From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Tue Dec 01 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!agate!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!164.67.43.25!news.ucla.edu!not-for-mail From: "k" Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics Subject: Re: biophysics paper Date: 2 Dec 1998 03:58:11 GMT Organization: Preferred Company Lines: 12 Message-ID: <01be1da9$2b2cfe00$910ed9cf@TheDaniel> References: <3660C628.5EC7@warwick.net> <01be1b60$c24d2a80$5d0ed9cf@TheDaniel> <36615DB6.46A1@warwick.net> <01be1be6$2fc63720$6d0dd9cf@TheDaniel> <3661D5F6.DD5@warwick.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool0017-max7.ucla-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Sorry, the book I mentioned is not in print yet. Try looking for an introductory physics text by Sternheim and Kane, though. It's a terrible book (IMO) but I think it covers fracture stresses for bones. Cheers, Kevin From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Tue Dec 01 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!agate!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-stock.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.he.net!news.pagesat.net!news.itis.com!not-for-mail From: "Petr Kuzmic" Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics Subject: Program DYNAFIT updated Date: 2 Dec 1998 05:13:39 GMT Organization: BioKin Ltd. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <01be1db2$b726a560$6e0e53d1@dev> NNTP-Posting-Host: a14-46.itis.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Version 3.14 of program DynaFit [P. Kuzmic (1996) Anal. Biochem. 237, 260-273] is available for download at http://www.biokin.com/dynafit/. The program is useful for the statistical analysis of chemical kinetic, enzyme kinetic, and receptor binding data. __________________________________________________________ Petr Kuzmic * B i o K i n Ltd. * http://www.biokin.com From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Tue Dec 01 22:00:00 1998 From: "clive delmonte" Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.xtallography,bionet.molec-model Subject: DNA Structure: Puzzle Number 5 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:10:34 -0000 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.7.227.213 Message-ID: <3665733a.0@news.netdirect.net.uk> X-Trace: 2 Dec 1998 17:04:58 GMT, 195.7.227.213 Path: biosci!news.stanford.edu!su-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!amsterdam1-snf1!news.gtei.net!diablo.theplanet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peer.news.nildram.co.uk!news-peer.netdirect.net.uk!news.netdirect.net.uk!195.7.227.213 Lines: 53 Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4612 bionet.xtallography:4504 bionet.molec-model:2336 The Crystallographers' Paradox Several teams of crystallographers have reported on the interconversion of the B to the Z form under very mild conditions inside solid fibres of drawn DNA (26,27), as well as the B to D form conversion under similar, very mild conditions (28) The very mild conditions are interpreted by some (27,28) to mean that the B and Z forms, and the B and D forms, respectively, must have the same helical handedness. (Another team (26) seems to offer no interpretation of their observation of the B to Z transition inside a fibre.) The reversible conversion inside fibres of the A to, and from, the B form has been known for many years, and therefore the A, B, D and Z forms would all seem to have the same helical handedness. However, there are many studies of diffraction from true oligonucleotide crystals which purport to show that the A and B forms are right-handed, for example (29,30), and purport to show that the Z form is left-handed, for example (31). How can all the crystallographers be right ? 26 Polymorphism of DNA Double Helices; A.G.W. Leslie, S. Arnott, R. Chandrasekaran & R.L. Ratliff; J Mol Biol Vol 143 (1980) 49 - 72 27 B to Z Transition in a DNA Fibre: The Question of Handedness of the Duplex; V. Sasisekharan & S.K. Brahmachari; Current Science Vol 50 (1981) 10 - 13 28 Time-resolved X-ray Diffraction Studies of the B to D Structural Transition in the DNA Double Helix; A. Mahendrasingham, V.T. Forsyth, R. Hussain, R.J. Greenall, W.J. Pigram & W. Fuller; SCIENCE Vol 233 (1986) 195 - 197 29 Conformation of d(GGGATCCC) x 2 in crystals and in solution studied by X-ray diffraction, Raman spectroscopy and molecular modelling; H. Fabian, W. Holzer, U. Heinemann, H. Sklenar & H. Welfle; Nucleic Acids Research Vol 21 (1993) 569 - 576 30 Crystal Structure Analysis of a Complete Turn of B-DNA; R. Wing, H. Drew, T. Takano, C. Broka, S. Tanaka, K. Itakura & R.E. Dickerson; Nature Vol 287 (1980) 755 - 758 31 Molecular Structure of a Left-handed Double Helical DNA Fragment at Atomic Resolution; A.H.-J. Wang, G.J. Quigley, F.J. Kolpak, J.L. Crawford, J.H. van Boom, G. van der Marel & A. Rich; Nature Vol 282 (1979) 680 - 686 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Clive Delmonte From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Wed Dec 02 22:00:00 1998 From: "clive delmonte" Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.molec-model,bionet.xtallography Subject: DNA Structure: Puzzle Number 6 Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 07:37:37 -0000 Lines: 50 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.7.227.194 Message-ID: <3666bd28.0@news.netdirect.net.uk> X-Trace: 3 Dec 1998 16:32:40 GMT, 195.7.227.194 Path: biosci!news.stanford.edu!su-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!194.72.7.126!btnet-peer!btnet!news.freedom2surf.net!peer.news.nildram.co.uk!news-peer.netdirect.net.uk!news.netdirect.net.uk!195.7.227.194 Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4614 bionet.molec-model:2337 bionet.xtallography:4505 Leslie et al.(Puzzle 5, re. 26) reported that a fibre of poly(dI).poly(dC), which gave sharp X-ray diffraction spots shortly after being drawn, was unstable and transformed irreversibly after a few days into poly(dC).poly(dI).poly(dC+). This new, three-stranded molecule also gave sharp spots in its own X-ray diffraction pattern which did not have any of the original spots. Therefore the conversion was complete. Very similar results had been reported for fibres of poly(dA).poly(dT) converting to poly(dT).poly(dA).poly(dT) (9) and for the formation of poly(U).poly(A).poly(U) from poly(U).poly(A) (10). The problem is evident: How and where would the torque arise inside a solid fibre that would permit one double helix to rotate so as to unwind one strand and rewind it onto an adjacent triple helix having a different diameter and rotating at a different angular velocity ? Inside the fibre, individual molecules would have a random axial translation so only very rarely would two adjacent double helices have the same axial starting point down the fibre, and they would be unlikely to be perfectly straight inside the fibre but would probably be entwined around neighbours. How would there be a very high conversion of double to triple stranded molecules when any rotation of adjacent double helices would normally find the free ends of one of them axially displaced down the fibre compared to its neighbour ? 9 Structures for the Polynucleotide Complexes Poly(dA).Poly(dT) & Poly(dT).Poly(dA).Poly(dT); Struther Arnott & E. Selsing; J Mol Biol Vol 88 (1974) 509-521 10 Structures for Poly(U).poly(A).poly(U) Triple Stranded Polynucleotides; Struther Arnott & P.J. Bond; Nature New Biology Vol 244 (1973) 99-101 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Clive Delmonte From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Thu Dec 03 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!YAHOO.COM!jun8746 From: jun8746@YAHOO.COM Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics Subject: re your internet site Date: 4 Dec 1998 00:33:14 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 70 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <199812040832.AAA28146@net.bio.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net We'll Submit Your Site To Over 900 Search Engines, Directories, & Indices For A "One Time Cost" Of Only $39.95 *** 100% Money Back Guarantee *** *** Immediately Increase Your Sites Exposure *** For Less Than 4 Cents Each We Will Submit Your Web Site To Over 900 Of The Net's Hottest Search Engines, Directories & Indices. If your site isn't listed in the Search Engines, how can people find you to buy your products or services? For just $39.95 we'll take the work load off your back instead of you trying to do it manually which can take days to do. We're the professionals that are here to help you have a shot at having a successful marketing experience with the internet. You know as well as we that your time is best utilized managing your business and not sitting at some keyboard hours upon hours trying to save less than 4 cents for each submission. See how it's kind of crazy to try to tackle this on your own. It's just not cost effective to try to do this yourself to save just $39.95. See why thousands and thousands of businesses world wide both large and small have come to us to utilize our services. Hotels, Motels, On-Line Stores, Travel Agents, Colleges, Universities, Governments, Fortune 500 companies, Movie Studios, Chambers Of Commerce and many, many more. Shouldn't you give us a call now? To Learn More, Call Us At The Numbers Below. Call us toll free at (800) 771-2003 in the USA and Canada or outside the USA at (916) 771-4739 and we'll provide you with all the necessary information to get you submitted Right Away. To be removed from our mailing list, please respond with the word remove in the subject. From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Thu Dec 03 22:00:00 1998 From: "clive delmonte" Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.molec-model Subject: DNA Structure: Puzzle Number 7 Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 19:14:55 -0000 Lines: 43 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.7.225.147 Message-ID: <36680781.0@news.netdirect.net.uk> X-Trace: 4 Dec 1998 16:02:09 GMT, 195.7.225.147 Path: biosci!news.stanford.edu!su-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!194.72.7.126!btnet-peer!btnet!news.freedom2surf.net!peer.news.nildram.co.uk!news-peer.netdirect.net.uk!news.netdirect.net.uk!195.7.225.147 Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4616 bionet.molec-model:2338 McGhee & Felsenfeld (12) reacted nucleosomal DNA with dimethyl sulphate and recorded their surprise at their results: "We are unable to detect any significant difference between the reactivity of the N7 of guanines in nucleosomal DNA and of that in naked DNA... Contrary to our expectation, there is no detectable periodic modulation of reactivity corresponding to the twist of DNA on the nucleosome surface... Judging from the relative concentration of intact unreacted DNA remaining, the guanines in the nucleosome reacted about 20 - 30% FASTER (their emphasis) than in the isolated DNA... " For a double helix, about half the DNA wrapped around a nucleosome core should lie on the inside in contact with the histone proteins, or up against adjacent turns of the DNA and therefore offer reduced accessibility to methylation. Crucially, the double helix offers no clue as to how the methylation of nucleosomal DNA could be faster than it is for naked DNA. There is a clue in the true side-by-side structure found by Lee et al. (Puzzle 1, ref. 1). With the base pairs linked directly across the sugar-phopsphate chains, and stacked upon each other, all the base pairs would be equally exposed to the methylating reagent. The reaction could be faster when wound onto nucleosomal cores because there would be no folding up of the DNA, which would obstruct the approach of the reagent, as is found in DNA in solution. 12 Reaction of Nucleosomal DNA with Dimethyl Sulfate; J.D. McGhee & G. Felsenfeld; Proc. Nat. Acad. Sci. (USA) Vol 76 (1979) 2133 - 2137 ------------------------------------------------------------ Clive Delmonte From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Fri Dec 04 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!agate!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!oleane!pasteur.fr!jussieu.fr!infobiogen.fr!lovelace.infobiogen.fr!dessen From: dessen@lovelace.infobiogen.fr (Philippe Dessen) Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics Subject: FEBS'99 - 26th FEBS Meeting on June 19-24, 1999, Nice, France Date: 5 Dec 1998 08:14:33 GMT Organization: GIS INFOBIOGEN, 7 rue Guy Moquet BP8, 94801 VILLEJUIF, France Lines: 101 Message-ID: <74aq19$m8k@caroll.infobiogen.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: lovelace.infobiogen.