From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 01:20:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 2633F17A4E; Mon, 1 May 2000 01:20:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA18606 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 01:20:18 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id BAA08631 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 01:20:17 +0100 (BST) From: John Wilkins X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: debate challenge^ Date: 30 Apr 2000 20:19:31 -0400 Organization: Not in this case Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <390B1CFF.FF35DB3E@mail.com> <01HW.B531BB2F00103CA806DB2A0C@enews.newsguy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: backdraft.briar.org: smap set sender to using -f X-Complaints-To: news@news.unimelb.edu.au Mail-Copies-To: poster User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In article <01HW.B531BB2F00103CA806DB2A0C@enews.newsguy.com>, patjames@newsguy.com wrote: |On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:33:18 -0500, Bill Bonde wrote |(in message <390B1CFF.FF35DB3E@mail.com>): | |> |> |> Justin Cobb wrote: |>> |>> You know what? I'm drunk again so I'm going to try to talk some shit. |>> Man, |>> what the hell is Dan trying to prove? | |Good question. | |>> He has no scientific proof for |>> anything he says. Also, that Tim guy seems to need to take a biology |>> class, | |or two. | |>> as well. These people don't know what they are talking about. You |>> know, |>> from my experience in church, God doesn't want us to go out and get |>> drunk. | |Hmm... I seem to recall a lot of stuff about alcohol in the Bible. | |>> What does good ol' Dan have to say on the subject? Probably nothing. |>> Haha. |>> |>> Justin Cobb |>> |>> P.S.: Hey, you creationists, send me some email. It's fun ripping your |>> arguments apart. |>> |> The world is 6004 years old and Noah was a nice man? |> | |That's _6006_ years old and Grand Admiral of the Great Barge Fleet Noah to |you, buster. And you'd better salute the flag or I know where we're gonna |get |a volunteer to clean out the T. rex stall. No need. Just tip him and all the other large dinos off the side; they'll be buried in the sediment, and nobody need ever know... -- John Wilkins Homo homini aut deus aut lupus - Erasmus of Rotterdam From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 02:05:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 5B32817A4E; Mon, 1 May 2000 02:05:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA20631 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 02:05:14 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id CAA09097 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 02:05:13 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Bonz X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 30 Apr 2000 21:01:45 -0400 Organization: Department of Omphalos Gazing Lines: 29 Message-ID: <70mpgsoa0vk4ql6a37i6qelu5dhs4veqeu@4ax.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <390480C8.CC93D7E4@pioneer-net.com> <0fd549f4.3703567a@usw-ex0108-061.remarq.com> <3908D998.96A32802@pioneer-net.com> <01HW.B531BB520010450706DB2A0C@enews.newsguy.com> Reply-To: bonz@mad.scientist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blue.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On 30 Apr 2000 11:28:53 -0400, Pat James wrote in message <01HW.B531BB520010450706DB2A0C@enews.newsguy.com> : >On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:19:49 -0500, Dan Smith wrote >(in message <3908D998.96A32802@pioneer-net.com>): > >>> It would be foolish indeed to insist that the earth has to >>> be 6000 years old when the data show that the earth is >>> billions of years old. It's God's wonderful evidence that >>> seems to contradict with your faith interpretation. >>> >>> Think about it. >> >> Which "God"? > >Brahma Bull. ¤¤ Bonz alt.atheism #1497 ¤¤ From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 05:35:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id EC25A17AAD; Mon, 1 May 2000 05:35:07 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA08056 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 05:35:05 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id FAA11578 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 05:35:04 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: "Justin Cobb" X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: debate challenge^ Date: 1 May 2000 00:32:05 -0400 Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Lines: 64 Message-ID: References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <390B1CFF.FF35DB3E@mail.com> <01HW.B531BB2F00103CA806DB2A0C@enews.newsguy.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Proxy-Client: jacobb@uiuc.edu from arbor.armoryhouse.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@uiuc.edu To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I guess Dan and the boys quit on us. Justin Cobb "John Wilkins" wrote in message news:wilkins-8D7C79.10190701052000@news.unimelb.edu.au... > In article <01HW.B531BB2F00103CA806DB2A0C@enews.newsguy.com>, > patjames@newsguy.com wrote: > > |On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:33:18 -0500, Bill Bonde wrote > |(in message <390B1CFF.FF35DB3E@mail.com>): > | > |> > |> > |> Justin Cobb wrote: > |>> > |>> You know what? I'm drunk again so I'm going to try to talk some shit. > |>> Man, > |>> what the hell is Dan trying to prove? > | > |Good question. > | > |>> He has no scientific proof for > |>> anything he says. Also, that Tim guy seems to need to take a biology > |>> class, > | > |or two. > | > |>> as well. These people don't know what they are talking about. You > |>> know, > |>> from my experience in church, God doesn't want us to go out and get > |>> drunk. > | > |Hmm... I seem to recall a lot of stuff about alcohol in the Bible. > | > |>> What does good ol' Dan have to say on the subject? Probably nothing. > |>> Haha. > |>> > |>> Justin Cobb > |>> > |>> P.S.: Hey, you creationists, send me some email. It's fun ripping your > |>> arguments apart. > |>> > |> The world is 6004 years old and Noah was a nice man? > |> > | > |That's _6006_ years old and Grand Admiral of the Great Barge Fleet Noah to > |you, buster. And you'd better salute the flag or I know where we're gonna > |get > |a volunteer to clean out the T. rex stall. > > > No need. Just tip him and all the other large dinos off the side; they'll > be buried in the sediment, and nobody need ever know... > -- > John Wilkins > > Homo homini aut deus aut lupus - Erasmus of Rotterdam > From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 08:00:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id D998617A89; Mon, 1 May 2000 08:00:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15881 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 08:00:09 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id IAA13377 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 08:00:07 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: theinventor@my-deja.com X-Newsgroups: bionet.info-theory Subject: dna sequencing, is there natural error corrections Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 06:53:52 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <8ej9lt$a27$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon May 01 06:53:52 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x26.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.252.62.33 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtheinventor To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Can anyone point me in the right direction, in finding out if DNA has a natural error correcting method when copying itself? I am wondering because if mutation in DNA can cause cancer, why do not we have more noticeable defects in DNA over time, or is that what evolution is. I mean we have about 100,000 genes doesn't it get screwed up enough over time or is it really resilient to time. DNA, god's serial number. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 10:47:50 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 8DFA417A5C; Mon, 1 May 2000 10:47:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23771 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 10:47:47 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id KAA15254 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 10:47:45 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: hmv@mail.telepac.pt ("Helder M. Vieira") X-Newsgroups: bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: dna sequencing, is there natural error corrections Date: 1 May 2000 10:47:44 +0100 Organization: BIOSCI/MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre Lines: 18 Message-ID: <001601bfb352$6dc23ec0$0ab437d4@telepac.pt> References: <8ej9lt$a27$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk 957174465 15251 193.62.192.80 (1 May 2000 09:47:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@net.bio.net X-Received: from fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt (fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.200]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23764 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 10:47:42 +0100 (BST) X-Received: from host.telepac.pt ([212.55.180.10]) by fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20000501095034.DWGK2066.fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt@host.telepac.pt> for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 10:50:34 +0100 X-To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk > Can anyone point me in the right direction, in finding out if DNA has a > natural error correcting method when copying itself? I am wondering > because if mutation in DNA ... Yes. Many types of organisms present some damage recovery capabilities. One of the most impressive is the bacterium deinococcus radiodurans. For additional info ... http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc98/12_12_98/Bob1.htm http://www.tigr.org/tdb/CMR/gdr/htmls/SplashPage.html http://www.gbf.de/dsmz/strains/no020539.htm Helder M. Vieira --- From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 17:57:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 63FB717B15; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:15:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20401 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:15:11 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA19978 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:15:10 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: dhenry@plains.NoDak.edu (David R. Henry) X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 12:14:48 -0400 Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8ekahn$av4@plains.nodak.edu> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com> <390b7654$0$218@nntp1.ba.best.com> <390DA964.6756A05A@pioneer-net.com> To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Dan Smith writes: >> >I'd be interested in your observed evidence of this phenomena. >> >> If you really are interested, then go look for yourself. > >Ha! Dan, why are you a moron? -- dhenry@plains.nodak.edu ***Lord High Executioner of the Kingdom of Paul*** "Except for never feeling joy again, this movie had no effect on me!"--Crow What was the question? --Kate Bush /// All you of Earth are IDIOTS! --P9fOS From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 17:57:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id C968C17B18; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:20:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20977 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:20:11 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA19991 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:20:09 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Dan Smith X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 12:16:01 -0400 Organization: Verio Lines: 39 Message-ID: <390DAD23.D707F30D@pioneer-net.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <8efm1d$jj6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8efr8p$mdt$1@saltmine.radix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Herb Huston wrote: > > In article <8efm1d$jj6$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > imjstaguy wrote: > }Previously in this thread, someone asked 'How creationism works'. > }Isn't that kind of implied in the name 'creationism'? God created the > }universe, thus the word creationism. The mechanism of creationism is > }God. > > So how does such a mechanism work, By divine power. > where can it be observed in action, The mind of God is revealed in nature, in scripture, and in the hearts and minds of believers. > and > what predictions can be derived from a knowledge of its workings? There are many - mostly spiritual truths - but also many natural events that have been predicted to occur. I've tested many of the truths of the Bible and found them to be verifiable. -- God bless, Dan *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* "For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly shown, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." - St. Paul - Letter to the believers in Rome, circa 56 A.D. *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 17:57:25 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 6C21217B1B; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:35:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22338 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:35:14 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA20222 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:35:13 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Ken Cox X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 12:31:38 -0400 Organization: Lucent Technologies Lines: 15 Message-ID: <390DB16B.83D491FB@research.bell-labs.