci.life-extension,sci.cryonics From: John@longevb.demon.co.uk (John de Rivaz) Path: biosci!bcm!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!peernews.demon.co.uk!longevb.demon.co.uk!John Subject: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering Organization: Myorganisation Reply-To: John@longevb.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7 Lines: 19 X-Posting-Host: longevb.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 08:19:35 +0000 Message-ID: <518812340wnr@longevb.demon.co.uk> Sender: usenet@demon.co.uk Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1274 sci.life-extension:3641 sci.cryonics:1564 I have been asked to gather information on attitudes of optimism and resistance to life extension by genetic programming. In addition to discussion on these newsgroups [bionet.molbio.ageing, sci.life-extension, sci.cryonics] we need to know if there are any other newsgroups who would provide intelligent non-emotional arguments about it, for and against. -- Sincerely, **************************************** * Publisher of Longevity Report * John de Rivaz * Fractal Report * * details on request * **************************************** **** What is the point of life if it ends in death? **** From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sat Feb 11 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!bcm!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!heifetz.msen.com!emory!cs.utk.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!ronald-waters-2.msfc.nasa.gov!not-for-mail From: waterrd@mins2.msfc.nasa.gov (Ronald D. Waters) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Is there a FAQ? / General aging research info Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 12:37:18 Organization: NASA/MSFC Lines: 10 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ronald-waters-2.msfc.nasa.gov X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A] I'm new to the group and would like to be pointed toward some info on the methods/progress/potential for aging research. I'm currently taking an undergraduate biochemistry course, but don't much else about the [molecular biology] field, so would prefer that the info is "entry- level". Thanks in advance, Ronald Waters From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sat Feb 11 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!rutgers!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!caen!msunews!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!newsman.csu.murdoch.edu.au!jbraks From: jbraks@csu.murdoch.edu.au (J.B.) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: deprenyl Date: 11 Feb 1995 05:01:44 GMT Lines: 4 Message-ID: <3hhgboINN13f@newsman.murdoch.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: cleo.murdoch.edu.au A book called 'smart drugs II' claims that deprenyl increases the life of mice by 40%. The authors say that this will probably happens to humans too. Is this true ? From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 12 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!rutgers!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.bluesky.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.mathworks.com!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!eru.mt.luth.se!news.kth.se!mumrik.nada.kth.se!nv91-asa From: nv91-asa@mumrik.nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,sci.life-extension,sci.cryonics Subject: Re: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering Date: 13 Feb 1995 16:49:23 GMT Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <518812340wnr@longevb.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: mumrik.nada.kth.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-reply-to: John@longevb.demon.co.uk's message of Sun, 12 Feb 1995 08:19:35 +0000 Originator: nv91-asa@mumrik.nada.kth.se Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1285 sci.life-extension:3669 sci.cryonics:1575 John de Rivaz wrote: >I have been asked to gather information on attitudes of optimism and >resistance to life extension by genetic programming. (I assume you mean genetic engineering, not genetic programming which is something completely different). I would say I'm optimistic about the technical possibilities, once we overcome most of our rather irrational resistance against modifying the human genome. Some possibilities (which I really would like to hear comments about): Increasing expression of superoxide-dismutase and other anti-oxidation enzymes; this will make the body more resistant to free radicals, environmental dangers and perhaps slow aging somewhat. Increase of DNA correction rate by increasing expression of repair enzymes These two methods don't appear that hard to use, since we only need to create more copies or promoters for the genes (evolution haven't done this, since it would require more energy (which we humans have plenty of) and long lifespan is normally not selected for). If the telomer-theory of cell death is true, then improvements of telomerase activity would also prolong the lifespan. However, this may require some careful design, since it would also increase the risk of cancer (this should preferably be used together with promotion of DNA repair enzymes and anti- oncogenes). Are there other useful methods? I'm working right now on a page about possible genetic modifications, and would be grateful for additions. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension! nv91-asa@hemul.nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension! nv91-asa@hemul.nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 12 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!rutgers!