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Federation of European Biochemical Societies FEBS'99 - 26th FEBS Meeting on June 19-24, 1999, Nice, France. Second announcement INVITATION On behalf of the "Société Française de Biochimie et Biologie Moléculaire" you are cordially invited to participate in the 26th FEBS Meeting, on June 19-24, 1999 in Nice. The Scientific Committee and the Organizing Committee are making every effort to ensure that the Meeting will be of high scientific level and that your stay with us will be a pleasant one. An outstanding Scientific Programme with prestigious speakers has been prepared. The topics will cover both specific problems in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, and also biochemical aspects of numerous essential processes of Cellular Biology, Pharmacology and Medicine. We feel sure that the Meeting taking place in the unique setting of Nice-Côte d'Azur will provide the appropriate milieu for the exchange of new information, promote discussion and encourage the establishment of future collaborations. The organizers look forward to your participation and to welcoming you and your family. CONGRESS PLACE The Meeting will be held in the Convention Center " Acropolis", situated in the heart of Nice, 10 min from the Old Town, from the beaches and the Promenade des Anglais. TIME Saturday, June 19 : Registration, Opening ceremony (at 6 p.m.), Opening lecture, Reception. Sunday, June 20 - Thursday, June 24, noon : Scientific programme. ORGANIZING COMMITTEE Marianne Grunberg-Manago (Honorary Chairwoman) Guy Dirheimer (Chairman) Sylvain Blanquet (Vice-Chairman) Gérard Keith (Treasurer) Richard Giegé (SFBBM Chairman) Raymond Négrel (Local Organizing Committee) Philippe Dessen (SFBBM Treasurer) Yves Benhamou (Scientific Secretary) Georges Issler (Organizing Secretary) SCIENTIFIC COMMITTEE Michel Lazdunski, Président (Nice) Sylvain Blanquet (Paris) Joel Bokaert (Montpellier) Pierre Chambon (Strasbourg) Jean-Pierre Changeux (Paris) Hugues Chap (Toulouse) Alain.J Cozzone (Lyon) Claude Hélène (Paris) Daniel Louvard ((Paris) Jacques-Henry Weil (Strasbourg) Moshe Yaniv (Paris) KEY DATES January 31th, 1999 Bursaries February 28th, 1999 Abstracts March 31th, 1999 Reduced registration fee June 1st, 1999 Hotel and tour reservation LANGUAGE The official language of the scientific sessions will be English. FORUM DES JEUNES CHERCHEURS As a sattelite meeting, The XXVIth "Forum des Jeunes Chercheurs" (Forum for Young Investigators) will be organized on Tuesday, June 22. For further informations, please contact : XXVI_FJC@ipmc.cnrs.fr. EXHIBITION During the Meeting, a technical- and book-exhibition will be held. It will be integrated in the poster area. Exhibitors who are interested should write directly to the Secretariat or to the Congress Organizer. FURTHER INFORMATIONS If you are interested in attending the FEBS'99 Meeting, you will find all informations and scientific program on : http://coli.polytechnique.fr/febs99 Meeting Secretariat : Congrès Louis Pasteur - FEBS'99 19 rue du Maréchal Lefèbvre, 67100 Strasbourg (France) Fax : +33 3 88 39 53 18 Chairman of the Organizing Committee : Professor Guy Dirheimer IBMC du CNRS 15, rue René Descartes F-67084 Strasbourg Cedex (France) Fax : +33 3 88 60 22 18 E-mail :Guy.Dirheimer@ibmc.u-strasbg.fr SFBBM Web page : http://coli.polytechnique.fr/sfbbm FEBS Web page : http://www.febs.unibe.ch/ FEBS'99 Web page : http://coli.polytechnique.fr/febs99 From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Fri Dec 04 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!agate!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!maze.dpo.uab.edu!usenet From: Sean Moore Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics Subject: FPLC detector NEEDED Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 17:33:03 -0600 Organization: UAB Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3669C2AF.F0E023DF@micro.microbio.uab.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fenway.microbio.uab.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) We are looking for a fixed wavelength detector (280nm) for our FPLC. If anyone has one that is not being used I would like to begin a negotiation for its purchase. Sean sdmoore@uab.edu From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Fri Dec 04 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!agate!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!duke.telepac.pt!news.telepac.pt!not-for-mail From: "Vitor Cruz" Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.microbiology,bionet.neuroscience Subject: Re: Requesting a Gift Idea Date: 5 Dec 1998 21:57:37 GMT Lines: 32 Message-ID: <01be2099$b8996ba0$d5e741c2@host.telepac.pt> References: <74c7vg$vho$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.65.231.213 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4619 bionet.microbiology:15257 bionet.neuroscience:26262 I once received a Archimedes termometer and loved it. In case you don't know it, its a glass cilinder filled with a liquid in which float some spheres . As the temperature changes, some spheres go up or down, indicating the actual temperature. I've seen cilinders from about 20 to 50 cm, with different colours in the liquid inside. This is usefull and also decorative. Vitor Cruz -- Visit my portuguese water analysis homepage at: http://www.terravista.pt/guincho/2009/index.html mail me to: vitorcruz@mail.telepac.pt harryking@my-dejanews.com escreveu no artigo <74c7vg$vho$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... > > > Does anyone have a good idea for a holliday gift > for someone interested in the sciences? > > --Harry > > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own > From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Fri Dec 04 22:00:00 1998 From: harryking@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.microbiology,bionet.neuroscience Subject: Requesting a Gift Idea Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:18:42 GMT Organization: None Lines: 9 Message-ID: <74c7vg$vho$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.203.100.9 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Dec 05 21:18:42 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.03 [en] (Win95; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x13.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 146.203.100.9 Path: biosci!news.ic.sunysb.edu!news-nysernet-16.sprintlink.net!news-east1.sprintlink.net!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4618 bionet.microbiology:15256 bionet.neuroscience:26261 Does anyone have a good idea for a holliday gift for someone interested in the sciences? --Harry -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Sat Dec 05 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!agate!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!207.155.183.80.MISMATCH!global-news-master From: kkollins@pop3.concentric.net Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.microbiology,bionet.neuroscience Subject: Re: Requesting a Gift Idea Date: 05 Dec 1998 21:38:29 PST Organization: sufficient Lines: 23 Message-ID: <366A17D3.5D0B1DE6@pop3.concentric.net> References: <74c7vg$vho$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Reply-To: kkollins@concentric.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ts001d08.spr-ma.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4622 bionet.microbiology:15260 bionet.neuroscience:26271 harryking@my-dejanews.com wrote: > Does anyone have a good idea for a holliday gift > for someone interested in the sciences? Get 'em a fine-metering valved pipette, a stand for the pipette and a bottle of Johnson's Baby Shampoo. Have 'em mount and fill the pipette with shampoo, and let it stand for as long as it takes for the bubbles to "go away". Then, have 'em get out a glass bowl crank open the pipette's valve just enough to allow a fine, hair-like flow of shampoo run into the bowl. What you'll see is a macroscopic "atom", replete with what appear to be "quantal" events, but which are actually "just" the one, Continuous, flow-dynamic. When they ask, "So what?", tell 'em that you've given them The Future. ken collins [P. S. I think there's still a longer version of "this" discussion over in sci.techniques.xtallography.] ken collins From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Sun Dec 06 22:00:00 1998 From: "clive delmonte" Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.molec-model Subject: DNA Structure: Puzzle Number 8 Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:21:50 -0000 Lines: 42 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.7.227.191 Message-ID: <366be1d1.0@news.netdirect.net.uk> X-Trace: 7 Dec 1998 14:10:25 GMT, 195.7.227.191 Path: biosci!news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!btnet-peer!btnet-feed2!btnet!news-peer.netdirect.net.uk!news.netdirect.net.uk!195.7.227.191 Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4624 bionet.molec-model:2340 Mirzabekov et al. (13) reported their study of the sequence in which nucleosomal histones are brought into contact with DNA wrapped around nucleosomal core proteins. They observed that the first 20 bp of both 5' ends of the DNA are not in close association with any core histones even though the 3' ends, paired with those same 5' ends which are not in any contact, are indeed in close association with parts of histones H2A and H3. How would it be, in a double helix with 2 full turns in the last 20 bp at each end, that only the 3' ends, but not the 5' ends, would lie in close association with core histones ? There is a clue the true side-by-side structure found by Lee et al. (Puzzle 1, ref.1), and found by other STM & AFM workers. If the 5' end of the duplex twists away from the nucleosome surface in order to prepare to make contact with the next nucleosome, then it could be only the 3' end alone which is left in contact with the histones. What other explanation could one suggest ? 13 Primary Organisation of Nucleosome Core Particle of Chromatin: Sequence of Histone Arrangement Along DNA; A.D. Mirzabekov, V.A. Shick, A.V. Belyavsky & S.G. Bavykin; Proc. Nat. Acad. Sci. (USA) Vol 75 (1978) 4184 - 4188 ---------------------------------------------------- Clive Delmonte From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Sun Dec 06 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!agate!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!199.0.65.142!news-feed1.tiac.net!posterchild2!news@tiac.net From: James Larkin Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics Subject: Conference on "Molecular Labels, Signaling & Detection" Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:18:37 -0800 Organization: Cambridge Healthtech Institute Lines: 31 Message-ID: <366C624D.605E@cambridge.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.60.238.8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) Please note the following meeting which may be of interest to you or one of your colleagues: "Advances in Molecular Labels, Signaling & Detection: Enhancing Sensitivity, Accuracy and Speed, to be held at the US Grant Hotel, April 12-13, 1999 in San Diego, California. Session Topics: DNA Detection, Novel Sensor Strategies, Novel Physiological Probes in Living Cells, Novel Labels for Research and Screening. Early Registration (by January 15, 1999) Commercial =$795 Academic =$395 Advance Deadline (by February 26, 1999) Commercial =$895 Academic =$445 On-site or Late Registration Commercial =$995 Academic =$470 Abstract Deadline = February 26, 1999 For more information please contact: Cambridge Healthtech Institute 1037 Chestnut St. Newton Upper Falls, MA 02464 PH: 617-630-1356 - FAX: 617-630-1325 - EMAIL: chi@healthtech.com WEB: www.healthtech.com From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Sun Dec 06 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.52.4.10!news-stl.cp.verio.net!news.cc.ukans.edu!not-for-mail From: Gerthory Toussaint Newsgroups: comp.ai.neural-nets,sci.cognitive,sci.nonlinear,bionet.neuroscience,comp.robotics.research,comp.robotics.misc,bionet.biophysics Subject: [ANNOUNCE][URGENT] PhD Position in Norway Followup-To: comp.robotics.research Date: 7 Dec 1998 16:54:48 GMT Organization: IDI/Gløshaugen, NTNU Lines: 57 Approved: shigeoka@ukans.edu, crr@robot.ireq.ca Message-ID: <74h18o$t3t$4@news.cc.ukans.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: robin.me.ukans.edu Xref: biosci bionet.neuroscience:26317 bionet.biophysics:4625 Dr.scient.-position: Neuro-models of development and learning of movement behavior Candidate background: B.Sc./M.Sc. in computer science, preferably experienced with neural network models and with extra knowledge in movement science, neuroscience (anatomy/physiology) or behavioral sciences. Project: The candidate will join a group of computer scientists, psychologists, movement scientists and philosophers working on unsupervised development and learning of behavior. The experimental paradigm includes three elements: 1) Models/simulations of body (skeletons/muscles) and environment: http://www.radata.demon.co.uk/ 2) Interactive, closed-environment-loop connectionist models (neural networks) and computer simulations. 3) Hebbian learning rules (unsupervised learning) The candidate is expected to work towards a dr.scient.-degree at our Department. Practical stuff: The stipend is for 4 years, paying approximately $30.000 pr. year (minus ca. 30% tax; but health care will cost you nothing :-) Spread over the 4 years, a 25% effort as teaching assistant is expected. Work place: Department of Computer and Information Sciences The Norwegian University of Science and Technology Trondheim, Norway http://www.ntnu.no/indexe.html Trondheim hosts many foreign students and people speak english, but the candidate is expected to join norwegian courses offered by the university. Application deadline: December 31. 1998 If you are interested or have spesific questions, please send an email to: jorn.hokland@idi.ntnu.no where you include some information on your background, grades, and research interest. ----- Jorn Hokland, dr.scient. Associate Professor Dept. of Computer and Information Sciences The Norwegian University of Science and Technology ******* Crossposted: comp.robotics.research (moderated) ******* Summary: Academic, government & industry research in robotics. Archives and information: http://www.metamech.com/crr Charter: ftp://ftp.robot.ireq.ca/pub/crr/Charter Meta-discussions/information: crr-request@robot.ireq.ca From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Mon Dec 07 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!netnews.com!news.idt.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: josephpol@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.microbiology,bionet.neuroscience Subject: Re: Science Holliday Gift Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:04:36 GMT Organization: None Lines: 12 Message-ID: <74jf62$tja$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.203.100.8 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Dec 08 15:04:36 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.03 [en] (Win95; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x12.