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <3901B9CB.2FD69CFF@pioneer-net.com> <39070C9D.778F93ED@research.bell-labs.com> <3908D7F9.C3948070@pioneer-net.com> <8ehj54$gf5$1@saltmine.radix.net> <8ehjd1$lf1$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Original-From: Ken Cox X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72C-SGI [en] (X11; U; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk "Chris C." wrote: > Herb Huston wrote: > > How do leporids redigest their food? > > What the hell is a leoporid? Well, from the roots, it might be something along the lines of "a thing like a lion-carrier". By the way, a "leporid" is a member of a family within the mammalian order that includes rabbits and hares. -- Ken Cox kcc@research.bell-labs.com From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 17:57:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id BC9BF17B1D; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:40:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22807 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:40:12 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA20234 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:40:11 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Larry Handlin X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 12:39:13 -0400 Organization: SBC Internet Services Lines: 31 Message-ID: <9ocrgs4tjt415l8rp4d2b0659e2m9sun4p@4ax.com> References: <3900e128.302508902@news.ptd.net><39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: abuse@swbell.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On 1 May 2000 11:50:50 -0400, Dan Smith wrote: > > >"Chris C." wrote: >> >> >How could the number of dark moths be the result of mutation WHEN THE >> >DARK OR LIGHT COLORING WAS ALREADY CODED FOR??????? >> > >> >You guys believe this stuff? >> >> Are you suggesting that mutations don't happen? It was coded for when it was >> needed but originally it was just a chance mutation. > >And you have proof of this? This is asinine. Dan, we observe mutations that simple all of the time. Now, what we don't have evidence of is that such changes are "coded" for by God. You have claimed this. Please provide evidence and stop changing the subject. Your posts today are all trying to divert attention from the questions you have been asked to clarify what you mean or asking you for evidence of your claims. Stop trying to avoid providing a case for your assertions. reply to:lbhandli@my-not.com not-deja--spam protection--figure it out "They laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Newton. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." -- Carl Sagan From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 17:57:32 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 5DDE117ABE; Mon, 1 May 2000 16:50:24 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17749 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 16:50:22 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id QAA19574 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 16:50:20 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Dan Smith X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 11:49:59 -0400 Organization: Verio Lines: 39 Message-ID: <390DA807.CCB06F3E@pioneer-net.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <38FF2B33.4C821CB9@pioneer-net.com> <390056B5.84EBDAD6@pioneer-net.com> <39009c3e.284859750@news.ptd.net> <3900CAA1.A0087830@pioneer-net.com> <3900e128.302508902@news.ptd.net> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <3905B6D4.36C09C5D@pioneer-net.com> <3908DD3D.F0B412A4@pioneer-net.com> <39091216@news.desupernet.net> <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com> <390bb5c5@news.desupernet.net> <390C5180.96CE2425@pioneer-net.com> <390c5d53.46949861@news.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk wf3h@ptd.net wrote: > > On 30 Apr 2000 11:28:47 -0400, Dan Smith wrote: > > > > > > > > >How could the number of dark moths be the result of mutation WHEN THE > >DARK OR LIGHT COLORING WAS ALREADY CODED FOR??????? > > > >You guys believe this stuff? > > > >-- > > dan tells us alot about how he thinks scientists are wrong. > > he tells us nothing about how 'scientific creationism' thinks this > happened.... How what happened? How moths that were either light or dark to begin with, continued to evolve into moths that were either light or dark? What's to explain? -- God bless, Dan *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* "For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly shown, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." - St. Paul - Letter to the believers in Rome, circa 56 A.D. *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 17:57:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id C706417AD9; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:10:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19926 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:10:09 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA19863 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:10:08 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Ken Cox X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 12:05:17 -0400 Organization: Lucent Technologies Lines: 13 Message-ID: <390DAB3F.5D8B85C6@research.bell-labs.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <39070348.90F55D44@research.bell-labs.com> <3908D229.BCB8085D@pioneer-net.com> <3909AF1A.9C62D768@research.bell-labs.com> <8eekvu$a9q$1@saltmine.radix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Original-From: Ken Cox X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72C-SGI [en] (X11; U; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Herb Huston wrote: > Ken Cox wrote: > }to the original mutant, who lived around 1400 IIRC. > If I'm remembering the _60 Minutes_ telecast correctly, the mutant died > about 1790. They showed his gravestone. Probably right. All I could recall was that it was around the Renaissance. -- Ken Cox kcc@research.bell-labs.com From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 17:57:37 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id E3A3E17AEA; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:35:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22337 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:35:14 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA20218 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:35:12 +0100 (BST) From: "Justin Cobb" X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 12:32:27 -0400 Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Lines: 61 Message-ID: References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <8efm1d$jj6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8efr8p$mdt$1@saltmine.radix.net> <390DAD23.D707F30D@pioneer-net.com> X-Authentication-Warning: backdraft.briar.org: smap set sender to using -f X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Proxy-Client: jacobb@uiuc.edu from arbor.armoryhouse.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@uiuc.edu To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk "Dan Smith" wrote in message news:390DAD23.D707F30D@pioneer-net.com... > > > Herb Huston wrote: > > > > In article <8efm1d$jj6$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > imjstaguy wrote: > > }Previously in this thread, someone asked 'How creationism works'. > > }Isn't that kind of implied in the name 'creationism'? God created the > > }universe, thus the word creationism. The mechanism of creationism is > > }God. > > > > So how does such a mechanism work, > > By divine power. Science doesn't work by divine power. It works by testing hypotheses based on observation and...I've explained this how many times?! You have no argument. Remember, this is a SCIENTIFIC forum. > > > where can it be observed in action, > > The mind of God is revealed in nature, in scripture, and in the hearts > and minds of believers. ....And this belief is based entirely on faith. Dan, you may have "witnessed" things that you believe God has done, but until you have some empirical evidence, you have no proof at all that it was God that did these things. You still have no argument. > > > and > > what predictions can be derived from a knowledge of its workings? > > There are many - mostly spiritual truths - but also many natural events > that have been predicted to occur. > I've tested many of the truths of the Bible and found them to be > verifiable. Spiritually truths are not scientific. Again, I have explained this to you several times. Also, bear in mind that the Bible is very open to interpretation. You have your interpretation. I have my interpretation. Different denominations of Christianity have different interpretations. Need I say more? > > -- > God bless, > Dan > > *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* > "For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities > - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly shown, being > understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." > - St. Paul - Letter to the believers in Rome, circa 56 A.D. > *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* > From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 17:57:38 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 68A8517AB0; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:40:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22801 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:40:11 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA20230 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:40:10 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Larry Handlin X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 12:39:32 -0400 Organization: SBC Internet Services Lines: 100 Message-ID: References: <3900CAA1.A0087830@pioneer-net.com><3900e128.302508902@news.ptd.net> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: abuse@swbell.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On 1 May 2000 11:55:10 -0400, Dan Smith wrote: > > >Bob Casanova wrote: >> >> On 30 Apr 2000 11:28:47 -0400, the following appeared in >> talk.origins, posted by Dan Smith : >> >> > >> > >> >tweedyd wrote: >> > >> > >> >> Dan, the information has been provided to you, but obviously, you haven't >> >> looked at it. Try these links >> >> >> >> http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.html >> > >> >This from there: >> >--------- >> >English peppered moths come in two varieties, light and dark. Before the >> >industrial revolution dark moths were very rare. During >> > the worst years of the industrial revolution when the air was very >> >sooty dark moths became quite common. In recent years, since >> > the major efforts to improve air quality, the light moths are >> >replacing the dark moths. >> > >> > This is a classic example of natural selection; the variations in a >> >species which are better suited to the environment survive and >> > reproduce more effectively than those which do not. >> > >> > It can be very tricky to determine why some variations better fit >> >their environments than others. The peppered moth is a good >> > example. In a famous paper Kettlewell proposed the following >> >explanation: >> > >> > Birds eat the kind of moth they can see the best. >> > >> > In England before the Industrial Revolution trees are often >> >covered with light colored lichens. As a result light moths >> > were favored because they were hard to see on the bark of trees >> >whereas the dark moths were easy to see; birds ate >> > the dark moths. During the worst years of the Industrial >> >Revolution the air was very sooty so tree bark was dark >> > because of soot. Dark moths were hard to see whereas the light >> >moths were easy to see; birds ate the light moths. >> > As a result the dark moths became common and the light moths >> >became rare. >> > >> > Kettlewell's explanation (which makes for an appealing story) has not >> >stood the test of time. Peppered moths seldom rest on >> > exposed areas of the trunks of trees. Moreover the distribution of >> >dark moths might not be well correlated with tree color except in >> > the areas which Kettlewell studied. Some more recent studies indicate >> >that peppered moth melanism is very well correlated with >> > the amount of SO2 (sulfur dioxide) in the air. [5] >> > >> > None-the-less, before the Industrial Revolution a mutation which >> >changed light moths into dark moths was an unfavorable (harmful) >> > mutation whereas during the dark years it was a favorable (helpful) >> >mutation. >> >------------- >> > >> >This argument is a classic case of "bait and switch". Notice in the >> >beginning that both types of moths existed - one drastically outnumbered >> >the other, but they both existed. >> > >> >Notice at the end, that he speaks of a mutation which changed the color >> >of the moths! >> >> The dark form is a recognized mutation which crops up as a >> certain low percentage of every generation of the moths, >> which are normally light-colored. The conditions of the >> Industrial Revolution favored the dark mutation, which >> became prevalent, even though it started as a distinct >> minority. Now that those conditions are abating, the normal >> (light) variety is again favored by the environment. >> >> > >> >How could the number of dark moths be the result of mutation WHEN THE >> >DARK OR LIGHT COLORING WAS ALREADY CODED FOR??????? >> >> The dark form was identified *as a mutation* a while back. >> It isn't "already coded for"; it's a true (albeit >> more-than-usually-common) mutation. > >Let me get this straight, a small percentage of the moths have always >been dark, yet it's classified as a mutation? Is red hair in humans >classified as a mutation also? (Please say "Yes"! Please say "Yes"!) Did you read the rest of the FAQ Dan, or is it just tool long for you attention span? reply to:lbhandli@my-not.com not-deja--spam protection--figure it out "They laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Newton. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." -- Carl Sagan From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 18:07:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 7621C17B12; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:00:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18971 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:00:10 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA19701 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:00:09 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Dan Smith X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 11:55:10 -0400 Organization: Verio Lines: 100 Message-ID: <390DA929.8C63B447@pioneer-net.com> References: <390056B5.84EBDAD6@pioneer-net.com> <39009c3e.284859750@news.ptd.net> <3900CAA1.A0087830@pioneer-net.com> <3900e128.302508902@news.ptd.net> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <3905B6D4.36C09C5D@pioneer-net.com> <3908DD3D.F0B412A4@pioneer-net.com> <39091216@news.desupernet.net> <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com> <390bb5c5@news.desupernet.net> <390C5180.96CE2425@pioneer-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Bob Casanova wrote: > > On 30 Apr 2000 11:28:47 -0400, the following appeared in > talk.origins, posted by Dan Smith : > > > > > > >tweedyd wrote: > > > > > >> Dan, the information has been provided to you, but obviously, you haven't > >> looked at it. Try these links > >> > >> http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.html > > > >This from there: > >--------- > >English peppered moths come in two varieties, light and dark. Before the > >industrial revolution dark moths were very rare. During > > the worst years of the industrial revolution when the air was very > >sooty dark moths became quite common. In recent years, since > > the major efforts to improve air quality, the light moths are > >replacing the dark moths. > > > > This is a classic example of natural selection; the variations in a > >species which are better suited to the environment survive and > > reproduce more effectively than those which do not. > > > > It can be very tricky to determine why some variations better fit > >their environments than others. The peppered moth is a good > > example. In a famous paper Kettlewell proposed the following > >explanation: > > > > Birds eat the kind of moth they can see the best. > > > > In England before the Industrial Revolution trees are often > >covered with light colored lichens. As a result light moths > > were favored because they were hard to see on the bark of trees > >whereas the dark moths were easy to see; birds ate > > the dark moths. During the worst years of the Industrial > >Revolution the air was very sooty so tree bark was dark > > because of soot. Dark moths were hard to see whereas the light > >moths were easy to see; birds ate the light moths. > > As a result the dark moths became common and the light moths > >became rare. > > > > Kettlewell's explanation (which makes for an appealing story) has not > >stood the test of time. Peppered moths seldom rest on > > exposed areas of the trunks of trees. Moreover the distribution of > >dark moths might not be well correlated with tree color except in > > the areas which Kettlewell studied. Some more recent studies indicate > >that peppered moth melanism is very well correlated with > > the amount of SO2 (sulfur dioxide) in the air. [5] > > > > None-the-less, before the Industrial Revolution a mutation which > >changed light moths into dark moths was an unfavorable (harmful) > > mutation whereas during the dark years it was a favorable (helpful) > >mutation. > >------------- > > > >This argument is a classic case of "bait and switch". Notice in the > >beginning that both types of moths existed - one drastically outnumbered > >the other, but they both existed. > > > >Notice at the end, that he speaks of a mutation which changed the color > >of the moths! > > The dark form is a recognized mutation which crops up as a > certain low percentage of every generation of the moths, > which are normally light-colored. The conditions of the > Industrial Revolution favored the dark mutation, which > became prevalent, even though it started as a distinct > minority. Now that those conditions are abating, the normal > (light) variety is again favored by the environment. > > > > >How could the number of dark moths be the result of mutation WHEN THE > >DARK OR LIGHT COLORING WAS ALREADY CODED FOR??????? > > The dark form was identified *as a mutation* a while back. > It isn't "already coded for"; it's a true (albeit > more-than-usually-common) mutation. Let me get this straight, a small percentage of the moths have always been dark, yet it's classified as a mutation? Is red hair in humans classified as a mutation also? (Please say "Yes"! Please say "Yes"!) -- God bless, Dan *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* "For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly shown, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." - St. Paul - Letter to the believers in Rome, circa 56 A.D. *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 18:07:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id C0F4717B10; Mon, 1 May 2000 16:55:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18286 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 16:55:10 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id QAA19695 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 16:55:09 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Dan Smith X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 11:50:50 -0400 Organization: Verio Lines: 25 Message-ID: <390DA83D.689C2053@pioneer-net.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <38FF2B33.4C821CB9@pioneer-net.com> <390056B5.84EBDAD6@pioneer-net.com> <39009c3e.284859750@news.ptd.net> <3900CAA1.A0087830@pioneer-net.com> <3900e128.302508902@news.ptd.net> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <3905B6D4.36C09C5D@pioneer-net.com> <3908DD3D.F0B412A4@pioneer-net.com> <39091216@news.desupernet.net> <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com> <390bb5c5@news.desupernet.net> <390C5180.96CE2425@pioneer-net.com> <390c5d53.46949861@news.ptd.net> <8ehq16$nu6$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk "Chris C." wrote: > > >How could the number of dark moths be the result of mutation WHEN THE > >DARK OR LIGHT COLORING WAS ALREADY CODED FOR??????? > > > >You guys believe this stuff? > > Are you suggesting that mutations don't happen? It was coded for when it was > needed but originally it was just a chance mutation. And you have proof of this? -- God bless, Dan *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* "For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly shown, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." - St. Paul - Letter to the believers in Rome, circa 56 A.D. *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 18:07:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 2F64B17B13; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:00:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18978 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:00:11 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA19705 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:00:10 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Dan Smith X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 11:56:12 -0400 Organization: Verio Lines: 27 Message-ID: <390DA964.6756A05A@pioneer-net.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <3908DD3D.F0B412A4@pioneer-net.com> <39091216@news <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com> <390b7654$0$218@nntp1.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Mark Isaak wrote: > > In article <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com>, > Dan Smith wrote: > >tweedyd wrote: > >> None of this will do you any good until you take off your blinders, and > >> look at the evidence. > > > >I'd be interested in your observed evidence of this phenomena. > > If you really are interested, then go look for yourself. Ha! -- God bless, Dan *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* "For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly shown, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." - St. Paul - Letter to the believers in Rome, circa 56 A.D. *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 20:20:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 74F5F17AAA; Mon, 1 May 2000 20:20:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08939 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 20:20:16 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id UAA22206 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 20:20:14 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: hrgruemm@my-deja.com X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 15:19:37 -0400 Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8eklbc$pov$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <3901B9CB.2FD69CFF@pioneer-net.com> <39070C9D.778F93ED@research.bell-labs.com> <3908D7F9.C3948070@pioneer-net.com> <8ehj54$gf5$1@saltmine.radix.net> <8ehjd1$lf1$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <390DB16B.83D491FB@research.bell-labs.com> X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon May 01 19:19:28 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; QXW03302; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x42.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.2.5.113 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDhrgruemm To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In article <390DB16B.83D491FB@research.bell-labs.com>, Ken Cox wrote: > "Chris C." wrote: > > Herb Huston wrote: > > > How do leporids redigest their food? > > > > What the hell is a leoporid? > > Well, from the roots, it might be something along the lines of > "a thing like a lion-carrier". That would be a leophorid. Perhaps a leoporid is something like a skin pore of a lion ? HRG, Nitpicker Extraordinaire.... > By the way, a "leporid" is a member of a family within the mammalian > order that includes rabbits and hares. > > -- > Ken Cox kcc@research.bell-labs.com > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 21:00:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id EBF2717A43; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:00:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14197 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:00:14 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id VAA22668 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:00:11 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Timothy Wallace X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: debate challenge Date: 1 May 2000 15:57:48 -0400 Organization: TrueOrigin Archive Lines: 47 Message-ID: <390DE19F.A33BF142@trueorigin.org> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <38FB09CA.A7B33632@trueorigin.org> <063f68ac.f1a8eab5@usw-ex0106-047.remarq.com> <38FB8DBE.8EC1A4B0@trueorigin.org> <38fcbd46$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <38FD1F1D.4C8489F6@trueorigin.org> <6ldqfsgev8c8djj9lrmpvs156itulm5nr1@4ax.com> <3905156A.205BDEB6@trueorigin.org> <3905D669.3C77C379@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en X-Complaints-To: abuse@qis.net To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Zeus Thibault wrote: > > > 1) Tim has claimed that *THE* creationist position is well > > > articulated implying he accepts one particular theory, yet > > > he hasn't offered it up. > > > > I see no need to "offer it up" when it is plainly available to > > all in the literature. For this same reason, I don't demand > > of every evolutionist participant in this forum that he explain > > to me the evolutionary hypothesis. (Why does this seem so hard > > for T.O. people to grasp?) > > You could still give us a reference that states the creationist > position. Any evolutionist could do similarly - so why don't > you? In fact, I gave several, earlier in this thread. > ...From my experience reading the literature, the 'creationist > position' is basically a highly heterogeneous attempt at > evolution demolition or scientific nihilism - neither of which > constitute a creation hypothesis. Oh? What specific "literature" have you been reading? > > Those who really want to have informed opinions on this > > topic will study the material that is available — including > > the creationary interpretation of the empirical data. Those > > who just want to shove their bigotry under everyone else's > > noses will pretty much ignore the data altogether and stick > > to cheap rhetoric. [Sadly, the latter seems to be the norm > > among the T.O. majority.] > > In fact, most of the active participants here in TO *have* > read a lot of creationist stuff - that's why we're here in TO. Well you do a fine job of concealing any objective familiarity with it — and I'm more persuaded you're here in TO due to an ostensible lack of the same. [You in particular (just for example) have spent most of your words with me on off-the-shelf evolutionist rhetoric, rather than telling me what, specifically, is so empirically compelling about your beliefs — and what, specifically, is so empirically questionable about mine. IMHO, that seems a bit odd for someone who pretends to have "read a lot of creationist stuff."] Tim Wallace From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 21:00:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 7C03417AFE; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:00:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14198 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:00:14 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id VAA22672 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:00:12 +0100 (BST) From: "tweedyd" X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 15:57:28 -0400 Organization: D&E SuperNet Lines: 35 Message-ID: <390de194@news.desupernet.net> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <3908DD3D.F0B412A4@pioneer-net.com> <39091216@news <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com> <390b7654$0$218@nntp1.ba.best.com> <390DA964.6756A05A@pioneer-net.com> X-Authentication-Warning: backdraft.briar.org: smap set sender to using -f X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.188.202 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.249.184.1 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Dan Smith wrote in message news:390DA964.6756A05A@pioneer-net.com... > > > Mark Isaak wrote: > > > > In article <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com>, > > Dan Smith wrote: > > >tweedyd wrote: > > >> None of this will do you any good until you take off your blinders, and > > >> look at the evidence. > > > > > >I'd be interested in your observed evidence of this phenomena. > > > > If you really are interested, then go look for yourself. > > Ha! Does that mean you refuse to look at the evidence? I have already posted a large number of links of observed instances of speciation. I can post them again, but to what point? You obviously are not going to look at them. Why should I waste my time? Dan, you admitted you were wrong once, can't you admit that maybe you don't know as much about the issue as you think you do? I urge you to go, read some of the infomation that has been presented to you, and take the oppurtunity to learn. Ignorance is not a crime, but willfull ignorance is nothing to be proud of. -- Dana J. Tweedy (animal bipes implume) From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 21:05:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 0755117AAE; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:05:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14846 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:05:12 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id VAA22788 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:05:11 +0100 (BST) From: "tweedyd" X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 16:03:28 -0400 Organization: D&E SuperNet Lines: 51 Message-ID: <390de303@news.desupernet.net> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <8efm1d$jj6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8efr8p$mdt$1@saltmine.radix.net> <390DAD23.D707F30D@pioneer-net.com> X-Authentication-Warning: backdraft.briar.org: smap set sender to using -f X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.188.202 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.249.184.1 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Dan Smith wrote in message news:390DAD23.D707F30D@pioneer-net.com... > > > Herb Huston wrote: > > > > In article <8efm1d$jj6$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > imjstaguy wrote: > > }Previously in this thread, someone asked 'How creationism works'. > > }Isn't that kind of implied in the name 'creationism'? God created the > > }universe, thus the word creationism. The mechanism of creationism is > > }God. > > > > So how does such a mechanism work, > > By divine power. How do we test divine power? Magic is not a testable mechanism. > > > where can it be observed in action, > > The mind of God is revealed in nature, in scripture, and in the hearts > and minds of believers. How can we OBJECTIVELY test this claim? Everything you state is subjective, therefore not testable. > > > and > > what predictions can be derived from a knowledge of its workings? > > There are many - mostly spiritual truths - but also many natural events > that have been predicted to occur. Would you be so kind as to name any of them? Have any of them occured? Can you cite any in peer reviewed literature? > I've tested many of the truths of the Bible and found them to be > verifiable. How have you tested them? Were your tests objective? Can anyone else get the same objective results if the test is repeated? What did you verify, and what method did you use to verify, other than your own expectations? -- Dana J. Tweedy (animal bipes implume) From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 21:20:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 598CD17A7D; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:20:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA15909 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:20:16 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id VAA01549 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:20:15 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: rokimoto6751@my-deja.com X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 16:15:16 -0400 Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 69 Message-ID: <8ekoio$tbe$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <390056B5.84EBDAD6@pioneer-net.com> <39009c3e.284859750@news.ptd.net> <3900CAA1.A0087830@pioneer-net.com> <3900e128.302508902@news.ptd.net> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <3905B6D4.36C09C5D@pioneer-net.com> <3908DD3D.F0B412A4@pioneer-net.com> <39091216@news.desupernet.net> <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com> <390bb5c5@news.desupernet.net> <390C5180.96CE2425@pioneer-net.com> <390DA929.8C63B447@pioneer-net.com> X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon May 01 20:14:33 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x24.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 130.184.19.61 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDrokimoto6751 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In article <390DA929.8C63B447@pioneer-net.com>, Dan Smith wrote: > > Big snip > > > > > >How could the number of dark moths be the result of mutation WHEN THE > > >DARK OR LIGHT COLORING WAS ALREADY CODED FOR??????? > > > > The dark form was identified *as a mutation* a while back. > > It isn't "already coded for"; it's a true (albeit > > more-than-usually-common) mutation. > > Let me get this straight, a small percentage of the moths have always > been dark, yet it's classified as a mutation? Is red hair in humans > classified as a mutation also? (Please say "Yes"! Please say "Yes"!) > > -- > God bless, > Dan > Red hair is considered to be both a mutation and a polymorphism in the human population. Several different mutations found in the melanocortin 1-receptor (MC1-R) have been associated with the red haired phenotype in humans. In cattle the red coat color phenotype is due to a small deletion frameshift mutation that causes a premature termination of the coding region of the MC1-R gene. Single base substitutions in the MC1-R gene are also associated with coat color variants in other animals such as sheep, pigs, foxes, goats, mice, and feather color in chickens. Humans are no different. The pigmentation system is more complex in that there are modifying genes that affect pigmentation in the hair, but the MC1-R gene seems to be a major gene for hair color. If you want the actual mutations go to PubMed and search "melanocortin 1-receptor" or "MC1-R." Red hair is inherited just like any other gene. No one knows when the various mutations occured, but a significant fraction of the population now has one or more of these red hair variants because they are decended from the persons with the original mutations. You would say that these variants were carried by the people on the Ark, but you could not demonstrate that they could not have occured as new mutations after the flood. If you have some reason to believe that red hair color in humans is a "god did it" type of mutation, why does it look like it is due to several different base substitutions (there is more than one red hair version of the gene)? Base substitutions are a very common type of mutation. Why wasn't God satisfied with only one type of red haired gene? There are some mutations that occur at a very high rate. The dark form of the moth maybe one of these mutations, but there are also multiple loci involved (more than one gene can mutate to produce a darker moth). An example in humans would be the fibroblast growth factor receptor 3 (FGFR3) gene in humans. This gene mutates at the same base-pair to the same new nucleotide (ie the same mutation occurs nearly everytime) at a frequency of 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 20,000 live births to produce achondroplastic dwarfism. So, even if every achondrioplastic dwarf were infertile and had no offspring the human population would produce thousands of them every generation. Why don't you believe that the moths could do the same thing? Ron Okimoto Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Mon May 1 23:55:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 775B717A43; Mon, 1 May 2000 23:55:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03337 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 23:55:15 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id XAA03501 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Mon, 1 May 2000 23:55:13 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Bob Casanova X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 18:52:42 -0400 Organization: AT&T Worldnet Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <3900CAA1.A0087830@pioneer-net.com> <3900e128.302508902@news.ptd.net> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <3905B6D4.36C09C5D@pioneer-net.com> <3908DD3D.F0B412A4@pioneer-net.com> <39091216@news.desupernet.net> <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com> <390bb5c5@news.desupernet.net> <390C5180.96CE2425@pioneer-net.com> <390DA929.8C63B447@pioneer-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On 1 May 2000 11:55:10 -0400, the following appeared in talk.origins, posted by Dan Smith : > > >Bob Casanova wrote: >> >> >> The dark form was identified *as a mutation* a while back. >> It isn't "already coded for"; it's a true (albeit >> more-than-usually-common) mutation. > >Let me get this straight, a small percentage of the moths have always >been dark, yet it's classified as a mutation? What part of "was identified as a mutation" is giving you trouble? > Is red hair in humans >classified as a mutation also? No. The mutation in the moths is (IIRC) similar (not in form, but in frequency of occurrence) to the mutation (not common, but not unknown) in gallinaceous birds (that's chickens, etc) which causes some of the leg scales to grow as feathers instead. (I just *love* parenthetical phrases...) > (Please say "Yes"! Please say "Yes"!) Why on Earth would I want to do that? (Note followups, if any) Bob C. Reply to Bob-Casanova @ worldnet.att.net (without the spaces, of course) "Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt." --H. L. Mencken From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Tue May 2 00:00:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 0702B17A6C; Tue, 2 May 2000 00:00:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA03828 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 00:00:20 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id AAA03523 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Tue, 2 May 2000 00:00:19 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Ken Cox X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 18:59:50 -0400 Organization: Lucent Technologies Lines: 16 Message-ID: <390E0C64.1142470A@research.bell-labs.com> References: <3900CAA1.A0087830@pioneer-net.com> <3900e128.302508902@news.ptd.net> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <3905B6D4.36C09C5D@pioneer-net.com> <3908DD3D.F0B412A4@pioneer-net.com> <39091216@news.desupernet.net> <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com> <390bb5c5@news.desupernet.net> <390C5180.96CE2425@pioneer-net.com> <390DA929.8C63B447@pioneer-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Original-From: Ken Cox X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72C-SGI [en] (X11; U; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Bob Casanova wrote: > Dan Smith : > >Let me get this straight, a small percentage of the moths have always > >been dark, yet it's classified as a mutation? > What part of "was identified as a mutation" is giving you > trouble? I think Dan is one of those people who confuses "mutation" with "tentacle". That would explain why he has trouble understanding that a mutation can produce an allele that already exists in the population. -- Ken Cox kcc@research.bell-labs.com From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Tue May 2 01:25:18 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 0B46417A6C; Tue, 2 May 2000 01:25:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA07973 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 01:25:14 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id BAA04587 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Tue, 2 May 2000 01:25:13 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: wf3h@ptd.net X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 20:23:13 -0400 Organization: PenTeleData http://www.ptd.net Lines: 37 Message-ID: <390e1fd1.162324095@news.ptd.net> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <38FF2B33.4C821CB9@pioneer-net.com> <390056B5.84EBDAD6@pioneer-net.com> <39009c3e.284859750@news.ptd.net> <3900CAA1.A0087830@pioneer-net.com> <3900e128.302508902@news.ptd.net> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <3905B6D4.36C09C5D@pioneer-net.com> <3908DD3D.F0B412A4@pioneer-net.com> <39091216@news.desupernet.net> <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com> <390bb5c5@news.desupernet.net> <390C5180.96CE2425@pioneer-net.com> <390c5d53.46949861@news.ptd.net> <390DA807.CCB06F3E@pioneer-net.