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!caen!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!equity.wharton.upenn.edu!rodrig28 From: rodrig28@equity.wharton.upenn.edu (MAYRA RODRIGUEZ) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Adaptive Cookware Date: 13 Feb 1995 19:29:03 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3hobtv$hhk@netnews.upenn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: equity.wharton.upenn.edu Summary: Attractive Cookware to facilitate independent living Keywords: ergonomic cookware X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-upenn1.1] I am working with a company producing adaptive cookware. This cookware was designed with the input of occupational therapists and since the production of the product, the adaptive cookware has been found to be very attractive and practical, particularly for persons with arthritis or with disabilities. If there is anyone interested in finding out more about this cookware or if you are a distributor of such items, please contact me at my e-mail Rodrig28@wharton.upenn.edu. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 12 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!daresbury!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!overload.lbl.gov!ames!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!equity.wharton.upenn.edu!rodrig28 From: rodrig28@equity.wharton.upenn.edu (MAYRA RODRIGUEZ) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Attractive ergonomic cookware Date: 13 Feb 1995 00:15:32 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3hm8b4$n0o@netnews.upenn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: equity.wharton.upenn.edu Summary: Attractive and practical cookware to facilitate independent living Keywords: ergonomic cookware X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-upenn1.1] I am working with a company producing adaptive cookware. This cookware was designed with the input of occupational therapists and since the production of the product, the adaptive cookware has been found to be very attractive and practical, particularly for persons with arthritis or with disabilities. If there is anyone interested in finding out more about about this cookware or if you are a distributor of such items, please contact me at my e-mail Rodrig28@wharton.upenn.edu. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 12 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!rutgers!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!olivea!wetware!hack.dragoman.com!xdcrlab.com!user From: xdcrlab@quake.net (Mike Davis) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: Free Radicals, more constraints Date: 13 Feb 1995 18:11:28 GMT Organization: XdcrLab Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3gdssj$4ihn@ns1.CC.Lehigh.EDU> <3gk0vg$22a@elaine36.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: xdcrlab.com X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b22.0+ In article , pls@ramp.com (Paul Schauble) wrote: > In article , > xdcrlab@quake.net (Mike Davis) wrote: > > Low cost arginine(amino pentaguanidic acid) should be: 2-amino, 5-guanidopentanoic acid. > > is available stateside. I > > will email a source to those requesting. Request via email, thanks. -- Mike Davis))) xdcrlab@quake.net))) Ultrasonic Transducer Solutions "The stupid opinions expressed here are my own and should not be construed as superior to the stupid opinions of others. EITA" From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 12 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!galaxy.ucr.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!scripps.edu!usenet From: "Joseph J. Strout" Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,sci.life-extension,sci.cryonics Subject: Re: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 08:38:00 -0800 (PST) Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, CA Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <518812340wnr@longevb.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: helmholtz.salk.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1283 sci.life-extension:3666 sci.cryonics:1574 On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, Patrick O'Neil wrote: > Conversely, I have considered the wideer ramifications of such > manipulations and capabilities and have come to the conclusion that > significant life extension in general would be disastrous. The worl > population is already booming and there is concern about the environment > and available resources for the ever-growing minions. > ... > Unless there is another planet sitting around for us to expand onto, or > unless everyone will accept strict population control methods, then it > cannot work. The problems are the same, to varying lessor extents if you > are only considering minor life extensions. I think your analysis is essentially correct. Humanity's gestation is nearly over; the difficulty is making sure that Mother Earth does not die due to complications of childbirth. The only long-term solution, of course, is to expand from Earth. As you pointed out, long lives would be benificial given ample room and resources. Fortunately, there are resources aplenty in our home solar system. The gas giants, especially, are rich in energy and raw materials. Of course, the original question was about life extension through biological means, and it is doubtful that such methods will enable people to live on other worlds except in enclosed structures, and this will limit the rate of expansion. Of course, it would take an extremely aggressive emmigration program to counter the growth rate; births will have to be legally restricted, most likely, as they are in China already. The combination of emmigration and birth restriction may succeed in saving Earth -- despite an extended lifespan. ,------------------------------------------------------------------. | Joseph J. Strout Department of Neuroscience, UCSD | | jstrout@ucsd.edu http://sdcc3.ucsd.edu/~jstrout/ | `------------------------------------------------------------------' From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 12 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!RICE.EDU!mrg From: mrg@RICE.EDU (Mark Gardner) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Response to Patrick's note: Date: 13 Feb 1995 06:26:27 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 39 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9502131426.AA11034@moe.rice.