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 146.203.100.8 Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4628 bionet.microbiology:15281 bionet.neuroscience:26342 On 12/5/98, Harry wrote >Does anyone have a good idea for a holliday gift >for someone interested in the sciences? The book The Bible According to Einstein makes a great gift for someone interested in science. It is available from amazon.com at http://www.amazon.com --Joseph -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Mon Dec 07 22:00:00 1998 From: "clive delmonte" Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.molec-model,bionet.xtallography Subject: DNA Structure: Puzzle Number 9 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:56:13 -0000 Lines: 78 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.7.227.182 Message-ID: <366ce70c.0@news.netdirect.net.uk> X-Trace: 8 Dec 1998 08:45:00 GMT, 195.7.227.182 Path: biosci!news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!btnet-peer!btnet!news.freedom2surf.net!peer.news.nildram.co.uk!news-peer.netdirect.net.uk!news.netdirect.net.uk!195.7.227.182 Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4627 bionet.molec-model:2341 bionet.xtallography:4509 Suwalski & Traub (14) studied a fibre of the DNA-polyarginine complex by X-ray diffraction. Their diffraction pattern shows "pronounced streaks" in a hexagonal lattice of side 4.15nm and they remarked that the equatorial reflections followed h x h + h x k + k x k = 3n. This pattern of equatorial presences is equivalent to that of Fuller et al. (Puzzle Number 4, ref.6) where such presences follow h-k=3n in a cell whose side can be reduced. Squaring (h-k) and subtracting from the expression in the previous paragraph, there is a differerence of 3hk, a quantity always divisible by 3. Therefore Suwalski & Traub's value of 'a' can reduced by root 3. Suwalski and Traub decided that their pattern of systematic absence could be explained by postulating axial translations of the molecules equal to c/3. Marvin et al. (Puzzle Number 4, ref. 5) considered that a random axial translation of their molecules of c/2 would account for the streaks on their layer lines. Now, the very same diffraction pattern of Suwalski and Traub with DNA-polyarginine was reindexed on an orthogonal net by Fita et al. (15) in a unit cell of approximate section 2.6nm x 3.6 nm (16) where equatorial reflections followed h+k=2n. Langridge et al. (Puzzle Number 4, ref. 7) have shown that this pattern of presences would allow the halving of the long side of the cell section. Fita et al. considered that the pattern of systematic absences in their orthogonal net indicated that the axial translation of the molecules was c/4. So Suwalski & Traub considered that the fibre had axial displacements of the molecules of c/3 in a hexagonal net, and Fita et al. found the axial displacement to be c/4 in an orthogonal net. But there was only one single fibre and only one diffraction pattern. Therefore, whether a hexagonal or orthogonal array is chosen, the axial dispacement can only have one value. The value common to both analyses is c/2, but this is deducible from the layer line streaks and not from the patterns of systematic absence. Therefore the patterns of systematic absence in both the hexagonal and orthogonal nets should be taken to show that, for both indexing schemes, a smaller unit cell is the right choice, with a random axial displacement of c/2. However, if the unit cell sizes are reduced accordingly, the double helix can no longer be fitted into the reduced dimensions of the original cells. As we have seen in the earlier Puzzles, a true side-by-side duplex, where each helix has a diameter of about 1.3nm, and, in this case, has its grooves at least partially filled with poly-arginine, will fit the new, reduced unit cells. 14 A Comparative X-ray Study of a Nucleoprotamine & DNA Complexes with Polylysine & Polyarginine; M. Suwalski & W. Traub; Biopol. Vol 11 (1972) 2223 - 2231 15 X-ray Diffraction Study of DNA Complexes with Arginine Peptides and Their Relation to Nucleoprotamine Structure; I. Fita, J.L. Campos, L.C. Puigjaner & J.A. Subirana; J Mol Biol Vol 167 (1983) 157 - 177 16 X-ray Diffraction Studies of Nucleoprotamine Structure; P. Suau & J.A. Subirana; J Mol Biol Vol 117 (1977) 909 - 926 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Clive Delmonte From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Tue Dec 08 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!YAHOO.COM!k_farbod From: k_farbod@YAHOO.COM ("S.Kayvan Farbod") Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics Subject: subscribe Date: 9 Dec 1998 02:55:17 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 6 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <19981209105513.20482.rocketmail@send203.yahoomail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net subscribe _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Wed Dec 09 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!AOL.COM!Gangst2219 From: Gangst2219@AOL.COM Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics Subject: Publishing Company For Sale Date: 9 Dec 1998 23:42:59 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 222 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net See information about Free Credit Application Below! My Multi-Million Dollar Publishing Company ONLY $149 Free Pre-Approved Merchant Account Application with Order!! To Start Your Business Out Right!! If you ever wanted "the easy way out" to make a lot of money with a business of your own.... Here is the EASIEST WAY TO START! I'm writing this letter to let you in on something that'll blow you away. What I'm about to present is something I've never done before...something that I'll never do again.... So PAY ATTENTION! For the past few years...I've have been running ads in newspapers & magazines, by direct mail, and throughout the internet. These ads were always small and very cheap... On these ads, we have been selling little manuals. These manuals have sold for anywhere between $10 to $99 each. We always ran different ads for each manual we were selling. I like selling information because NOBODY can put a price on it...ESPECIALLY when it is your own...The Sky is the Limit! Plus it is very cheap to reproduce How-To manuals. It costs between 40 cents and $3 to print the entire print manuals and around 35 cents to copy the manuals on disk. AND you can sell them for up to $99 each. That is one hell of a markup! These manuals tell you how to get a car with no money down and no credit...another one tells you how to avoid taxes by depositing income offshore...now you may not be interested in saving money by going offshore...but believe me....there are MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO DO...and they are willing to pay me to teach them!!! Well this is where the unbelievable offer comes in...I hope you are sitting down for this one...because this is a once in a lifetime chance for you. I do not know of an easier way to become financially independent...In fact THERE IS NO EASIER WAY!!! The next few paragraphs will reveal everything to you. I am willing to sell you my entire informational product line with FULL REPRINT RIGHTS and complete step-by-step instructions on how to start your mail order information business with very little money. Remember, these are PROVEN WINNERS. If you are stumped on something to sell or if you are having trouble writing a good ad, I have also included an entire book on disk to help you produce KILLER ads! This entire package which I call a Publishing Company in a Box will come on 1 CD containing over 2000 'Hot-Selling' Books, Reports And Manuals ready to print and sell, Sell, SELL! It also will come with a signed letter giving YOU FULL REPRINT RIGHTS allowing you to sell them for as much as you want and however you want. You Can even sell the entire kit to someone else to resale on their own! You also receive copies of KILLER ads which can fill your mailbox with cash! I am not even going to ask you for any of the money either... What you make is yours to keep . In fact...you get to make a ton of money on these manuals for as long as you wish...and you will never have to pay me another red cent in royalties! I am even going to print out and prepare our #1 selling report which contains the secrets of obtaining credit without a credit check and producing an offshore income without taxes so that you will be able to take it down to your local copy shop and be ready to sell it the same day you have received it. Watch out though - one individual is making $70,000 a month on this report alone! (Why - Because you can include a FREE offshore credit application for those with bad or no credit with this report and explode your mailbox with orders) Note: THIS APPLICATION IS INCLUDED! All I ask for is...$149 and I will include FREE Priority Mail Shipping! Yes, I said $149. There are no zeros missing. Plus if you order before Dec. 16th I will include 4 extra special bonuses... Bonus #1 - "Search Engine Magic" on disk. This report will shoot your web site up to the top of the search engine listings. Other web advertisers are selling this manual for $99 by itself - But I will give it to you for FREE with this package. Bonus #2 - The report "How to Make at least $1,600 a week online...Starting Now!" which is taking the internet by storm will be included absolutely FREE! Bonus #3 - I will include special details about a secret source for direct mail leads that can produce cash orders along with out KILLER ads. And another source will be given which allows you to advertise nationwide through newspapers to 70,000,000 readers for as low as 7 cents per word. Bonus #4 - I also will include a pre-approved application for a merchant account for your business benefit. Taking credit cards will increase your business up to 100%. The normal $195 application fee will be waved with this pre-approved application. But there is one drawback... I am sending this ad to 10,000 other people...and I will only allow 50 kits to be sold. It wouldn't make much sense if I sold this kit to 1,000 or 2,000 people...The market would be saturated with these same manuals... and I don't want to do that. To make sure that the people in this offer get the same results I have...ONLY 50 people can have it for $149.00! Chances are, I will get all 50 within a week's time. So if this is something you are interested in...RUSH me a check or money order for $149.00 TODAY to insure your future business. But, even if you decide to pass this up...Don't sweat it. It's not like I am going to be mad or anything like that. I know I will get my 50 order limit really fast. And anyone who gets their check into me late... I will simply send it back. For only $149.00, I am going to let you have the easiest money you will ever make. The manuals are written, the ads are presented, the advertising plan is laid out, and all you have to do is print them out for pennies and place the ads. Do it today! Rush me your payment of $149.00 right now...and get your very own MILLION DOLLAR publishing company going! You can start with one or two manuals...even the day you receive the package...and then expand to include ALL of them! For $149.00, you have everything you need to make a killing with your very own business. If you want to make real money - then this offer is for you! "I took the report "Search Engine Magic" and sold over 50 copies on disk within 2 weeks! They sold for $99 and I was able to copy them for under 50 cents each. Wait till I start marketing the other products included in this line!!!" Joe Fisher - Internet Marketer To rush order this "MILLION DOLLAR Publishing Company in a Box" simply fill out the order form below and fax it to our 24 hour order line at: FAX ORDER LINE: 1 (212) 504-8032 Regular Mail to: Financial Systems P.O. Box 301 Orange, Ma 01364 ORDER FORM -------------------------------------------------------------- Please send to: Your Name__________________________________________ Your Address________________________________________ Your City____________________________________________ State / Zip___________________________________________ Phone #: ____________________________________________ (For problems with your order only. No salesmen will call.) Email Address_______________________________________ We Accept Checks or Money Orders along with all Major Credit Cards including Visa, MasterCard and American Express. (NOTE - We only ship to the address listed on the credit card) (Please Fill Out Below Section and Make sure that the above name and address are listed as it appears on the card) for $149.00 Credit Card Number:__________________________________ Expiration Date:______________________________ Signature:____________________________ Date:_______________________ [ ] YES! Please rush my Publishing Company in a Box. I understand I have FULL REPRINT Rights and can sell any of the items for whatever price I desire, even the entire kit. [ ] DOUBLE YES! I am ordering by Dec. 16th! Please include the extra special bonuses! * Please check one of the following payment options: [ ] I am faxing a check (Do not send original, we will make a draft from the faxed check) [ ] I am faxing my credit card number. (Note your card will be charged for $149.00 and we only ship to the address on the card) [ ] I am enclosing a check or money order for $149.00! Note - If ordering outside continental US, please add $5 to S&H P.S. Don't forget you will receive 2,000 Manuals, Books, and Reports (Some of which are up to 200 pages each)...all for $149...You have full reprint and resale rights to make as much money as you want without ever paying any royalties whatsoever! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * You have been carefully selected to receive the following as a person obviously interested in this subject based upon your previous internet postings, or visits to one of our affiliate web sites. If you have received this message in error, reply with the word unsubscribe in the subject. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Wed Dec 09 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!INKA.MSSM.EDU!vanamee From: vanamee@INKA.MSSM.EDU (Eva Scheuring Vanamee) Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics Subject: atomic absorptiopn analysis Date: 10 Dec 1998 13:39:01 -0800 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 9 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Hi Everyone, I am looking for a lab which does atomic absorption analysis of protein samples routinely for a fee. Thank you for your help! Eva Scheuring Vanamee vanamee@inka.mssm.edu From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Thu Dec 10 22:00:00 1998 From: "clive delmonte" Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics Subject: DNA Structure:Puzzle Number 10 Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:07:54 -0000 Lines: 40 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.7.225.242 Message-ID: <367128e1.0@news.netdirect.net.uk> X-Trace: 11 Dec 1998 14:14:57 GMT, 195.7.225.242 Path: biosci!agate!