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ptd.net To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On 1 May 2000 11:49:59 -0400, Dan Smith wrote: > > >wf3h@ptd.net wrote: >> >> On 30 Apr 2000 11:28:47 -0400, Dan Smith wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > >> >How could the number of dark moths be the result of mutation WHEN THE >> >DARK OR LIGHT COLORING WAS ALREADY CODED FOR??????? >> > >> >You guys believe this stuff? >> > >> >-- >> >> dan tells us alot about how he thinks scientists are wrong. >> >> he tells us nothing about how 'scientific creationism' thinks this >> happened.... > >How what happened? > >How moths that were either light or dark to begin with, continued to >evolve into moths that were either light or dark? > >What's to explain? > >-- what's to explain indeed... everything. try everything dan. since creationists explain absolutely NOTHING From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Tue May 2 01:30:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 0ED2917A6C; Tue, 2 May 2000 01:30:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA08260 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 01:30:18 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id BAA04593 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Tue, 2 May 2000 01:30:17 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: wf3h@ptd.net X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 20:25:45 -0400 Organization: PenTeleData http://www.ptd.net Lines: 42 Message-ID: <390e203a.162429452@news.ptd.net> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <8efm1d$jj6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8efr8p$mdt$1@saltmine.radix.net> <390DAD23.D707F30D@pioneer-net.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ptd.net To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On 1 May 2000 12:16:01 -0400, Dan Smith wrote: > > >Herb Huston wrote: >> >> In article <8efm1d$jj6$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, >> imjstaguy wrote: >> }Previously in this thread, someone asked 'How creationism works'. >> }Isn't that kind of implied in the name 'creationism'? God created the >> }universe, thus the word creationism. The mechanism of creationism is >> }God. >> >> So how does such a mechanism work, > >By divine power. oh...gee..theres a scientific explanation...that can be used for anything. why not just toss your computer away and let the internet work by god's power. who needs lithium niobate laser modulators when you can let god do it? > >> where can it be observed in action, > >The mind of God is revealed in nature, in scripture, and in the hearts >and minds of believers. it's not observed in the lab. so its not science > >> and >> what predictions can be derived from a knowledge of its workings? > >There are many - mostly spiritual truths - but also many natural events >that have been predicted to occur. >I've tested many of the truths of the Bible and found them to be >verifiable. > gee...good for you. and what hack hasnt made similar statements? From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Tue May 2 02:40:23 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 23B3317AAB; Tue, 2 May 2000 02:40:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11344 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 02:40:21 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id CAA05388 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Tue, 2 May 2000 02:40:20 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: wf3h@ptd.net X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: debate challenge Date: 1 May 2000 21:36:43 -0400 Organization: PenTeleData http://www.ptd.net Lines: 34 Message-ID: <390e30aa.166639004@news.ptd.net> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <38FB09CA.A7B33632@trueorigin.org> <063f68ac.f1a8eab5@usw-ex0106-047.remarq.com> <38FB8DBE.8EC1A4B0@trueorigin.org> <38fcbd46$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <38FD1F1D.4C8489F6@trueorigin.org> <6ldqfsgev8c8djj9lrmpvs156itulm5nr1@4ax.com> <3905156A.205BDEB6@trueorigin.org> <3905D669.3C77C379@hotmail.com> <390DE19F.A33BF142@trueorigin.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ptd.net To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On 1 May 2000 15:57:48 -0400, Timothy Wallace wrote: >Zeus Thibault wrote: >> >> In fact, most of the active participants here in TO *have* >> read a lot of creationist stuff - that's why we're here in TO. > >Well you do a fine job of concealing any objective familiarity with it since he's able to say as much about creationism as you are...that is, precisely nothing, it's obvious you creationists havent read your own literature >— and I'm more persuaded you're here in TO due to an ostensible lack >of the same. [You in particular (just for example) have spent most of >your words with me on off-the-shelf evolutionist rhetoric, jesus h. christ....if that dont beat all he spends hundreds of posts telling us creationism is too complicated then accuses others of running off at the mouth... rather than >telling me what, specifically, is so empirically compelling about your >beliefs uh, evolution has a mechanism. that is empirical when asked about how creationism is empirical, you refuse to answer... you're a hypocrite. From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Tue May 2 03:30:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id C84DD17AFE; Tue, 2 May 2000 03:30:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA13858 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 03:30:20 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id DAA05971 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Tue, 2 May 2000 03:30:14 +0100 (BST) From: Larry Handlin X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: debate challenge Date: 1 May 2000 22:29:31 -0400 Organization: Washington University in St. Louis Lines: 96 Message-ID: <7sesgs8lmofdo5cgvojtu3h2j6k2ogpqg9@4ax.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <38FB09CA.A7B33632@trueorigin.org> <063f68ac.f1a8eab5@usw-ex0106-047.remarq.com> <38FB8DBE.8EC1A4B0@trueorigin.org> <38fcbd46$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <38FD1F1D.4C8489F6@trueorigin.org> <6ldqfsgev8c8djj9lrmpvs156itulm5nr1@4ax.com> <3905156A.205BDEB6@trueorigin.org> <3905D669.3C77C379@hotmail.com> <390DE19F.A33BF142@trueorigin.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Authentication-Warning: backdraft.briar.org: smap set sender to using -f X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsreader.wustl.edu X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by wugate.wustl.edu id VAA28629 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darwin.ediacara.org id WAA29416 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On 1 May 2000 15:57:48 -0400, Timothy Wallace wrote: >Zeus Thibault wrote: > >> > > 1) Tim has claimed that *THE* creationist position is well >> > > articulated implying he accepts one particular theory, yet >> > > he hasn't offered it up. >> > >> > I see no need to "offer it up" when it is plainly available to >> > all in the literature. For this same reason, I don't demand >> > of every evolutionist participant in this forum that he explain >> > to me the evolutionary hypothesis. (Why does this seem so hard >> > for T.O. people to grasp?) >> >> You could still give us a reference that states the creationist >> position. Any evolutionist could do similarly - so why don't >> you? > >In fact, I gave several, earlier in this thread. No, the citations you gave were poor critiques of evolution. None of them stated a scientific theory of creation. Please provide. >> ...From my experience reading the literature, the 'creationist >> position' is basically a highly heterogeneous attempt at >> evolution demolition or scientific nihilism - neither of which >> constitute a creation hypothesis. > >Oh? What specific "literature" have you been reading? The creation literature. Have you read it? Please cite the actual scientific theory of creation. >> > Those who really want to have informed opinions on this >> > topic will study the material that is available — including >> > the creationary interpretation of the empirical data. Those >> > who just want to shove their bigotry under everyone else's >> > noses will pretty much ignore the data altogether and stick >> > to cheap rhetoric. [Sadly, the latter seems to be the norm >> > among the T.O. majority.] >> >> In fact, most of the active participants here in TO *have* >> read a lot of creationist stuff - that's why we're here in TO. > >Well you do a fine job of concealing any objective familiarity with it >— and I'm more persuaded you're here in TO due to an ostensible lack >of the same. No, Tim, many of have gone out of our way to find obscure creationist tracts. And many are quite obscure. The problem is there is no theory. Zeus presents an incredibly accurate view of what is presented. And you blindly cite creationist tracts and claim there is a theory. This is simply not true. They critique evolution--usually a strawman of evolution and offer a few points that show their views might be plausible. However, they never offer a scientific theory of creation. If I'm wrong--prove it. Cite me one source that lays out the scientific theory of creation. To show you that one who accepts biological evolution can--here talkorigins.org. The essentials of the theory are right there. Now please do the same. Note--I'll accept print sources, but I'd hope they aren't going to be some vanity publication. > [You in particular (just for example) have spent most of >your words with me on off-the-shelf evolutionist rhetoric, rather than >telling me what, specifically, is so empirically compelling about your >beliefs — and what, specifically, is so empirically questionable about >mine. IMHO, that seems a bit odd for someone who pretends to have >"read a lot of creationist stuff."] > ROTF. Zeus is actually about the second most patient person around here and extremely well read. As you have conveniently ignored I challenged you to address the 22 unique elements of evidence for macroevolution he offered to Mike Goodrich recently. Would you care to address those posts: http://x31.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=589493236 All 21 other posts are listed there. Cheers, Larry >Tim Wallace Reply to lbhandli@nospam.my-deja.com "The rest of the world is standing on the brink of a new millennium, and Kansas has voted itself back into the Stone Age." ---Robert Park "They laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Newton. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." -- Carl Sagan From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Tue May 2 03:50:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 2B57A17A60; Tue, 2 May 2000 03:50:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA14825 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 03:50:22 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id DAA06203 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Tue, 2 May 2000 03:50:21 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Matt Silberstein X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 22:46:02 -0400 Organization: Church Of Last Thursday Lines: 41 Message-ID: <8mesgsku9mv03j5dgrroq9c37a6e95bdup@4ax.com> References: <3900CAA1.A0087830@pioneer-net.com> <3900e128.302508902@news.ptd.net> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <3905B6D4.36C09C5D@pioneer-net.com> <3908DD3D.F0B412A4@pioneer-net.com> <39091216@news.desupernet.net> <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com> <390bb5c5@news.desupernet.net> <390C5180.96CE2425@pioneer-net.com> <390DA929.8C63B447@pioneer-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Server-Date: 2 May 2000 02:46:04 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In talk.origins I read <390DA929.8C63B447@pioneer-net.com> from Dan Smith : [snip] |Let me get this straight, a small percentage of the moths have always |been dark, yet it's classified as a mutation? No, you don't have it straight. The mutation that leads to dark moths is a simple point mutation (the details of which I don't have at hand). That means that people can look at the DNA and point to the change and point out which chemicals result from that change and how they lead to light moths. If you have a population of light moths you will have a small chance of getting a dark moth. Prior to the industrial revolution the dark variety was strongly selected against. As such there were few to no known dark moths from that time. (People collected moths even back then, particularly unusual ones.) Conditions changed during the IR and the dark moth had a greater chance of reproductive success. |Is red hair in humans |classified as a mutation also? (Please say "Yes"! Please say "Yes"!) Which red? Irish or the other kind? The Irish may be as it uses a chemical other than melanin. I have no idea if other animals use that chemical for coloring. And, in the larger scale of things, all current genes are mutations, variant forms of some earlier