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Response to Patrick's note: >From: "Patrick O'Neil" >Subject: Re: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering >Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:18:11 -0700 >I have spent a lot of time considering the possibilities of life >extension mediated by genetic engineering or, more likely, biological >manipulation. I cannot deny an attraction to a much longer youth filled >with ever more experiences and learning (perhaps a few Ph.D's?) but... >Conversely, I have considered the wideer ramifications of such >manipulations and capabilities and have come to the conclusion that >significant life extension in general would be disastrous. ***** pages and pages taken out ********** >Fisheries are overfished, and arable land is limited. Where does >the food come from? Pat, get a life........you are assuming that all of the people that are now dying in the prime of their life would somehow be worthless if they kept on living. Think of the millions and millions of well educated experience people who fade away just when we could use them the most. These people have gone through the burden of education, paying for their house, raising children. What a cheap resource to find a rocket scientist or something without having the expense of training one. What if Einstein or Feynman were still alive. On the other hand we could use a few less whining liberals. MRG From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 12 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!RICE.EDU!mrg From: mrg@RICE.EDU (Mark Gardner) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: (none) Date: 13 Feb 1995 05:36:27 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 36 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9502131336.AA10096@moe.rice.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Response to Patrick's note: >From: "Patrick O'Neil" >Subject: Re: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering >Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:18:11 -0700 >I have spent a lot of time considering the possibilities of life >extension mediated by genetic engineering or, more likely, biological >manipulation. I cannot deny an attraction to a much longer youth filled >with ever more experiences and learning (perhaps a few Ph.D's?) but... >Conversely, I have considered the wideer ramifications of such >manipulations and capabilities and have come to the conclusion that >significant life extension in general would be disastrous. ***** pages and pages taken out ********** >Fisheries are overfished, and arable land is limited. Where does >the food come from? Pat, get a life........you are assuming that all of the people that are now dying in the prime of their life would somehow be worthless if they kept on living. Think of the millions and millions of well educated experience people who fade away just when we could use them the most. These people have gone through the burden of education, paying for their house, raising children. What a cheap resource to find a rocket scientist or something without having the expense of training one. What if Einstein or Feynman were still alive. On the other hand we could use a few less whining liberals. From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 12 22:00:00 1995 Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Path: biosci!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!rahul.net!a2i!olivea!decwrl!pa.dec.com!corona.med.utah.edu!patrick From: patrick@corona.med.utah.edu ("Patrick O'Neil") Subject: Re: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering (fwd) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 11:42:53 -0700 (MST) X-Received: by usenet.pa.dec.com; id AA14286; Sun, 12 Feb 95 10:56:47 -0800 X-Received: by pobox1.pa.dec.com; id AA01378; Sun, 12 Feb 95 10:56:46 -0800 X-Received: from corona.med.utah.edu by inet-gw-2.pa.dec.com (5.65/10Aug94) id AA00653; Sun, 12 Feb 95 10:53:10 -0800 X-Received: (patrick@localhost) by corona.med.utah.edu (8.6.9/8.6.5) id LAA15433; Sun, 12 Feb 1995 11:42:54 -0700 X-To: bionet.molbio.ageing.usenet@decwrl.dec.com X-Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 55 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 10:32:09 -0700 (MST) From: Patrick O'Neil Newgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing, sci.life-extension, sci.cryonics Subject: Re: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, John de Rivaz wrote: > > I have been asked to gather information on attitudes of optimism and > resistance to life extension by genetic programming. > > In addition to discussion on these newsgroups [bionet.molbio.ageing, > sci.life-extension, sci.cryonics] we need to know if there are any other > newsgroups who would provide intelligent non-emotional arguments about > it, for and against. I have long harbored and interest in genetic manipulation (not necessarily