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!btnet-peer!btnet-feed2!btnet!news-peer.netdirect.net.uk!news.netdirect.net.uk!195.7.225.242 Lohr et al. (17) equilibrated histone cores onto DNA, cleaved the complexes with deoxyribonuclease 1 and resolved the resulting fragments of DNA up to a maximum of some 300 bp. They reported that: "Since the average size of the nucleosomal repeat in yeast is 160 bp...the presence of discrete, regularly spaced bands between 160 and 300 bases shows that ... there is structural regularity extending over regions much larger than one nucleosomal repeat unit. Even when digestion produces fragments so large that they must have arisen from cleavages within two different nucleosomes, the fragments are still of discrete sizes, spaced at intervals of 10 bases.....The extended ladder is extremely clear and background free." How would deoxyribonuclease 1, cleaving a cylindrically symmetrical double helical DNA within both the linker regions and within the nucleosomal core DNA, always produce fragments related as multiples of 10 bp, in an extended ladder which is extremely clear and free of fragments of any intermediate differences in length ? The true side-by-side duplex DNA found by Lee et al. (Puzzle 1, ref. 1) is not cylindrically symmetrical, but the stacked base pairs are only accessible from one face of the duplex. Cleavage with deoxyribonuclease 1 can only take place in a regular manner producing fragments which are integer multiples of the pitch. Intermediate lengths and cutting at a range of azimuthal angles is not possible with the true side-by-side of Lee et al. 17 On the Occurrence of Nucleosome Phasing in Chromatin; D. Lohr, K. Tatchell & K.E. van Holde; Cell Vol 12 (1977) 829 - 836 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Clive Delmonte From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Fri Dec 11 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!agate!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!nntp.giganews.com!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail From: Ernie Maynard Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics Subject: Kinetics and allosteric interaction Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:27:03 -0600 Organization: Texas A&M University Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3672DFA7.E93@mail.chem.tamu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: burgess7.chem.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 1998 21:25:10 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) Is there a good enzyme kinetics news group out there??? I am interseted in allosteric interactions between proteins and the kinetics describing such systems. -- Ernie Maynard Graduate Student Department of Chemistry Texas A&M University Phone: 409-845-4724 Fax: 409-845-4719 From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Fri Dec 11 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!news.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!naturesway.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: "Andrews K Fletcher" Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.microbiology,bionet.neuroscience Subject: Re: The truth is out there Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 22:15:49 -0000 Message-ID: <913500941.7312.0.nnrp-04.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> References: <73sh3s$1n2$2@news.tamu.edu> <912381406.6676.0.nnrp-04.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> <73t7tt$9kr$2@news.tamu.edu> <36635D8D.46F680BA@pop3.concentric.net> <740246$k24$1@news.tamu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: naturesway.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: naturesway.demon.co.uk:212.228.66.3 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 913500941 nnrp-04:7312 NO-IDENT naturesway.demon.co.uk:212.228.66.3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Lines: 443 Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4637 bionet.microbiology:15320 bionet.neuroscience:26475 'A new scientific truth is not usually presented in a way to convince its opponents. Rather, they die off, and a rising generation is familiarised with the truth from the start.' Max Planck ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- HTML COPY available which shows animated working models. If you would like a copy, send me an email with your address details and contact information and a brief note relating to your background and interest in this subject. If I receive a lot of requests for this file, I will consider publishing it on my web page. But would rather know who wants it and why. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- The following review came from a letter I wrote to professor H T Hammel, who is a powerful member of the Max Planck Institute. INDIANA UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDIICINE date September 6/ 1995 Dear Mr Fletcher: I received the information you sent me regarding your ideas about fluid transport in trees, in tubing and in the vascular system in humans. I will study your ideas and comment upon them as soon as possible. A Quick scan of your Brixham experiment prompts me to ask if you conducted this experiment with boiled water without any solute added to the tubing on either side of the central point which you raise 24 meters? I expect that you could raise the tubing to the same height with or without solute in the water. In any case , your experiment confirms that clean water (water that is unbroken water, water that is without a single minute bubble of vapour) can support tension of several hundreds of atmospheres. The record tension obtained experimentally is 270 atmospheres. At 10 degrees C. (c.f. Briggs, L. Limiting negative pressure of water. Journal of Applied Physics 21: 721-722 1950). I expect even this tension at brake point can be exceeded by careful cleansing of the water, to remove even the most minute region of gas phase. When the water is already broken, as occurs when gas is entrapped on particulate matter in ordinary water, the water will expand around even a single break when tension (negative Pressure) is applied to the water. When you boil the water, prior to applying (2.4-1) ATM negative pressure to the water in the highest point of the tubing, you eliminate some of these breaks in ordinary water. I expect that dissolving NaCl or other solutes in the water will have little or no effect on the way you measure the tensile strength of water. I am enclosing some reprints that may interest you. Some of these deal with negative pressures we have measured in tall trees, mangroves and desert shrubs. Other reprints deal with how solutes alter water in aqueous solutions and how colloidal solutes (proteins) affect the flux of protein free fluid between plasma in capillaries and interstitial fluid. Sincerely H.T. Hammel Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Physiology and Biophysics, Indiana University. Emeritus Professor of Physiology, University of California, San Diego. Foreign Scientific Member Max-Planck-Institut fur physiologische und Klinische, Forschung. cc: Professor Michel Cabanac, Laval University, Quebec ------------------------------------------- New Theory for Fluid Transport ------------------------------------------- Introduction: All life on earth developed with one thing in common; Earth! The constant forces are gravity, and the energy from the sun. The most abundant resources are minerals and water. Plants and animals alike, all depend on the properties of water for transporting minerals and nutrients. Because life is based on water, in that everything alive started from a few drops, life must have evolved by finding the easiest and most direct pathway, after all liquids are very good at finding the most direct route possible. Yet, at first glance, everywhere one looks life appears to have chosen the least likely of paths, if it is trying to overcome the effects of gravity. Would trees, with species like the giant Californian redwoods (sequoia sempervirens), towering over a hundred metres high have chosen a vertical direction? How then have plants and animals harnessed the constant pull of gravity in order to thrive and grow? On a summer day a large oak tree may take up a hundred gallons of water or more, enriched with minerals and nutrients from the soil. At first glance it is doing so against the pull of gravity, producing flow rates, which cannot be explained or shown by working models based on osmosis, capillary action or root pressure. So how are trees doing it? ----------------- Explanation ----------------- Over 95% of the waters drawn in at the roots of a tree evaporate into the surrounding air through the leaves by transpiration. The evaporated moisture contains no minerals. However, the water remaining inside the tree contains a variety of mineral salts dissolved from the soil, together with sugars produced by the tree. The transpired water results in a concentration of salts and sugars within the leaves. Concentrating a liquid, (sap), which contains substances that are heavier than water, must result in the production of a heavier solution than the pre-transpired liquid. Because of the resulting imbalance in density the heavier solution is drawn towards the base of the tree, due to the effect of gravity (maple syrup, latex and amber are evidence for this). Downward flowing sap occurs predominantly within the phloem vessels. When an excess of concentrated liquid is produced during favourable weather conditions, the downward flowing sap forms new tubes from the cambium, as it is forced down by gravity, in a continual cycle of growth. In hard woods, sap flows from cell to cell through openings or perforations, in the membrane between abutting vessels. In soft-woods, the sap flow controls movable valves, or pits - (thin areas), in the walls of conducting tracheids. Concentrated pulses of sap may eventually be found to be present in some xylem vessels, as gravity inevitably finds the most direct route, with the least resistance, to the ground. But for every action there must always be a reaction, and the reaction in this case is that the downward flowing liquid behaves exactly like a plunger in a syringe. As it flows down it causes the entire contents of connected tubes filled with the less dense liquid to be drawn up. Here we have a simple power source, which is driven purely by evaporation, posture and gravity. The forces produced by this phenomenon are easy to demonstrate in simple tubular experiments. The main forces are produced at the head and tail of the falling solutions. The head produces a positive force, or pressure, and the tail produces a negative pressure. I believe that the positive force within the mineral laden sap is responsible for the formation of the tubular structures found in timber. The positive force prevents tubes from closing. As more sap flows through the same pathways, some of the sap is used to strengthen the tubes which will eventually become strong enough to resist the negative pressures. The tree transports the dilute solution of water and minerals to the leaves using these tubes. Thereafter becoming what we call the xylem vessels. As the concentrated liquid falls towards the ground, minerals are locked away as timber, while the mineral laden liquid arriving at the roots is inevitably re-diluted by the dilute solution drawn from the soil. The imbalance in the liquid is corrected as it becomes lighter or less dense than the downward flowing sap and begins its journey back to the leaves, where the process continues, providing the tree with a constant supply of water and nutrients. In the autumn / fall, when the leaves have fallen, the circulation is altered as a greater positive pressure is exerted towards the roots, because transpiration has ceased and therefore fluids flowing towards the top of the tree would be compromised. At this time of the year root growth would be most productive. As fluid channels begin to offer resistance, the sap must find alternative routes. The new directions may be vertical or horizontal, but always in the path of least resistance. Eventually tubes become redundant and new tubes are formed. Fluids of different specific gravity have been observed to flow in both directions, simultaneously while in the same tube. In fact this 'transpiring gravitational flow system' is able to operate without tubes and has been attributed to causing the oceans to circulate (Atlantic conveyor system). ----------------------------------------- Early attempts at lifting water: ----------------------------------------- The story goes that the reigning Grand Duke of Tuscany had ordered a well to be dug to supply the ducal palace with water. The workmen came upon water at a depth of 40 feet, and the next step was to pump it up. A vacuum lift pump was erected over the well, and a pipe let down to the water, but the water was found to rise to a height of 33 feet and no more, in spite of the most careful overhauling of the pump mechanism. It was at this stage that Galileo was consulted. While the famous philosopher was unable to offer a solution, he at least indicated the problem. Here above the 33 feet of water was seven feet of vacuum. The limit for raising water by suction in a tube appeared to be thirty-three feet. Why should there be this limit when trees are observed to ignore it? By introducing a loop of tubing, instead of a single tube, to simulate the internal structure of plants and trees, and suspending it by the centre, the problem of raising water above the 33 feet limit is solved! The reason a loop of tubing succeeds where a single tube fails is because the cohesive bond of water molecules is far stronger than the adhesive qualities of water observed in Galileo's lift-pump problem. Using a loop of tubing enables water molecules to bond to each other in an unbroken chain. It helps to picture the unbroken loop of water as a cord instead of a liquid, supported by a pulley in the centre with tension