gene. --- Matt Silberstein (Honorary Radical Lesbian) The beast in me is caged by frail and fragile bars Restless by day and by night rants and rages at the stars God help the beast in me J. Cash From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Tue May 2 03:50:29 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 2802B17B08; Tue, 2 May 2000 03:50:26 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA14828 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 03:50:23 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id DAA06212 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Tue, 2 May 2000 03:50:22 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Matt Silberstein X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 22:47:37 -0400 Organization: Church Of Last Thursday Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <8efm1d$jj6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8efr8p$mdt$1@saltmine.radix.net> <390DAD23.D707F30D@pioneer-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Server-Date: 2 May 2000 02:46:58 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In talk.origins I read <390DAD23.D707F30D@pioneer-net.com> from Dan Smith : | | |Herb Huston wrote: |> |> In article <8efm1d$jj6$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, |> imjstaguy wrote: |> }Previously in this thread, someone asked 'How creationism works'. |> }Isn't that kind of implied in the name 'creationism'? God created the |> }universe, thus the word creationism. The mechanism of creationism is |> }God. |> |> So how does such a mechanism work, | |By divine power. I assume you oppose teaching this in the public schools. (Or do you actually want a theocracy in the U.S.?) And I assume that you do not argue that your "alternative" theory can be supported by actual evidence. |> where can it be observed in action, | |The mind of God is revealed in nature, in scripture, and in the hearts |and minds of believers. Translation: I have no evidence. |> and |> what predictions can be derived from a knowledge of its workings? | |There are many - mostly spiritual truths - but also many natural events |that have been predicted to occur. |I've tested many of the truths of the Bible and found them to be |verifiable. Please provide predictions regarding biology. Can you use your theory to predict what will happen to a population of bacteria given a particular regime of antibiotics? Or what fossils we will find in a particular layer? --- Matt Silberstein (Honorary Radical Lesbian) The beast in me is caged by frail and fragile bars Restless by day and by night rants and rages at the stars God help the beast in me J. Cash From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Tue May 2 03:50:28 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 86DC517AFE; Tue, 2 May 2000 03:50:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA14826 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 03:50:23 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id DAA06207 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Tue, 2 May 2000 03:50:21 +0100 (BST) From: Matt Silberstein X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 1 May 2000 22:46:27 -0400 Organization: Church Of Last Thursday Lines: 74 Message-ID: <37fsgsooo8stpeov7fgk7nqe0d0vlu4cjb@4ax.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <38FF2B33.4C821CB9@pioneer-net.com> <390056B5.84EBDAD6@pioneer-net.com> <39009c3e.284859750@news.ptd.net> <3900CAA1.A0087830@pioneer-net.com> <3900e128.302508902@news.ptd.net> <39019A4C.D4FBD6E3@pioneer-net.com> <8efm1d$jj6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Warning: backdraft.briar.org: smap set sender to using -f X-Server-Date: 2 May 2000 02:46:07 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In talk.origins I read <8efm1d$jj6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> from imjstaguy : | |> Why on Earth would you expect each mutation to be beneficial, |> even in the line that "succeeded"? |> > |> Bonz alt.atheism #1497 | |I wanted to comment on this post as well as the previous ones. | |I don't mean to be sarcastic, but your question kind of made me |wonder. First, it seems fairly obvious that for some organism to not |only to stay alive but to evolve, it would need beneficial mutations |and living conditions in general. For example, if a forest fire kills |some animals in the forest, that's NOT beneficial. OTOH it often is beneficial to other animals and plants. Prairie grasses, for example, tend to require fire to germinate. Almost as if they have evolved to adapt to the frequent fires on the prairie. | Or if some animal |is born with a bum leg or something, that NOT beneficial. It's usually |the slower wildebeasts that get eaten, right? And the slow lion that starves. |The point of an animal (assuming evolution is true) is to be the |fittest it can be. Nope, just barely fit enough. | But if it has some mutation that gave it some |quality that isn't beneficial, it's probably not going to live too |long. Animals in nature don't seem to be too terribly forgiving, for |the most part. No, again. Most changes are neutral. First off, if a change is in a non-coding region of the DNA it has no affect of the resultant organism. And there is a wide range of successful strategies. For a given wildebeest is it better to be bigger/fast if that requires more food? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. And so some of each survive. |Previously in this thread, someone asked 'How creationism works'. |Isn't that kind of implied in the name 'creationism'? God created the |universe, thus the word creationism. The mechanism of creationism is |God. Here is a major problem. There is this thing called Scientific Creationism, the notion that the Earth/Universe is young, that life suddenly appeared roughly like it looks today *and* that evidence supports this idea. That is the problematic version because its proponents claim it is *science* and so should be in schools and taught and such. Then there is your notion, God did, I believe it, that settles it. Now there is certainly no arguing against that idea. But if that is what you want to support then either you want a theocracy in the country or you oppose teaching creationism in schools. And you should probably call your fellow Christians (I assume you are a Christian) to task for promoting Scientific Creationism. --- Matt Silberstein (Honorary Radical Lesbian) The beast in me is caged by frail and fragile bars Restless by day and by night rants and rages at the stars God help the beast in me J. Cash From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Tue May 2 19:15:14 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 0234E17A67; Tue, 2 May 2000 19:15:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03404 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 19:15:12 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id TAA17477 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Tue, 2 May 2000 19:15:10 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Zeus Thibault X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: debate challenge Date: 2 May 2000 14:12:31 -0400 Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder, Dept. of Biochemistry Lines: 67 Message-ID: <390F1A8C.836DAEE4@hotmail.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <38FB09CA.A7B33632@trueorigin.org> <063f68ac.f1a8eab5@usw-ex0106-047.remarq.com> <38FB8DBE.8EC1A4B0@trueorigin.org> <38fcbd46$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <38FD1F1D.4C8489F6@trueorigin.org> <6ldqfsgev8c8djj9lrmpvs156itulm5nr1@4ax.com> <3905156A.205BDEB6@trueorigin.org> <3905D669.3C77C379@hotmail.com> <390DE19F.A33BF142@trueorigin.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: abuse@colorado.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha) X-Accept-Language: en To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Timothy Wallace wrote: > Zeus Thibault wrote: > > > > > 1) Tim has claimed that *THE* creationist position is well > > > > articulated implying he accepts one particular theory, yet > > > > he hasn't offered it up. > > > > > > I see no need to "offer it up" when it is plainly available to > > > all in the literature. For this same reason, I don't demand > > > of every evolutionist participant in this forum that he explain > > > to me the evolutionary hypothesis. (Why does this seem so hard > > > for T.O. people to grasp?) > > > > You could still give us a reference that states the creationist > > position. Any evolutionist could do similarly - so why don't > > you? > > In fact, I gave several, earlier in this thread. > > > ...From my experience reading the literature, the 'creationist > > position' is basically a highly heterogeneous attempt at > > evolution demolition or scientific nihilism - neither of which > > constitute a creation hypothesis. > > Oh? What specific "literature" have you been reading? Most recently, _Darwin on Trial_ and _Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds_ by P. Johnson, Behe's _Darwin's Black Box_, Gish's _Evolutionists Answer Their Critics_, rereading Gish's _The Fossils Say No!_, Denton's _Evolution: A Theory in Crisis_ , lots of Behe's, Dembski's, and Jonathan Well's online stuff, a couple of articles by Bergman, and your articles at TrueOrigins.org. > > > Those who really want to have informed opinions on this > > > topic will study the material that is available - including > > > the creationary interpretation of the empirical data. Those > > > who just want to shove their bigotry under everyone else's > > > noses will pretty much ignore the data altogether and stick > > > to cheap rhetoric. [Sadly, the latter seems to be the norm > > > among the T.O. majority.] > > > > In fact, most of the active participants here in TO *have* > > read a lot of creationist stuff - that's why we're here in TO. > > Well you do a fine job of concealing any objective familiarity with it > - and I'm more persuaded you're here in TO due to an ostensible lack > of the same. [You in particular (just for example) have spent most of > your words with me on off-the-shelf evolutionist rhetoric, rather than > telling me what, specifically, is so empirically compelling about your > beliefs - and what, specifically, is so empirically questionable about > mine. IMHO, that seems a bit odd for someone who pretends to have > "read a lot of creationist stuff."] The obvious reason that I have not presented or discussed any evidence with you yet is because our exchanges so far have not concerned the details of empirical evidence. The main thread in which we have engaged one another has been about philosophy of science - in particular whether CRS members have taken an oath to refrain from scientific practice. In response to your requests, I have opened up a new thread specifically to address specific scientific evidences, entitled "The Wallace Challenge." Zeus From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Tue May 2 22:10:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 5541317AA3; Tue, 2 May 2000 22:10:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25632 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 22:10:16 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id WAA28246 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Tue, 2 May 2000 22:10:11 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: hrgruemm@my-deja.com X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: debate challenge Date: 2 May 2000 17:06:19 -0400 Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <8end0k$rf1$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <38FB09CA.A7B33632@trueorigin.org> <063f68ac.f1a8eab5@usw-ex0106-047.remarq.com> <38FB8DBE.8EC1A4B0@trueorigin.org> <38fcbd46$0$219@nntp1.ba.best.com> <38FD1F1D.4C8489F6@trueorigin.org> <6ldqfsgev8c8djj9lrmpvs156itulm5nr1@4ax.com> <3905156A.205BDEB6@trueorigin.org> <3905D669.3C77C379@hotmail.com> <390DE19F.A33BF142@trueorigin.org> X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue May 02 20:15:33 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; QXW03302; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x29.