engineering) being used for significant life extension, but... in thinking about it and in discussions with others, and considering the present population problem worldwide, I could not sanction any significant alterations. Right now, on average, there are about 4 generations alive at any given moment, particularly in developed nations. Even though the trend in developed nations is for fewer children per household (~2.5), if suddenly it became possible to extend everyone's life by, say, 30 or 40 years, then you instantly add a 5th generation to load. In addition, if such measures only were available in developed nations, but not in developing nations (where heaviest population growth occurs) then you would add to tensions that already exist between the first and second and third worlds. If, on the other hand, such measures became available to them, with their exploding populations, it would be disastrous. Economically, we are able to support only so many jobs. At the moment, with a growing economy (though made up of low-paying jobs) we still have ~5% unemployment. What happens if suddenly those who would normally be retiring due to age are now able to work very well for another 30 years? What of the young coming into the FINITE job market? What of the environment and the concordant need to divert more water, clear more wilderness, grow more crops to feed the extra billions? Unless EVERYONE were willing to accept STRICT birthcontrol laws, widespread, significant life extension is not tenable and, ultimately, would devestate us and the world we share with all the other creatures. How about holding off until (and IF) we start colonizing space? At such a time, with a huge area to harmlessly expand into, significant life extension would be absorbable. Without more space, then significant life extension would lead to exactly the opposite for us and many other species. Just some thoughts Patrick From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 12 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!PCLSP2.KUICR.KYOTO-U.AC.JP!vinz From: vinz@PCLSP2.KUICR.KYOTO-U.AC.JP (Vincenzo Nardi-Dei) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering Date: 12 Feb 1995 18:30:23 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 23 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9502130232.AA17120@pclsp2> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Patrick wrote: <<<<< I have spent a lot of time considering the possibilities of life extension mediated by genetic engineering or, more likely, biological manipulation. I cannot deny an attraction to a much longer youth filled with ever more experiences and learning (perhaps a few Ph.D's?) but... ...These over-reproducing developing nations, living longer lives due to the life extension tech made available would REALLY explode the population and the stress on natural resources and open spaces, and endangered species. >>>>> I promise that if you find the possibility of life extension mediated by genetic engineering or, more likely, biological manipulation, I am prepared to use condoms for the rest of my long life. :-) Vinz From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 12 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!PCLSP2.KUICR.KYOTO-U.AC.JP!vinz From: vinz@PCLSP2.KUICR.KYOTO-U.AC.JP (Vincenzo Nardi-Dei) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering Date: 12 Feb 1995 18:28:06 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 23 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9502130229.AA17110@pclsp2> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Patrick wrote: <<<<< I have spent a lot of time considering the possibilities of life extension mediated by genetic engineering or, more likely, biological manipulation. I cannot deny an attraction to a much longer youth filled with ever more experiences and learning (perhaps a few Ph.D's?) but... ...These over-reproducing developing nations, living longer lives due to the life extension tech made available would REALLY explode the population and the stress on natural resources and open spaces, and endangered species. >>>>> I promise that if you find the possibility of life extension mediated by genetic engineering or, more likely, biological manipulation, I am prepared to use condoms for the rest of my long life. :-) Vinz From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 12 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!newshost.lanl.gov!ncar!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: bcolias@ix.netcom.com (Bill Colias) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,sci.life-extension,sci.cryonics Subject: Re: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering Date: 13 Feb 1995 19:52:53 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 55 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3hodal$hqb@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <518812340wnr@longevb.