applied to both ends. The columns of water held in both sides of the tube exert a downward force due to the weight of the water contained in the tube. This force causes the water molecules in the tube to be stretched, causing the water to behave like an elastic band. In order to demonstrate this affect on water molecules I repeated the experiment shown in figure 1 without the added saline solution, the two open ends of the tube at ground level were removed from the demijohns, exposing them to the air. Though the tube contained water, it did not flow from either side of the tube. In fact the opposite effect was observed; the water level in both sides of the tube immediately rose to a new level about half a metre from the ends of the tube. Even more surprising the water columns stayed there suspended by the cohesion between the water molecules. In order to try to upset the balance I then blew up one side of the tube, causing the water level on that side to rise. I then released the pressure and the water returned to the same equal level. This observation offers an exciting explanation to the problem of explaining why water does not pour from the wound when a tree is felled. However, the present laws of physics state that water cannot exist in its liquid form below 4.6 torr, yet the water remains in the tube. Only when the tube is lowered, or if a bubble appears at the top of the loop of tubing does the water flow out from the open ends. ----------------------------------------------------- THE BRIXHAM CLIFF EXPERIMENT ----------------------------------------------------- This experiment successfully demonstrated fluid transport to a height, which exceeds the current accepted limit of 10 metres and how this applies to the way that trees draw water to their leaves. APPARATUS 48 metre single length of clear nylon tubing, 6.35 mm inside diameter x 9.5 mm outside diameter (type used to draw ales in the brewery trade), two clear glass demijohns, a large tray, 50 mils of concentrated salt solution with added red food dye, 50ml syringe minus the needle, sufficient degassed or previously boiled and cooled water to fill the tubing, the demijohns, and for adequate top ups. Adequate nylon cord to hoist the tubing and pulley to the desired height, a small pulley and adhesive cello-tape. METHOD The two demijohns were filled to the brim with the water and placed in a suitable tray to catch any displaced water. The length of tubing was half filled with the water by siphoning. This was achieved by submerging one end of the tube in the water filled demijohn placed on a table. When the water reached the centre of the loop, the open end of the tube was capped with a thumb. The end of the tube in the demijohn was removed and the 50 mils of coloured salt water was introduced via the large syringe. The demijohn was then re-filled to the brim and the tube was re-submerged, making sure that no bubbles were introduced by adjusting the height of the unfilled side of the tube. By removing the thumb, the remaining length of tube was filled and again capped, making sure that no air was trapped inside the tube. At this point the demijohns were, refilled. The capped end of the tube was then inserted into the other water filled demijohn and both ends secured at an equal level, with cello-tape, again making sure that no air was allowed to enter the tube. A length of the nylon cord equal to that of the length of tubing used was passed through the pulley, provided a safe ground level means to hoist the loop of tubing to the desired height. The pulley and the main nylon cord was hoisted to the desired height and secured at the top of the cliff on a separate length of cord. Adhesive cello-tape was wrapped heavily around the two sides of the loop of tubing 15cm from its centre to secure one knotted end of the main nylon cord, which ran through the pulley for the purpose of lifting the tube, taking care not to reduce the tubes diameter. The cello-tape was used to bind the cord to the tube. Coloured insulation tape was used to secure both sides of the tube together providing an excellent ascent measurement when placed at one-metre intervals. The centre of the tube was then gently hoisted, taking care to keep the ascent as smooth as possible. As the tube was raised the salt solution began to fall, due to the influence of gravity; this caused one of the demijohns to start overflowing indicating a positive pressure, while the second demijohn began to lose water at the same rate indicating a negative pressure. The emptying demijohn received frequent top ups, until the salt solution arrived at the overflowing demijohn and the flow stopped. CONCLUSION The fifty mils of salt solution caused the water in the tubes to circulate. The amount of water displaced and collected in the tray represents approximately the volume of water held in one side of the tube. Which meant that the fifty mils of salt solution had lifted water from one demijohn to the height of 24 metres and caused water many times its own weight and volume to rise. (I have used as little as 10 mils of coloured salt solution in the same experiment with a slower rate of decent but with similar displacements of water). Initially the experiments were tested at lower levels of elevation. 24 metres vertical lift was achieved when demonstrating the phenomenon before an audience of journalists and Forestry Commission scientists at the Overgang cliff, Brixham, July 1995. BENCH DEMONSTRATION For the purpose of demonstrating this phenomenon use a scaled down two metre high version of Fig 1. Substituting the demijohns for small narrow necked bottles. The type of tubing used to oxygenate aquariums is ideal for this purpose. A two-mil syringe minus needle, filled with coloured salt solution, connected to a T piece via a short length of tube, may be added close to the centre of the elevated tube to introduce salt solution intermittently while the tube is elevated, providing multiple demonstrations. Furthermore, the tube used in the salt free side of the experiment, (return side), may be of a larger bore size. Soft wall, silicon tubing shows visible signs of distortion when the saline solution is allowed to flow through it. The side containing the saline solution expands while the other side contracts, again indicating the presence of both positive and negative, pressures. The experiments shown have been repeated using a variety of substitutes for salt solution, such as strong tea solution, fruit juices and milk etc. in order to relate directly to plants and animals. The flow rates achieved using different solutions, produced different rates of flow. Umbrella Plant Experiment, (cyperus ) In order to demonstrate that liquids of higher concentrations move through plants in relation to the constant pull of gravity. Take a freshly cut stem about 15cm long, with leaves intact, from an umbrella plant. Place the cutting upside down, in a glass container of water. After several weeks the umbrella plant starts to grow roots from what was the top of the plant and new stems are produced, as the shoots grow vertically in the normal way. The liquid processes involved within the plant for both root and leaf production, must have travelled from one end of the cut stem to the other. Indicating that gravity has an important influence. When relating back to trees, the negative pressure, observed in the demijohn with the falling water level, provides us with a clear understanding of the mechanisms involved in drawing water through the roots from the soil. The positive pressures caused by the weight of the column of water held in the tree, plus the additional influence of gravity acting on the concentrated solutions, induced by the loss of moisture at the leaf, provides the roots with sufficient power to penetrate the earth. ROOT PRESSURE Explanation for fluid exuding from a cut stem. To demonstrate this effect, fill a vertically held open ended u tube with water, Fig 2A, and add a little coloured concentrated salt solution to one side, Fig 2B, the level of the salt solution will drop causing the opposite side to overflow. Imagine the loop of tubing is one of many tubes in the stem of a freshly cut plant or tree with roots in the soil. The overflowing water represents the xylem sap rising under the influence of the positive pressure, generated by gravity acting upon the concentrated sap in the phloem tube. This is an important observation that gives a clear understanding of why plants and trees continue to grow upwards. Little or no cross contamination takes place between liquids in the clean-water-side and the coloured saline side of the tube. Fig 2 C, I have left this experiment suspended for five days and it appears to remain stable. Circulation within an enclosed system, Fig 3, eliminates siphon as an explanation, demonstrating that flow occurs inside and would continue to do so if the tube was pressurised. The thin columns of water in trees are known to brake, making a cracking sound through a stethoscope. Cavitation occurs immediately the bead of water separates. The formation of gas at the uppermost part of the raised loop of tubing, Fig 1, caused both columns of water to fall towards the ground and form a new level of 33 feet. The space above the water columns is a vacuum. The circulation in trees continues, despite continuous cavitations, which means that they are able to refill or repair the vacuum. The internal part of a tree is a network of veins, or tubes, most of which run vertically. However some tubes run at an angle and some horizontally and provide links to other tubes, which interconnect at random levels. The internal tubular parts of the tree are themselves captivated inside a large tube, which is of course the bark or outer skin. Water columns within the internal tubes of a tree, are continually stressed under a negative pressure, caused by downward flowing concentrated solutions within the trunk and branches. Cavitation occurs because the long thin columns of water are pulled apart. Immediately the cavitation forms, the internal pressures of that tube switch from a negative pressure to a positive pressure, forcing the more dilute solution in the opposing side of adjoined tubes upwards, Fig 2.B. & Fig 2 C. The downward force causes an increase in the head of water at the top of the tube. It is this increase in the head of water that gives a tree both momentum and direction to follow in its cyclical growth. Furthermore an increase in the positive pressure above the cavitation refills and repairs the vacuum, therefore enabling the tree to continue with water transport, and allowing gas bubbles to percolate upwards and out through the leaves. This ability of the tree to switch from positive pressure to negative pressure and visa-versa gives us an understanding of the pressures observed in the roots of the tree. The roots being able to drive down through the earth under a positive pressure and expanding forces yet are still able to suck in water under a negative pressure. Safety * Students conducting any overhead experiments must observe the same Hard Hat safety regulations imposed on building workers. * Experiments involving tube elevations higher than classroom levels should always be supervised. The safest area for this kind of experiment to take place is on a spiral staircase. Cliff top experiments are dangerous. * A nylon line passed through a small pulley block, which has been secured at the desired height, enables the loop of tube to be elevated safely from ground level. * Boiling water is dangerous and should not be handled or moved until it has cooled sufficiently enough to prevent scalding. END A simple thought experiment This thought experiment is designed to clarify the direction and momentum of fluids as they are pulled and pushed through the body by the magnetic or attractive force of gravity. Red represents both high levels of oxygen and concentrated solutions caused by the loss of moisture during the evaporative processes which occur in bodily functions. The alterations in specific gravity which occur in the fluids close to the surface lining of the lungs, respiratory tract and skin, could well be responsible for providing the dissolved oxygen, which we require, with sufficient force to enter the circulatory system. Blue represents both low oxygen and a reduction in specific gravity, due to the loss of spent salts in the excreted urine, which is shown as yellow in the drawing. The increase in more dilute fluids from the stomach and intestines, is also anaerobic (containing no oxygen) producing methane as a by-product. Therefore the liquids entering the system from our diet would contain no oxygen, which would undoubtedly cause any blood which passes through to show a significant reduction in oxygen. Now apply the principles of pressures generated by the tiny pulses of concentrated solutions as they travel through the various tubes of the thought diagram. Personally I find that this simple drawing helps to keep my mind focused sharply on the holistic processes involved in all living things, be they plants or people. Strangely enough there is a similar drawing in most physiology books, which shows the direction of the circulatory system. Judge for yourself by looking at both drawings which way the fluid's flow and how they are driven. As I have said earlier the only way to gain a good understanding of science is to form your own opinions, based on all the evidence you can lay your hands on. If for instance you see an experiment in a paper or a textbook, including this one, providing the experiment is not going to cost you a fortune, set it up. But then you must also try to find an alternative explanation for the processes that you witness. Urine for instance was used to determine whether fluid transport could be taking place in humans and animals, In a similar process. For example respiration causes water to evaporate from the lungs and respiratory tract. Fluids remaining in the body contain minerals and must therefore be concentrated. Gravity causes the heavy solution to be drawn back through the lining of the lungs and respiratory tract and down through the vessels in the body, carrying dissolved oxygen with it. Concentrated solutions arrive at the bladder via the kidneys where they are excreted in the urine. However the kidneys are not 100% efficient and some minerals arrive in the lowest anatomical extremities, solidifying as finger and toenails or horses hooves etc. Clippings of which sink when dropped into water. Andrew K Fletcher Page 1 15/04/98 Summer Haze, 26 Berry Drive, Paignton, Devon, TQ3 3QW, UK. Dr David Cutler of The Jodrel Laboratory at Kew Gardens is curently helping me to write a paper on this subject in a way that it might be published in a journal. I could sure use some more help and would appreciate offers of publicity. From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Sat Dec 12 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!Supernews73!supernews.com!news.he.