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.2.4.178 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDhrgruemm To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In article <390DE19F.A33BF142@trueorigin.org>, Timothy Wallace wrote: > Zeus Thibault wrote: > > > In fact, most of the active participants here in TO *have* > > read a lot of creationist stuff - that's why we're here in TO. > > Well you do a fine job of concealing any objective familiarity with it Obviously we can be as familiar with creationist literature as we want. But if we point out its fallacies, distortions of evidence etc., we are not "objectively" familiar (whatever that means) ... ;-) HRG. > — and I'm more persuaded you're here in TO due to an ostensible lack > of the same. [You in particular (just for example) have spent most of > your words with me on off-the-shelf evolutionist rhetoric, rather than > telling me what, specifically, is so empirically compelling about your > beliefs — and what, specifically, is so empirically questionable about > mine. IMHO, that seems a bit odd for someone who pretends to have > "read a lot of creationist stuff."] > > Tim Wallace > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Wed May 3 00:05:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 2D4C217A6A; Wed, 3 May 2000 00:05:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA02393 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 00:05:15 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id AAA29657 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Wed, 3 May 2000 00:05:14 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Bob Casanova X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 2 May 2000 19:00:38 -0400 Organization: AT&T Worldnet Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3905B6D4.36C09C5D@pioneer-net.com> <3908DD3D.F0B412A4@pioneer-net.com> <39091216@news.desupernet.net> <390B2288.A2074CC@pioneer-net.com> <390bb5c5@news.desupernet.net> <390C5180.96CE2425@pioneer-net.com> <390DA929.8C63B447@pioneer-net.com> <390E0C64.1142470A@research.bell-labs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On 1 May 2000 18:59:50 -0400, the following appeared in talk.origins, posted by Ken Cox : >Bob Casanova wrote: >> Dan Smith : >> >Let me get this straight, a small percentage of the moths have always >> >been dark, yet it's classified as a mutation? > >> What part of "was identified as a mutation" is giving you >> trouble? > >I think Dan is one of those people who confuses "mutation" with >"tentacle". That would explain why he has trouble understanding >that a mutation can produce an allele that already exists in the >population. I think he has more trouble with the basic idea of recurring mutations. Yes, I know that's implied by your statement, but I believe it's the idea of a mutation *repeatedly* producing the *same* allele that has him up in arms. After all, "mutations are random" - *one* occurrence might be acceptable, but *repeated* occurrences...? (Note followups, if any) Bob C. Reply to Bob-Casanova @ worldnet.att.net (without the spaces, of course) "Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt." --H. L. Mencken From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Wed May 3 01:00:19 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 76A7417B4C; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:00:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA07016 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:00:16 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id BAA00470 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:00:15 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Matt Silberstein X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 2 May 2000 19:58:41 -0400 Organization: Church Of Last Thursday Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <39070348.90F55D44@research.bell-labs.com> <3908D229.BCB8085D@pioneer-net.com> <3909AF1A.9C62D768@research.bell-labs.com> <8eekvu$a9q$1@saltmine.radix.net> <390DAB3F.5D8B85C6@research.bell-labs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Server-Date: 2 May 2000 23:58:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In talk.origins I read <390DAB3F.5D8B85C6@research.bell-labs.com> from Ken Cox : |Herb Huston wrote: |> Ken Cox wrote: |> }to the original mutant, who lived around 1400 IIRC. | |> If I'm remembering the _60 Minutes_ telecast correctly, the mutant died |> about 1790. They showed his gravestone. | |Probably right. All I could recall was that it was around the |Renaissance. Sigh. I suppose, in geologica/evolutionary terms that is around the Renaissance. After all, what is a few hundred years in those terms. --- Matt Silberstein (Honorary Radical Lesbian) The beast in me is caged by frail and fragile bars Restless by day and by night rants and rages at the stars God help the beast in me J. Cash From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Wed May 3 01:00:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 49DC117B4C; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:00:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA07021 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:00:18 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id BAA00474 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:00:16 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Matt Silberstein X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 2 May 2000 19:59:58 -0400 Organization: Church Of Last Thursday Lines: 41 Message-ID: <7nqugs0llrif1k52hvs709caj1cb4dqu9c@4ax.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <3908D7F9.C3948070@pioneer-net.com> <8ehj54$gf5$1@saltmine.radix.net> <8ehjd1$lf1$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <8ehke6$jbb$1@saltmine.radix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Server-Date: 3 May 2000 00:00:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In talk.origins I read from wrightn9920@my-deja.com: |On 30 Apr 2000 11:45:49 -0400, huston@Radix.Net (Herb Huston) wrote: | |>In article <8ehjd1$lf1$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>, |>Chris C. wrote: |>}> }The Bible is more than just isolated verses that we can pick and choose |>}> }between. If you read the whole thing, it tells you "how". |>}> |>}> How do leporids redigest their food? |>} |>}What the hell is a leoporid? |> |>I don't know what leoporids are, but leporids are members of a family |>within the Lagomorph order. The other lagomorphic family is the |>ochotonids. |> |>Some famous leporids have attended mad tea parties and starred in Warner |>Bros. cartoons. | |leoporids, too. "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof", "Lion King", "Fritz the |Cat"... Nope. Leoporids would be in MGM cartoons. --- Matt Silberstein (Honorary Radical Lesbian) The beast in me is caged by frail and fragile bars Restless by day and by night rants and rages at the stars God help the beast in me J. Cash From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Wed May 3 01:05:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 4562917A90; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:05:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA07412 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:05:13 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id BAA00493 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:05:12 +0100 (BST) From: Matt Silberstein X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 2 May 2000 20:03:25 -0400 Organization: Church Of Last Thursday Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <390480C8.CC93D7E4@pioneer-net.com> <01bfae14$b4289280$7f009696@paul> <3908D965.83B11C06@pioneer-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Warning: backdraft.briar.org: smap set sender to using -f X-Server-Date: 3 May 2000 00:03:24 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In talk.origins I read <3908D965.83B11C06@pioneer-net.com> from Dan Smith : [snip] |Without God, the farmer doesn't grow either. In fact without God, |nothing would exist. That's just the way the universe works. Ok. Would you say without God ice would not freeze? That without God thunderstorms would not occur? I will assume you do. Do you also accept the scientific explanations for water freezing and thunderstorms? Or do you insist that we explain this by saying God did it and only God did it? Assuming you accept these explanations (while also believing that God did it) why can't you accept the scientific explanation for the diversity of life (while still believing that God did it)? [snip] --- Matt Silberstein (Honorary Radical Lesbian) The beast in me is caged by frail and fragile bars Restless by day and by night rants and rages at the stars God help the beast in me J. Cash From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Wed May 3 01:30:17 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id DEBD217A66; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:30:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA08762 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:30:14 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id BAA00838 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:30:12 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: huston@Radix.Net (Herb Huston) X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 2 May 2000 20:26:09 -0400 Organization: RadixNet Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8enrmu$c8b$1@saltmine.radix.net> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <8eekvu$a9q$1@saltmine.radix.net> <390DAB3F.5D8B85C6@research.bell-labs.com> To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In article , Matt Silberstein wrote: }In talk.origins I read <390DAB3F.5D8B85C6@research.bell-labs.com> }from Ken Cox : }|Herb Huston wrote: }|> Ken Cox wrote: }|> }to the original mutant, who lived around 1400 IIRC. }| }|> If I'm remembering the _60 Minutes_ telecast correctly, the mutant died }|> about 1790. They showed his gravestone. }| }|Probably right. All I could recall was that it was around the }|Renaissance. } }Sigh. I suppose, in geologica/evolutionary terms that is around the }Renaissance. After all, what is a few hundred years in those terms. And anything within the last ten thousand years is Recent. -- -- Herb Huston -- huston@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~huston From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Wed May 3 06:10:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 37FBB17A6D; Wed, 3 May 2000 06:10:07 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA27253 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 06:10:05 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id GAA04059 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Wed, 3 May 2000 06:10:04 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: hrgruemm@my-deja.com X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 3 May 2000 01:06:53 -0400 Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 69 Message-ID: <8eoc3e$td5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <390480C8.CC93D7E4@pioneer-net.com> <01bfae14$b4289280$7f009696@paul> <3908D965.83B11C06@pioneer-net.com> X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed May 03 05:05:58 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; QXW03302; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x33.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.2.4.84 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDhrgruemm To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In article <3908D965.83B11C06@pioneer-net.com>, Dan Smith wrote: > > > Paul Yost wrote: > > > > Dan Smith wrote in article > > <390480C8.CC93D7E4@pioneer-net.com>... > > > > > > Limiting the Lord to a 6000 year span of time for > > > > creation is placing bounds on the divinity so that > > > > your interpretation of His Word might be true. Don't > > > > let arrogance blind you to the majesty of the universe. > > > > > Believe me, that's not my goal at all. But I'm also not going to abandon > > > my beliefs based on spotty evidence that is strung together into a > > > theory by scientist's guesses. I'd be foolish to do so in the light of > > > God's word. > Without God, the farmer doesn't grow either. In fact without God, > nothing would exist. That's just the way the universe works. Is this statement of yours: - an assumption ? - a postulate/axiom ? - a conclusion from some evidence ? - other (please specify) ? > > The wealth of those who work tends to > > increase, whereas the wealth of those who sit around waiting for good > > things to fall into their laps erodes away. > > > > Your philosophy is all well and good, but it ignores much of the > revealed word of the God you seem to speak of. Is the claim inherent in your statement (that some word of some God *has* been revealed to mankind): - an assumption ? - a postulate/axiom ? - a conclusion from some evidence ? - other (please specify) ? Inquiring minds would like to know. HRG. > God bless, > Dan > > *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* > "For since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities > - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly shown, being > understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." > - St. Paul - Letter to the believers in Rome, circa 56 A.D. > *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Wed May 3 13:57:52 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id AA00617B6D; Wed, 3 May 2000 13:55:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05242 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 13:55:11 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id NAA09786 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Wed, 3 May 2000 13:55:10 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: scharle@maimonides.helios.nd.edu (Thomas Scharle) X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Followup-To: talk.origins Date: 3 May 2000 08:50:20 -0400 Organization: University of Notre Dame Lines: 38 Message-ID: <8ep7a8$ia2@news.nd.edu> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <390480C8.CC93D7E4@pioneer-net.com> <01bfae14$b4289280$7f009696@paul> <3908D965.83B11C06@pioneer-net.com> <8eoc3e$td5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk hrgruemm@my-deja.com wrote: : In article <3908D965.83B11C06@pioneer-net.com>, : Dan Smith wrote: [...snip...] : > Without God, the farmer doesn't grow either. In fact without God, : > nothing would exist. That's just the way the universe works. [...snip...] (Apologies for piggybacking.) (Followup to talk.origins only.) I would like to hear from anyone who accepts this, and uses this as a basis for denying evolution (macroevolution, the relationship between humans and chimps, the origin of life, whatever). Can you accept the idea that what and how the farmer grows crops, raises and breeds animals, knows about the seasons, and so on, by more-or-less scientific means? Even if all the details of where cattle come from, how rain falls, how to accurately predict the weather, are not known ... in other words, that the farmer works on a certain amount of *naturalistic* assumptions. Can you accept naturalistic agriculture and also accept that "Without God, the farmer doesn't grow either. In fact without God, nothing would exist."