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-sr1-05.ix.netcom.com Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1287 sci.life-extension:3672 sci.cryonics:1576 In nv91-asa@mumrik.nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) writes: > >John de Rivaz wrote: >>I have been asked to gather information on attitudes of optimism and >>resistance to life extension by genetic programming. > >(I assume you mean genetic engineering, not genetic programming which is >something completely different). > >I would say I'm optimistic about the technical possibilities, once we >overcome most of our rather irrational resistance against modifying the >human genome. Some possibilities (which I really would like to hear >comments about): > >Increasing expression of superoxide-dismutase and other anti-oxidation >enzymes; this will make the body more resistant to free radicals, >environmental dangers and perhaps slow aging somewhat. > >Increase of DNA correction rate by increasing expression of repair enzymes >These two methods don't appear that hard to use, since we only need to >create more copies or promoters for the genes (evolution haven't done this, >since it would require more energy (which we humans have plenty of) and >long lifespan is normally not selected for). > >If the telomer-theory of cell death is true, then improvements of telomerase >activity would also prolong the lifespan. However, this may require some >careful design, since it would also increase the risk of cancer (this should >preferably be used together with promotion of DNA repair enzymes and anti- >oncogenes). > >Are there other useful methods? I'm working right now on a page about >possible genetic modifications, and would be grateful for additions. >-- >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension! >nv91-asa@hemul.nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html >GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y > > >-- >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension! >nv91-asa@hemul.nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html >GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y > > > One modification could be to correct the species wide genetic defect of not being able to synthesize Vitamin C in our liver. -Bill From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 12 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!TENET.EDU!dashley From: dashley@TENET.EDU (Don Ashley) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Care To Live An Extra 100 Years? Date: 13 Feb 1995 15:52:12 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 56 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <9502131336.AA10096@moe.rice.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Mark, Thank you for picking up the ball and replying positively to the possibility of an extra 100+ years for people. It's amazing how many people subscribe to this newsgroup who have such tunnel vision. Surely there are more people who can see the profound benefits possible. Even with only remote possibilities it seems like one could place more value on each moment of experience. More later. Don dashley@tenet.edu On 13 Feb 1995, Mark Gardner wrote: > Response to Patrick's note: > > > >From: "Patrick O'Neil" > >Subject: Re: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering > >Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:18:11 -0700 > > > >I have spent a lot of time considering the possibilities of life > >extension mediated by genetic engineering or, more likely, biological > >manipulation. I cannot deny an attraction to a much longer youth filled > >with ever more experiences and learning (perhaps a few Ph.D's?) but... > > >Conversely, I have considered the wideer ramifications of such > >manipulations and capabilities and have come to the conclusion that > >significant life extension in general would be disastrous. > > ***** pages and pages taken out ********** > > > >Fisheries are overfished, and arable land is limited. Where does > >the food come from? > > > > Pat, get a life........you are assuming that all of the people that are now > dying in the prime of their life would somehow be worthless if they kept on > living. Think of the millions and millions of well educated experience > people who fade away just when we could use them the most. These people have > gone through the burden of education, paying for their house, raising > children. What a cheap resource to find a rocket scientist or something > without having the expense of training one. What if Einstein or Feynman were > still alive. > > On the other hand we could use a few less whining liberals. > > > From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Sun Feb 12 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!TENET.EDU!dashley From: dashley@TENET.EDU (Don Ashley) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Care To Live An Extra Hundred Years? Date: 13 Feb 1995 15:58:32 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 49 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Joseph, Thank you for taking the time to think about breakthroughs in life extension. We will probably be initiating essay contests to encourage positive solutions to the challenges of an extra 100+ years for the masses. Contacting sponsors is one of the next steps. Don On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, Joseph J. Strout wrote: > On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, Patrick O'Neil wrote: > > > Conversely, I have considered the wideer ramifications of such > > manipulations and capabilities and have come to the conclusion that > > significant life extension in general would be disastrous. The worl > > population is already booming and there is concern about the environment > > and available resources for the ever-growing minions. > > ... > > Unless there is another planet sitting around for us to expand onto, or > > unless everyone will accept strict population control methods, then it > > cannot work. The problems are the same, to varying lessor extents if you > > are only considering minor life extensions. > > I think your analysis is essentially correct. Humanity's gestation is > nearly over; the difficulty is making sure that Mother Earth does not die > due to complications of childbirth. > > The only long-term solution, of course, is to expand from Earth. As you > pointed out, long lives would be benificial given ample room and > resources. Fortunately, there are resources aplenty in our home solar > system. The gas giants, especially, are rich in energy and raw > materials. Of course, the original question was about life extension > through biological means, and it is doubtful that such methods will > enable people to live on other worlds except in enclosed structures, and > this will limit the rate of expansion. > > Of course, it would take an extremely aggressive emmigration program to > counter the growth rate; births will have to be legally restricted, most > likely, as they are in China already. The combination of emmigration and > birth restriction may succeed in saving Earth -- despite an extended > lifespan. > > ,------------------------------------------------------------------. > | Joseph J. Strout Department of Neuroscience, UCSD | > | jstrout@ucsd.edu http://sdcc3.ucsd.edu/~jstrout/ | > `------------------------------------------------------------------' > > From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Mon Feb 13 22:00:00 1995 Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing,sci.life-extension,sci.cryonics Path: biosci!rutgers!uwm.edu!msunews!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.uwa.edu.au!nodecg.ncc.telecomwa.oz.au!netbsd08.dn.itg.telecom.com.au!orca1.vic.design.telecom.com.au!news.tansu.com.au!wabbit.cc.uow.edu.au!news.ci.com.au!metro!extro!okx From: okx@extro (Philip Rhoades) Subject: Re: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering Message-ID: Followup-To: bionet.molbio.ageing,sci.life-extension,sci.cryonics Sender: news@ucc.su.OZ.AU Nntp-Posting-Host: extro.ucc.su.oz.au Reply-To: okx@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU Organization: Information Services, Sydney University, Sydney, NSW, Australia X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <518812340wnr@longevb.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 14:47:40 GMT Lines: 62 Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.ageing:1302 sci.life-extension:3693 sci.cryonics:1579 Joseph J. Strout (strout@helmholtz) wrote: : On Sun, 12 Feb 1995, Patrick O'Neil wrote: : > Conversely, I have considered the wideer ramifications of such : > manipulations and capabilities and have come to the conclusion that : > significant life extension in general would be disastrous. The worl : > population is already booming and there is concern about the environment : > and available resources for the ever-growing minions. : > ... : > Unless there is another planet sitting around for us to expand onto, or : > unless everyone will accept strict population control methods, then it : > cannot work. The problems are the same, to varying lessor extents if you : > are only considering minor life extensions. : I think your analysis is essentially correct. Humanity's gestation is : nearly over; the difficulty is making sure that Mother Earth does not die : due to complications of childbirth. : The only long-term solution, of course, is to expand from Earth. As you : pointed out, long lives would be benificial given ample room and : resources. Fortunately, there are resources aplenty in our home solar : system. The gas giants, especially, are rich in energy and raw : materials. This is a nice idea but apparently just science fiction (unless some new technology is developed to get large numbers of people off the planet cheaply - in terms of energy). : Of course, the original question was about life extension : through biological means, and it is doubtful that such methods will : enable people to live on other worlds except in enclosed structures, and : this will limit the rate of expansion. : Of course, it would take an extremely aggressive emmigration program to : counter the growth rate; births will have to be legally restricted, most : likely, as they are in China already. The combination of emmigration and : birth restriction may succeed in saving Earth -- despite an extended : lifespan. Like I said above - it just ain't possible - parts of a solution are: drastic population reduction (over a couple of centuries), drastic cuts in the consumption of scarce resources, fanatical conservation of species diversity and huge increases in recycling. Ideally, I think a world population of ~1 billion is a good idea - with disease, poverty and war elliminated - at least that's what we should be aiming for - BEFORE we worry about going to other planets and stars. Shifting a few people off earth cannot solve the problems. (BTW I am a SF fan and I would be on the next shuttle if given half a chance - it's just that hi-tech space solutions to the world's problems are a fantasy). [Lecture mode off] Phil. -- Philip Rhoades Pricom Pty Limited E-mail: okx@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU Phone : +61 2 963-2246 Fax : +61 2 569-5329 S-mail: GPO Box 3411 Sydney NSW 2001 Australia From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Mon Feb 13 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!TENET.EDU!dashley From: dashley@TENET.EDU (Don Ashley) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: How to lie about your age and get away with it Date: 14 Feb 1995 04:28:23 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 38 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Steve, If a 28 year old, attractive lady were to present herself on television as having contracted progeria (accelerated aging) would people be more emotionally moved than if a 78 year old man said he has same prognosis? If/when lifespans increase to 350+years, there will probably be less disparity of emotional reaction to same. All lives (lifespans) will become more prescious to all of us. Let's pump up the research on telomerase, the 'immortality' enzyme. Don On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, Steve Chambers wrote: > These questions were posed to me the other day: > > A well-preserved 70 year old man presents himself at hospital, claims > he's 60, and has a fake driver's license to prove it. > > (1) Would any clinician think twice about treating him as if he > was 60? (I thought not.) > > (2) Is there any biological or physiological measurement that could > pinpoint his actual age? (I couldn't think of any easy one.) > > A virtual penny for your thoughts? > > -- > ________________________ > (I_lurk,_therefore_I_am!