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!207.155.183.80.MISMATCH!global-news-master From: kkollins@pop3.concentric.net Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.microbiology,bionet.neuroscience Subject: Re: The truth is out there Date: 12 Dec 1998 20:16:21 PST Organization: sufficient Lines: 12 Message-ID: <36733F0D.5BA589C9@pop3.concentric.net> References: <73sh3s$1n2$2@news.tamu.edu> <912381406.6676.0.nnrp-04.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> <73t7tt$9kr$2@news.tamu.edu> <36635D8D.46F680BA@pop3.concentric.net> <740246$k24$1@news.tamu.edu> <913500941.7312.0.nnrp-04.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: kkollins@concentric.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ts002d05.spr-ma.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4638 bionet.microbiology:15321 bionet.neuroscience:26484 Good for you, Andrew, the integration inherent in your Theory is Quite-Nice. You can Verify your position be-cause, if it's Correct, the "tube"-construction must be graded over the length of the tubes (greatest where the tube is oldest, least where the tube is newest.) a carefully cross-sectioned tree, a microscope, and the Will to do what'll be a lengthy cross-correlation process are all you need. I enjoyed reading your work. Cheers, Ken Collins Andrews K Fletcher wrote: [his Interesting Theoretical Position re. water flow in trees] From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Sat Dec 12 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kodak.com!news-nysernet-16.sprintlink.net!news-in-east1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.globix.net!news.idt.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!naturesway.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: "Andrews K Fletcher" Newsgroups: alt.journalism.freelance,alt.journalism.newspapers,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,bionet.biology.cardiovascular,bionet.biophysics,bionet.info-theory,bionet.neuroscience Subject: OSMOSIS? CAPILARY ACTION? ROOT PRESSURE? Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:55:57 -0000 Message-ID: <913539439.21414.0.nnrp-11.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: naturesway.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: naturesway.demon.co.uk:212.228.66.3 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 913539439 nnrp-11:21414 NO-IDENT naturesway.demon.co.uk:212.228.66.3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Lines: 695 Xref: biosci bionet.biology.cardiovascular:2846 bionet.biophysics:4639 bionet.info-theory:6717 bionet.neuroscience:26488 How does water really circulate all living things? GCSE Basic Physiology and water transport. OSMOSIS ? CAPILLARY ACTION? ROOT PRESSURE? "I have chosen to relate to the following text book because it is written by a person who like myself is not entirely satisfied by the explanations put forward in the relevant subjects". Figure C’s results raise the questions; What is osmosis and how are its qualities explained in the text books. For the currently accepted view of osmosis and all other views on water transport I will refer to one of the standard GCSE text books entitled GCSE BIOLOGY, D.G. Mackean. ISBN 0-7195-4281-2 first published in 1986. Page 34 fig 3 Diffusion gradient Page 36 OSMOSIS Osmosis is the special name used to describe the diffusion of water across a membrane, from a dilute solution to a more concentrated solution. In biology this usually means the diffusion of water into or out of cells Osmosis is just one special kind of because it is only water molecules and their movement we are considering. Figure 3 showed that molecules will diffuse from a region where there are a lot of them to a region where they are fewer in number; that is from a region of highly concentrated molecules to a region of lower concentration. Pure water has the highest possible concentration of water molecules; it is 100% water molecules, all of them free to move. Figure 9 shows a concentrated sugar solution, separated from a dilute solution by a membrane, which allows water molecules to pass through. The dilute solution, in effect contains more water molecules than the concentrated solution. As a result of this difference in concentration, water molecules will diffuse from the dilute to the concentrated solution. The level of the concentrated solution will rise or, if it is confined to an enclosed space, its pressure will increase. The membrane separating the two solutions is often called selectively permeable or semi-permeable because it appears as if water molecules can pass through it more easily than sugar molecules can. Osmosis then is the passage of water across a selectively permeable membrane from a dilute solution to a concentrated solution. This is all you need to know in order to understand the effects of osmosis in living organisms, But a more complete explanation is given below. ALTERNATIVE EXPLANATION FOR OSMOSIS The current text book explanation for osmosis appears to have ignored the effects of gravity on liquids. The constant pull of gravity acts differently on concentrated solutions than dilute solutions i.e. The concentrated solution is heavier than the dilute solution and will always settle at the bottom of a reservoir or in this case a vessel. To see this clearly, picture Fig 9 without the membrane; the result would be that the concentrated solution would sink and the dilute solution would rise. This effect will not stop because of the membrane. The concentrated solution will still cause the dilute solution to rise as we have seen earlier; and as the concentrated solution moves into the opposite side containing the dilute solution, the dilute solution is dragged through the membrane in a circular motion. For every action there must be a reaction. In order to prove this point add a little dye to the sugar solution and watch the exchange between the liquids. "When the effect that gravity exerts on concentrated solutions is added to the equation of water transport and osmosis, it gives us a very clear understanding of the driving mechanisms involved". Chapter 7 Transport in plants page 71 The main force which draws water from the soil and through the plant is caused by a process called transpiration. Water evaporates from the leaves and causes a kind of ‘suction ‘ which pulls water up the stem. The water travels up the vessels in the vascular bundles and this flow of water is called the transpiration stream. The water vapour passes by diffusion through the air spaces in the mesophyll and out of the stomata. It is this loss of water vapour from the leaves which is called transpiration. The cell walls which are losing water in this way replace it by drawing water from the nearest vein. Most of this water travels along the cell walls without actually going inside the cells. Thousands of leaf cells are evaporating water like this and drawing water to replace it from the xylem vessels in the veins. As a result , water is pulled through the xylem vessels and up the stem from the roots. This transpiration pull is strong enough to draw up water 50 metres or more in trees. Page 72 Most of this water evaporates from the leaves; only a tiny fraction is retained for photosynthesis and to maintain the turgor of the cells. The advantage to the plant of this excessive evaporation is not clear. A rapid water flow may be needed to obtain sufficient mineral salts, which are in very dilute solution in the soil. Evaporation may also help to cool the leaf when exposed to intense sunlight. Against the first possibility it has to be pointed out that, in some cases, an increased transpiration rate does not increase the uptake of minerals. Many biologists regard transpiration as an inevitable consequence of photosynthesis, in order to photosynthesise, a leaf has to take in carbon dioxide from the air. The pathway that lets carbon dioxide in will also let water vapour out whether the plant needs to lose water or not. In all probability, plants have to maintain a careful balance between the optimum intake of carbon dioxide and a damaging loss of water. Page 73 Humidity if the air is very humid, i.e. contains a great deal of water vapour, it can accept very little more from the plants and so transpiration slows down. In dry air, the diffusion of water vapour from the leaf to the atmosphere will be rapid. ( " I will deal with this point later on because it is very important and has implications for human health ") Air Movements: In still air, the region round a transpiring leaf will become saturated with water vapour so that no more can escape from the leaf. In these conditions, transpiration slows down. In moving air the water vapour will be swept away from the leaf as fast as it diffuses out. This will Speed up the transpiration. Furthermore, when the sun shines on the leaves, they will absorb heat as well as light. This warms them up and increases the rate of evaporation. Page 73 continued Water movement in the xylem You may have learned in physics that you cannot draw water up by suction to a height of more than about ten metres. Many trees are taller than this yet they can draw up water effectively. The explanation offered is that, in long vertical columns of water in very thin tubes, the attractive forces between the water molecules are greater than the forces trying to separate them. So in effect the transpiration stream is pulling up thin threads of water which resist the tendency to break. There are still problems however, it is likely that the water columns in some of the vessels do have air breaks in them and yet the total water flow is not affected. The evidence all points to the non-living xylem vessels as the main route by which water passes from the soil to the leaves. "This statement suggests that the long thin tubes of the tree ,are used for water transport, which are none-living , therefore must represent the tubes used in my experiments at Brixham." Page 74 Root Pressure In Experiment 8 on page 79 it is demonstrated that liquid may be forced up a stem by root pressure from the root system. The usual explanation for this is that the cell sap in the root hairs is more concentrated than the soil water and so water enters by osmosis (see page 36). The water passes from cell to cell by osmosis and is finally forced into the xylem vessels in the centre of the root and up the stem. This is rather an elaborate model from very little evidence. For example, a gradient of falling osmotic potentials from the outside to the inside of a root has not been demonstrated. However, there is some supporting evidence for the movement of water as a result of root pressure. root pressures of 1-2 atmospheres have been recorded, and these would support columns of water 10 or 20 metres high. Some workers claim pressures of up to eight atmospheres (i.e. 80 metres of water) " A column of water 80 metres high would undoubtedly cause water pressures of eight atmospheres at the roots. However It is very difficult to see how a root could generate 8 atmospheres of pressure." However, root pressure seems to occur mainly in the young herbaceous (i.e. non-woody) plants or in woody plants early in the growing season and though in many species it must contribute to water movements in the stem. The observed rates of flow are too fast to be explained by root pressure alone. Transport of salts The liquid which travels in the xylem is not, in fact pure water. It is a very dilute solution, containing from 0.1to1.0% dissolved solids, mostly amino acids, other organic acids and mineral salts. The organic acids are made in the roots; the mineral salts come from the soil. The faster the flow in the transpiration stream, the more dilute is the xylem sap. Experimental evidence suggests that salts are carried from the soil to the leaves mainly in the xylem vessels. Transport of food The xylem sap is always a very dilute solution, but the Phloem sap may contain up to 25 per cent of dissolved solids, The bulk of which consists of sucrose and amino acids. There is a good deal of evidence to support the view that sucrose amino acids and may other substances are transported in the phloem. The movement of water and salts in the xylem is always upwards, from the soil to the leaf. But in the phloem the sap may be travelling up or down the stem. The carbohydrates made in the leaf during photosynthesis are converted to sucrose and carried out of the leaf to the stem. From here the sucrose may pass upwards to growing buds and fruits or downwards to the roots and storage organs. All parts of a plant which cannot photosynthesise will need a supply of nutrients bought by the phloem. It is possible for substances to be travelling upwards and downwards at the same time in the phloem. "note the dual flow has been observed in experiments with concentrated solution and water filled tubes." Page 74 continued There is no doubt that substances travel in the sieve tubes of the phloem But the mechanism by which they are moved is not fully understood. There are several theories, which attempt to explain how sucrose and other solutes are transported in the phloem but none of them is entirely satisfactory. Page 75 Uptake of water and salts The water tension developed in the vessels by a rapidly transpiring plant is thought to be sufficient to draw water through the root from the soil. The precise pathway taken by the water is the subject of some debate, but the path of least resistance seems to be in or between the cell walls rather than through the cells. When transpiration is slow, e.g. at night time or just before bud burst in a deciduous tree, then osmosis may play a more important part in the uptake of water. One problem for this explanation is that it has not been possible to demonstrate that there is an osmotic gradient across the root cortex which could produce this flow of water from cell to cell. Nevertheless, root pressure developed probably by osmosis can be shown to force water up the root system and into the stem page 76 The methods by which roots take up salts from the soil are not fully understood. Some salts may be carried in with the water drawn up by transpiration and pass mainly along the cell walls in the root cortex and into the xylem. It may be that diffusion from a relatively high concentration in the soil to a lower concentration in the root cells accounts for uptake of some individual salts. But it has been shown (a) that salts can be taken from the soil even when their concentration is below that in the roots and (b) that anything which interferes with respiration impairs the uptake of salts. This suggests that active transport (p.35) plays an important part in the uptake of salts. The thing that becomes clear from reading the established explanations for water transport is that if it were a bucket, very little water would be transported due to the large number of holes in it ! 