? I trust that no one finds any conflict between naturalistic agriculture and faith in God. Therefore, I would like to know why it is any different with things like whether birds are related to dinosaurs. -- Tom Scharle scharle.1@nd.edu "standard disclaimer" From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Wed May 3 15:45:12 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id BCA3117AC9; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:45:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20190 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:45:08 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id PAA11221 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:45:07 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Ken Cox X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 3 May 2000 10:41:56 -0400 Organization: Lucent Technologies Lines: 19 Message-ID: <39103AB6.6DB4EC2A@research.bell-labs.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <39070348.90F55D44@research.bell-labs.com> <3908D229.BCB8085D@pioneer-net.com> <3909AF1A.9C62D768@research.bell-labs.com> <8eekvu$a9q$1@saltmine.radix.net> <390DAB3F.5D8B85C6@research.bell-labs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Original-From: Ken Cox X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72C-SGI [en] (X11; U; IRIX64 6.5 IP30) X-Accept-Language: en To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Matt Silberstein wrote: > Ken Cox : > |Herb Huston wrote: > |> If I'm remembering the _60 Minutes_ telecast correctly, the mutant died > |> about 1790. They showed his gravestone. > |Probably right. All I could recall was that it was around the > |Renaissance. > Sigh. I suppose, in geologica/evolutionary terms that is around the > Renaissance. After all, what is a few hundred years in those terms. Sorry, I had a brain freeze-up on the term for the period that resulted from the Renaissance, and lumped it all together. "Age of Enlightenment", if I recall correctly? -- Ken Cox kcc@research.bell-labs.com From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Wed May 3 23:35:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 6230317A58; Wed, 3 May 2000 23:35:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA17550 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 23:35:15 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id XAA25538 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Wed, 3 May 2000 23:35:14 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Bob Casanova X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 3 May 2000 18:34:55 -0400 Organization: AT&T Worldnet Lines: 37 Message-ID: <18a1hs07ehi6ehs23fb127kvg385obo64p@4ax.com> References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <39070348.90F55D44@research.bell-labs.com> <3908D229.BCB8085D@pioneer-net.com> <3909AF1A.9C62D768@research.bell-labs.com> <8eekvu$a9q$1@saltmine.radix.net> <390DAB3F.5D8B85C6@research.bell-labs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On 2 May 2000 19:58:41 -0400, the following appeared in talk.origins, posted by Matt Silberstein : >In talk.origins I read <390DAB3F.5D8B85C6@research.bell-labs.com> >from Ken Cox : > >|Herb Huston wrote: >|> Ken Cox wrote: >|> }to the original mutant, who lived around 1400 IIRC. >| >|> If I'm remembering the _60 Minutes_ telecast correctly, the mutant died >|> about 1790. They showed his gravestone. >| >|Probably right. All I could recall was that it was around the >|Renaissance. > >Sigh. I suppose, in geologica/evolutionary terms that is around the >Renaissance. After all, what is a few hundred years in those terms. Close to 500, actually. I believe "Renaissance" and "Industrial Revolution" may have become conflated here... (Note followups, if any) Bob C. Reply to Bob-Casanova @ worldnet.att.net (without the spaces, of course) "Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt." --H. L. Mencken From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Thu May 4 10:05:26 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id A4FC617ABA; Thu, 4 May 2000 10:05:24 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28699 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 10:05:06 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id KAA03010 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Thu, 4 May 2000 10:05:05 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: Martin Crisp X-Newsgroups: talk.origins,bionet.info-theory Subject: Re: modified theory of evolution Date: 4 May 2000 05:01:17 -0400 Organization: Tesseract Computing & Tourism Tasmania Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <38F73E3E.E8AF3ECD@pioneer-net.com> <38FF2B33.4C821CB9@pioneer-net.com> <39005B63.137664C6@pioneer-net.com> <9t27gs81gkbm8v4uomaa2cn6mpgtmtohqp@4ax.com> <3908D24B.C93641BC@pioneer-net.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-ISP-Rating: less than ordinary X-demunging: The from address *is* VALID X-Rating: recommended viewing X-IQ: dim-bulb X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.109.83.6 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In article , bonz@mad.scientist.com wrote: > On 27 Apr 2000 19:48:49 -0400, Dan Smith > wrote in message <3908D24B.C93641BC@pioneer-net.com> : > > > > > > >Bonz wrote: > >> > >> On 21 Apr 2000 09:42:52 -0400, Dan Smith > >> wrote in message <39005B63.137664C6@pioneer-net.com> : > >> > >> >> Yes, it is. In fact it's *so* falsifiable that it's already > >> >> been falsified, since the preponderance of the evidence > >> >> disagrees and there is no evidence in support. Think > >> >> "phlogiston" and "aether". Care to try again? > >> > > >> >How has it been falsified? Can you name a verified instance of > >> >evolution > >> >of new features - or of a lifeform that does not appear suddenly and > >> >fully formed and functional in the fossil record? > >> > >> What does "fully formed and functional" mean? Are humans today > >> "fully formed and functional"? How can you tell? > > > > > >Some more so that others. > > That is a serious question. How do you know if humans today are > "fully formed and functional"? > > Why do I expect another evasion? :) Have Fun Martin -- Kinky: What I do that you wouldn't Perverted: What you do that I wouldn't From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Thu May 4 19:20:16 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 1F52817AD1; Thu, 4 May 2000 19:20:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28791 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 19:20:14 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id TAA10122 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Thu, 4 May 2000 19:20:13 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: weedlet@my-deja.com X-Newsgroups: bionet.info-theory Subject: [Help] Creation or Evolution? Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 18:07:33 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 46 Message-ID: <8ese8l$fj9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 04 18:07:33 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x37.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 208.234.196.100 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDweedlet To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I used to be a 120% evolution believer and lover, then to 95%, then to 80%, then to 60%, now to 5%. I want to start this discussion because I want to find out the real truth and I don't want to be wrong. My view of creation/evolution: evolution is a (very) beautiful theory, but 1) it lacks evidences. I've simply not seen an intermediate species in any natural form in my life. I've been to some big natural museums, but haven't seen a signle species in an intermediate form. The famouse "original bird" (is this how it is called in English?) is fake. The broken pieces of bones are not convincing at all; 2) it contradicts "neutral evolution". In molecular biology theory, most mutations are neutral; 3) related to 2), the universe just does not have enough time for an ameaba to evolve into a human being. The computation could be very complicated, and I agree that I've not done a thorough study/research on population genetics, but I know that if the advantage of one genotype vs. another is not high ("neutral evolution" theory indicates that there is no advantage of one vs. the other in most cases), it takes extremely long time for that gene to be dominant in population. And during the period of this evolution, you will see a lot of intermediate forms of the genotypes, which is neither seen in real life, nor in fossiles. I think, evolution may play a role in "getting better" in the history of a species, but it won't be a major form of origin of species. So, it leaves only 5% chance for me to think about evolution, 95% for the rest. Please discuss in peace about science (the truth), don't mess up with feelings of relegion. Thanks a lot. -- Weedlet Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Thu May 4 19:58:20 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 4373317B1C; Thu, 4 May 2000 19:58:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02135 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 19:58:16 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id TAA10595 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Thu, 4 May 2000 19:58:11 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: "Justin Cobb" X-Newsgroups: bionet.info-theory References: <8ese8l$fj9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: [Help] Creation or Evolution? Lines: 57 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Proxy-Client: jacobb@uiuc.edu from arbor.armoryhouse.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:02:18 -0500 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uiuc.edu X-Trace: vixen.cso.uiuc.edu 957466666 128.174.5.27 (Thu, 04 May 2000 13:57:46 CDT) Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Take a look at the thread, "debate challenge." It's a long thread, but we've discussed all of these points already on that thread. -- Justin Cobb Sophomore, Biology-General University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign School of Life Sciences wrote in message news:8ese8l$fj9$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > I used to be a 120% evolution believer and lover, then to 95%, then to > 80%, then to 60%, now to 5%. > > I want to start this discussion because I want to find out the real > truth and I don't want to be wrong. > > My view of creation/evolution: evolution is a (very) beautiful theory, > but > > 1) it lacks evidences. I've simply not seen an intermediate species in > any natural form in my life. I've been to some big natural museums, but > haven't seen a signle species in an intermediate form. The famouse > "original bird" (is this how it is called in English?) is fake. The > broken pieces of bones are not convincing at all; > > 2) it contradicts "neutral evolution". In molecular biology theory, most > mutations are neutral; > > 3) related to 2), the universe just does not have enough time for an > ameaba to evolve into a human being. The computation could be very > complicated, and I agree that I've not done a thorough study/research on > population genetics, but I know that if the advantage of one genotype > vs. another is not high ("neutral evolution" theory indicates that there > is no advantage of one vs. the other in most cases), it takes extremely > long time for that gene to be dominant in population. And during the > period of this evolution, you will see a lot of intermediate forms of > the genotypes, which is neither seen in real life, nor in fossiles. I > think, evolution may play a role in "getting better" in the history of a > species, but it won't be a major form of origin of species. > > So, it leaves only 5% chance for me to think about evolution, 95% for > the rest. > > Please discuss in peace about science (the truth), don't mess up with > feelings of relegion. > > Thanks a lot. > > -- Weedlet > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. From owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Thu May 4 20:31:34 2000 Return-Path: Received: by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix, from userid 110) id 7516017AE9; Thu, 4 May 2000 20:31:33 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04785 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 20:31:31 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id UAA10956 for bio-info-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Thu, 4 May 2000 20:31:30 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: "Del" X-Newsgroups: bionet.info-theory Subject: TRACKING 2000 Date: 04 May 2000 15:31:28 EDT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 39 Message-ID: <8esj6g$55h@chronicle.concentric.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 To: bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-bio-info@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk A Call for Presenters Tracking 2000 The 2nd Annual International Tracking Symposium October 6-8, 2000 Knight Camp, Hotchkiss, Colorado, USA Sponsored by the International Society of Professional Trackers Last October, Tracking '99 in Petaluma, California successfully brought together approximately 100 trackers of all backgrounds from throughout North America, and some special guests from across the globe. This first ever event of its kind fostered understanding and stimulated communication between ALL trackers; animal trackers and 'man trackers,' professional and amateur; law enforcement, search and rescue, forensic investigation, nature study, game hunters, naturalists, recreational, photo journalists, hunting guides, trappers,