_\ ,,, Steve Chambers > (o o) steve@chambers.ak.planet.co.nz > ----------------------oOO--(_)--OOo----------------------------- > > > > From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Mon Feb 13 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!TENET.EDU!dashley From: dashley@TENET.EDU (Don Ashley) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: Re: Attitudes to life extension via genetic engineering Date: 14 Feb 1995 04:19:29 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 51 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <349499291wnr@longevb.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net John, Have you been reading our publications on the ramifications and benefits of curing the 'old age disease'? Your solutions to typical resistance parallel what we have discussed in our groups. It is highly refreshing to meet an independent thinker who does not think like sheep. On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, John de Rivaz wrote: > In article: Patrick > O'Neil writes: > > Conversely, I have considered the wideer ramifications of such > > manipulations and capabilities and have come to the conclusion that > > significant life extension in general would be disastrous. The worl > > > There are a few points I would like to raise here. > > 1. That made by George Bernard Shaw - people living longer lives would be > personally concerned about the future and have less need to reproduce. > > 2. As population growth is exponential, if everyone who ever died was > resurrected, it would only double the world's population. And we are taling > about life extension, not resurrection. > > 3. by refusing life extension research on the grounds of population, we are > doing the same thing as saying to old people that we will not give you > access to medical treatment because we want to make room for someone else, > and that expands into "we will kill you to make room for someone else". > > 4. Some children were once asked if they met god, what would they ask. One > said: "Why do you go on making more people when you don't look after those > you have got?" > > 5. It is uneconomic to pay to educate new people if we can go on getting > contributions from those we have already educated. > > Further comments welcomed, please. > > > -- > Sincerely, **************************************** > * Publisher of Longevity Report * > John de Rivaz * Fractal Report * > * details on request * > **************************************** > **** What is the point of life if it ends in death? **** > > > From owner-ageing@net.bio.net Mon Feb 13 22:00:00 1995 Path: biosci!VMS.HUJI.AC.IL!LITVAK From: LITVAK@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.ageing Subject: What is the goal of ageing research? Date: 14 Feb 1995 05:04:57 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 69 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <199502141304.FAA05748@net.bio.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net I've been reading this newsgroup for several months and this is my first posting. I'd like to relate to the latest discussion about life extension via genetic engineering and ask more general question. I think, Patrick's arguments against life extension are very persuasive. Right now even minor changes in human lifespan would cause a demographic disaster. But if so, what is the ultimate goal of aging research? May be I missed something but I don't remember any serious discussion about this subject. In my opinion there can be several possibilities: 1) The aging research is being carried out because of pure scientific curio- sity. I think no one really believes that this is so. Any real progress in this research will be immediately implemented. Even if there are some people claiming that they are satisfied with their current lifespan there will always be plenty of those who want to live longer. We are talking about lot of money here and this argument can beat both moral and demographic calculations in our society. 2)The purpose of aging research is to find a way for people to remain healthy and active till their death without increasing their lifespan. The two obvious questions are:"Who will want to die if this is achieved?" and "Why would people die at all?" It's unlikely ,I think, that the scientists will only know how to make an 80 years old man look young and healthy and won't know how to make him live longer. In any case such situation will only make people unhappy because many of them are now ready to accept death because of aging and it's consequences.When this reason is taken from them they may feel better physically but not psychologically. 3)We really want to increase human lifespan ,perhaps even become immortal. This is the possibility that has been discussed here at the last few days and I don't think there is much to add. Even those who are optimistic about conquering other planets etc. would agree that if some radical breakthrough in aging research happens before we find a solution to the population problem, it won't bring any blessing to humanit