'A new scientific truth is not usually presented in a way to convince its opponents. Rather, they die off, and a rising generation is familiarised with the truth from the start.' Max Planck ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- HTML COPY available which shows animated working models. If you would like a copy, send me an email with your address details and contact information and a brief note relating to your background and interest in this subject. If I receive a lot of requests for this file, I will consider publishing it on my web page. But would rather know who wants it and why. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- The following review came from a letter I wrote to professor H T Hammel, who is a powerful member of the Max Planck Institute. INDIANA UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDIICINE date September 6/ 1995 Dear Mr Fletcher: I received the information you sent me regarding your ideas about fluid transport in trees, in tubing and in the vascular system in humans. I will study your ideas and comment upon them as soon as possible. A Quick scan of your Brixham experiment prompts me to ask if you conducted this experiment with boiled water without any solute added to the tubing on either side of the central point which you raise 24 meters? I expect that you could raise the tubing to the same height with or without solute in the water. In any case , your experiment confirms that clean water (water that is unbroken water, water that is without a single minute bubble of vapour) can support tension of several hundreds of atmospheres. The record tension obtained experimentally is 270 atmospheres. At 10 degrees C. (c.f. Briggs, L. Limiting negative pressure of water. Journal of Applied Physics 21: 721-722 1950). I expect even this tension at brake point can be exceeded by careful cleansing of the water, to remove even the most minute region of gas phase. When the water is already broken, as occurs when gas is entrapped on particulate matter in ordinary water, the water will expand around even a single break when tension (negative Pressure) is applied to the water. When you boil the water, prior to applying (2.4-1) ATM negative pressure to the water in the highest point of the tubing, you eliminate some of these breaks in ordinary water. I expect that dissolving NaCl or other solutes in the water will have little or no effect on the way you measure the tensile strength of water. I am enclosing some reprints that may interest you. Some of these deal with negative pressures we have measured in tall trees, mangroves and desert shrubs. Other reprints deal with how solutes alter water in aqueous solutions and how colloidal solutes (proteins) affect the flux of protein free fluid between plasma in capillaries and interstitial fluid. Sincerely H.T. Hammel Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Physiology and Biophysics, Indiana University. Emeritus Professor of Physiology, University of California, San Diego. Foreign Scientific Member Max-Planck-Institut fur physiologische und Klinische, Forschung. cc: Professor Michel Cabanac, Laval University, Quebec ------------------------------------------- New Theory for Fluid Transport ------------------------------------------- Introduction: All life on earth developed with one thing in common; Earth! The constant forces are gravity, and the energy from the sun. The most abundant resources are minerals and water. Plants and animals alike, all depend on the properties of water for transporting minerals and nutrients. Because life is based on water, in that everything alive started from a few drops, life must have evolved by finding the easiest and most direct pathway, after all liquids are very good at finding the most direct route possible. Yet, at first glance, everywhere one looks life appears to have chosen the least likely of paths, if it is trying to overcome the effects of gravity. Would trees, with species like the giant Californian redwoods (sequoia sempervirens), towering over a hundred metres high have chosen a vertical direction? How then have plants and animals harnessed the constant pull of gravity in order to thrive and grow? On a summer day a large oak tree may take up a hundred gallons of water or more, enriched with minerals and nutrients from the soil. At first glance it is doing so against the pull of gravity, producing flow rates, which cannot be explained or shown by working models based on osmosis, capillary action or root pressure. So how are trees doing it? ----------------- Explanation ----------------- Over 95% of the waters drawn in at the roots of a tree evaporate into the surrounding air through the leaves by transpiration. The evaporated moisture contains no minerals. However, the water remaining inside the tree contains a variety of mineral salts dissolved from the soil, together with sugars produced by the tree. The transpired water results in a concentration of salts and sugars within the leaves. Concentrating a liquid, (sap), which contains substances that are heavier than water, must result in the production of a heavier solution than the pre-transpired liquid. Because of the resulting imbalance in density the heavier solution is drawn towards the base of the tree, due to the effect of gravity (maple syrup, latex and amber are evidence for this). Downward flowing sap occurs predominantly within the phloem vessels. When an excess of concentrated liquid is produced during favourable weather conditions, the downward flowing sap forms new tubes from the cambium, as it is forced down by gravity, in a continual cycle of growth. In hard woods, sap flows from cell to cell through openings or perforations, in the membrane between abutting vessels. In soft-woods, the sap flow controls movable valves, or pits - (thin areas), in the walls of conducting tracheids. Concentrated pulses of sap may eventually be found to be present in some xylem vessels, as gravity inevitably finds the most direct route, with the least resistance, to the ground. But for every action there must always be a reaction, and the reaction in this case is that the downward flowing liquid behaves exactly like a plunger in a syringe. As it flows down it causes the entire contents of connected tubes filled with the less dense liquid to be drawn up. Here we have a simple power source, which is driven purely by evaporation, posture and gravity. The forces produced by this phenomenon are easy to demonstrate in simple tubular experiments. The main forces are produced at the head and tail of the falling solutions. The head produces a positive force, or pressure, and the tail produces a negative pressure. I believe that the positive force within the mineral laden sap is responsible for the formation of the tubular structures found in timber. The positive force prevents tubes from closing. As more sap flows through the same pathways, some of the sap is used to strengthen the tubes which will eventually become strong enough to resist the negative pressures. The tree transports the dilute solution of water and minerals to the leaves using these tubes. Thereafter becoming what we call the xylem vessels. As the concentrated liquid falls towards the ground, minerals are locked away as timber, while the mineral laden liquid arriving at the roots is inevitably re-diluted by the dilute solution drawn from the soil. The imbalance in the liquid is corrected as it becomes lighter or less dense than the downward flowing sap and begins its journey back to the leaves, where the process continues, providing the tree with a constant supply of water and nutrients. In the autumn / fall, when the leaves have fallen, the circulation is altered as a greater positive pressure is exerted towards the roots, because transpiration has ceased and therefore fluids flowing towards the top of the tree would be compromised. At this time of the year root growth would be most productive. As fluid channels begin to offer resistance, the sap must find alternative routes. The new directions may be vertical or horizontal, but always in the path of least resistance. Eventually tubes become redundant and new tubes are formed. Fluids of different specific gravity have been observed to flow in both directions, simultaneously while in the same tube. In fact this 'transpiring gravitational flow system' is able to operate without tubes and has been attributed to causing the oceans to circulate (Atlantic conveyor system). ----------------------------------------- Early attempts at lifting water: ----------------------------------------- The story goes that the reigning Grand Duke of Tuscany had ordered a well to be dug to supply the ducal palace with water. The workmen came upon water at a depth of 40 feet, and the next step was to pump it up. A vacuum lift pump was erected over the well, and a pipe let down to the water, but the water was found to rise to a height of 33 feet and no more, in spite of the most careful overhauling of the pump mechanism. It was at this stage that Galileo was consulted. While the famous philosopher was unable to offer a solution, he at least indicated the problem. Here above the 33 feet of water was seven feet of vacuum. The limit for raising water by suction in a tube appeared to be thirty-three feet. Why should there be this limit when trees are observed to ignore it? By introducing a loop of tubing, instead of a single tube, to simulate the internal structure of plants and trees, and suspending it by the centre, the problem of raising water above the 33 feet limit is solved! The reason a loop of tubing succeeds where a single tube fails is because the cohesive bond of water molecules is far stronger than the adhesive qualities of water observed in Galileo's lift-pump problem. Using a loop of tubing enables water molecules to bond to each other in an unbroken chain. It helps to picture the unbroken loop of water as a cord instead of a liquid, supported by a pulley in the centre with tension applied to both ends. The columns of water held in both sides of the tube exert a downward force due to the weight of the water contained in the tube. This force causes the water molecules in the tube to be stretched, causing the water to behave like an elastic band. In order to demonstrate this affect on water molecules I repeated the experiment shown in figure 1 without the added saline solution, the two open ends of the tube at ground level were removed from the demijohns, exposing them to the air. Though the tube contained water, it did not flow from either side of the tube. In fact the opposite effect was observed; the water level in both sides of the tube immediately rose to a new level about half a metre from the ends of the tube. Even more surprising the water columns stayed there suspended by the cohesion between the water molecules. In order to try to upset the balance I then blew up one side of the tube, causing the water level on that side to rise. I then released the pressure and the water returned to the same equal level. This observation offers an exciting explanation to the problem of explaining why water does not pour from the wound when a tree is felled. However, the present laws of physics state that water cannot exist in its liquid form below 4.6 torr, yet the water remains in the tube. Only when the tube is lowered, or if a bubble appears at the top of the loop of tubing does the water flow out from the open ends. ----------------------------------------------------- THE BRIXHAM CLIFF EXPERIMENT ----------------------------------------------------- This experiment successfully demonstrated fluid transport to a height, which exceeds the current accepted limit of 10 metres and how this applies to the way that trees draw water to their leaves. APPARATUS 48 metre single length of clear nylon tubing, 6.35 mm inside diameter x 9.5 mm outside diameter (type used to draw ales in the brewery trade), two clear glass demijohns, a large tray, 50 mils of concentrated salt solution with added red food dye, 50ml syringe minus the needle, sufficient degassed or previously boiled and cooled water to fill the tubing, the demijohns, and for adequate top ups. Adequate nylon cord to hoist the tubing and pulley to the desired height, a small pulley and adhesive cello-tape. METHOD The two demijohns were filled to the brim with the water and placed in a suitable tray to catch any displaced water. The length of tubing was half filled with the water by siphoning. This was achieved by submerging one end of the tube in the water filled demijohn placed on a table. When the water reached the centre of the loop, the open end of the tube was capped with a thumb. The end of the tube in the demijohn was removed and the 50 mils of coloured salt water was introduced via the large syringe. The demijohn was then re-filled to the brim and the tube was re-submerged, making sure that no bubbles were introduced by adjusting the height of the unfilled side of the tube. By removing the thumb, the remaining length of tube was filled and again capped, making sure that no air was trapped inside the tube. At this point the demijohns were, refilled. The capped end of the tube was then inserted into the other water filled demijohn and both ends secured at an equal level, with cello-tape, again making sure that no air was allowed to enter the tube. A length of the nylon cord equal to that of the length of tubing used was passed through the pulley, provided a safe ground level means to hoist the loop of tubing to the desired height. The pulley and the main nylon cord was hoisted to the desired height and secured at the top of the cliff on a separate length of cord. Adhesive cello-tape was wrapped heavily around the two sides of the loop of tubing 15cm from its centre to secure one knotted end of the main nylon cord, which ran through the pulley for the purpose of lifting the tube, taking care not to reduce the tubes diameter. The cello-tape was used to bind the cord to the tube. Coloured insulation tape was used to secure both sides of the tube together providing an excellent ascent measurement when placed at one-metre intervals. The centre of the tube was then gently hoisted, taking care to keep the ascent as smooth as possible. As the tube was raised the salt solution began to fall, due to the influence of gravity; this caused one of the demijohns to start overflowing indicating a positive pressure, while the second demijohn began to lose water at the same rate indicating a negative pressure. The emptying demijohn received frequent top ups, until the salt solution arrived at the overflowing demijohn and the flow stopped. CONCLUSION The fifty mils of salt solution caused the water in the tubes to circulate. The amount of water displaced and collected in the tray represents approximately the volume of water held in one side of the tube. Which meant that the fifty mils of salt solution had lifted water from one demijohn to the height of 24 metres and caused water many times its own weight and volume to rise. (I have used as little as 10 mils of coloured salt solution in the same experiment with a slower rate of decent but with similar displacements of water). Initially the experiments were tested at lower levels of elevation. 24 metres vertical lift was achieved when demonstrating the phenomenon before an audience of journalists and Forestry Commission scientists at the Overgang cliff, Brixham, July 1995. BENCH DEMONSTRATION For the purpose of demonstrating this phenomenon use a scaled down two metre high version of Fig 1. Substituting the demijohns for small narrow necked bottles. The type of tubing used to oxygenate aquariums is ideal for this purpose. A two-mil syringe minus needle, filled with coloured salt solution, connected to a T piece via a short length of tube, may be added close to the centre of the elevated tube to introduce salt solution intermittently while the tube is elevated, providing multiple demonstrations. Furthermore, the tube used in the salt free side of the experiment, (return side), may be of a larger bore size. Soft wall, silicon tubing shows visible signs of distortion when the saline solution is allowed to flow through it. The side containing the saline solution expands while the other side contracts, again indicating the presence of both positive and negative, pressures. The experiments shown have been repeated using a variety of substitutes for salt solution, such as strong tea solution, fruit juices and milk etc. in order to relate directly to plants and animals. The flow rates achieved using different solutions, produced different rates of flow. Umbrella Plant Experiment, (cyperus ) In order to demonstrate that liquids of higher concentrations move through plants in relation to the constant pull of gravity. Take a freshly cut stem about 15cm long, with leaves intact, from an umbrella plant. Place the cutting upside down, in a glass container of water. After several weeks the umbrella plant starts to grow roots from what was the top of the plant and new stems are produced, as the shoots grow vertically in the normal way. The liquid processes involved within the plant for both root and leaf production, must have travelled from one end of the cut stem to the other. Indicating that gravity has an important influence. When relating back to trees, the negative pressure, observed in the demijohn with the falling water level, provides us with a clear understanding of the mechanisms involved in drawing water through the roots from the soil. The positive pressures caused by the weight of the column of water held in the tree, plus the additional influence of gravity acting on the concentrated solutions, induced by the loss of moisture at the leaf, provides the roots with sufficient power to penetrate the earth. ROOT PRESSURE Explanation for fluid exuding from a cut stem. To demonstrate this effect, fill a vertically held open ended u tube with water, Fig 2A, and add a little coloured concentrated salt solution to one side, Fig 2B, the level of the salt solution will drop causing the opposite side to overflow. Imagine the loop of tubing is one of many tubes in the stem of a freshly cut plant or tree with roots in the soil. The overflowing water represents the xylem sap rising under the influence of the positive pressure, generated by gravity acting upon the concentrated sap in the phloem tube. This is an important observation that gives a clear understanding of why plants and trees continue to grow upwards. Little or no cross contamination takes place between liquids in the clean-water-side and the coloured saline side of the tube. Fig 2 C, I have left this experiment suspended for five days and it appears to remain stable. Circulation within an enclosed system, Fig 3, eliminates siphon as an explanation, demonstrating that flow occurs inside and would continue to do so if the tube was pressurised. The thin columns of water in trees are known to brake, making a cracking sound through a stethoscope. Cavitation occurs immediately the bead of water separates. The formation of gas at the uppermost part of the raised loop of tubing, Fig 1, caused both columns of water to fall towards the ground and form a new level of 33 feet. The space above the water columns is a vacuum. The circulation in trees continues, despite continuous cavitations, which means that they are able to refill or repair the vacuum. The internal part of a tree is a network of veins, or tubes, most of which run vertically. However some tubes run at an angle and some horizontally and provide links to other tubes, which interconnect at random levels. The internal tubular parts of the tree are themselves captivated inside a large tube, which is of course the bark or outer skin. Water columns within the internal tubes of a tree, are continually stressed under a negative pressure, caused by downward flowing concentrated solutions within the trunk and branches. Cavitation occurs because the long thin columns of water are pulled apart. Immediately the cavitation forms, the internal pressures of that tube switch from a negative pressure to a positive pressure, forcing the more dilute solution in the opposing side of adjoined tubes upwards, Fig 2.B. & Fig 2 C. The downward force causes an increase in the head of water at the top of the tube. It is this increase in the head of water that gives a tree both momentum and direction to follow in its cyclical growth. Furthermore an increase in the positive pressure above the cavitation refills and repairs the vacuum, therefore enabling the tree to continue with water transport, and allowing gas bubbles to percolate upwards and out through the leaves. This ability of the tree to switch from positive pressure to negative pressure and visa-versa gives us an understanding of the pressures observed in the roots of the tree. The roots being able to drive down through the earth under a positive pressure and expanding forces yet are still able to suck in water under a negative pressure. Safety * Students conducting any overhead experiments must observe the same Hard Hat safety regulations imposed on building workers. * Experiments involving tube elevations higher than classroom levels should always be supervised. The safest area for this kind of experiment to take place is on a spiral staircase. Cliff top experiments are dangerous. * A nylon line passed through a small pulley block, which has been secured at the desired height, enables the loop of tube to be elevated safely from ground level. * Boiling water is dangerous and should not be handled or moved until it has cooled sufficiently enough to prevent scalding. END A simple thought experiment This thought experiment is designed to clarify the direction and momentum of fluids as they are pulled and pushed through the body by the magnetic or attractive force of gravity. Red represents both high levels of oxygen and concentrated solutions caused by the loss of moisture during the evaporative processes which occur in bodily functions. The alterations in specific gravity which occur in the fluids close to the surface lining of the lungs, respiratory tract and skin, could well be responsible for providing the dissolved oxygen, which we require, with sufficient force to enter the circulatory system. Blue represents both low oxygen and a reduction in specific gravity, due to the loss of spent salts in the excreted urine, which is shown as yellow in the drawing. The increase in more dilute fluids from the stomach and intestines, is also anaerobic (containing no oxygen) producing methane as a by-product. Therefore the liquids entering the system from our diet would contain no oxygen, which would undoubtedly cause any blood which passes through to show a significant reduction in oxygen. Now apply the principles of pressures generated by the tiny pulses of concentrated solutions as they travel through the various tubes of the thought diagram. Personally I find that this simple drawing helps to keep my mind focused sharply on the holistic processes involved in all living things, be they plants or people. Strangely enough there is a similar drawing in most physiology books, which shows the direction of the circulatory system. Judge for yourself by looking at both drawings which way the fluid's flow and how they are driven. As I have said earlier the only way to gain a good understanding of science is to form your own opinions, based on all the evidence you can lay your hands on. If for instance you see an experiment in a paper or a textbook, including this one, providing the experiment is not going to cost you a fortune, set it up. But then you must also try to find an alternative explanation for the processes that you witness. Urine for instance was used to determine whether fluid transport could be taking place in humans and animals, In a similar process. For example respiration causes water to evaporate from the lungs and respiratory tract. Fluids remaining in the body contain minerals and must therefore be concentrated. Gravity causes the heavy solution to be drawn back through the lining of the lungs and respiratory tract and down through the vessels in the body, carrying dissolved oxygen with it. Concentrated solutions arrive at the bladder via the kidneys where they are excreted in the urine. However the kidneys are not 100% efficient and some minerals arrive in the lowest anatomical extremities, solidifying as finger and toenails or horses hooves etc. Clippings of which sink when dropped into water. Andrew K Fletcher Page 1 15/04/98 Summer Haze, 26 Berry Drive, Paignton, Devon, TQ3 3QW, UK. Dr David Cutler of The Jodrel Laboratory at Kew Gardens is curently helping me to write a paper on this subject in a way that it might be published in a journal. I could sure use some more help and would appreciate offers of publicity. Andrews News wrote in message <913461890.7789.0.nnrp-05.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk>... From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Sat Dec 12 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!agate!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-a.ais.net!ais.net!nntp.giganews.com!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!scully.tamu.edu!not-for-mail From: wej3715@scully.tamu.edu (Walter Eric Johnson) Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories,bionet.biology.cardiovascular,bionet.biophysics,bionet.info-theory,bionet.neuroscience Subject: Re: OSMOSIS? CAPILLARY ACTION? ROOT PRESSURE? Followup-To: alt.journalism.freelance,alt.journalism.newspapers,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,bionet.biology.cardiovascular,bionet.biophysics,bionet.info-theory,bionet.neuroscience Date: 13 Dec 1998 22:48:39 GMT Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas Lines: 10 Message-ID: <751g87$e41$1@news.tamu.edu> References: <913539439.21414.0.nnrp-11.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> <913570043.11659.0.nnrp-06.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: unix.tamu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 1998 22:48:39 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: biosci bionet.biology.cardiovascular:2848 bionet.biophysics:4642 bionet.info-theory:6719 bionet.neuroscience:26506 Andrew K Fletcher (andrew.k.fletcher@naturesway.demon.co.uk) wrote: : Its mighty quiet out there? is this the calm before the storm or has science : already conceded? : : Surely someone out there must have something to say on this subject? Are you really suggesting that fingernails and toenails are just minerals which "settled to the bottom"? Eric Johnson From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Sat Dec 12 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!news.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!naturesway.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: "Andrew K Fletcher" Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.microbiology,bionet.neuroscience Subject: Re: The truth is out there Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:38:47 -0000 Message-ID: <913570714.12075.0.nnrp-06.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> References: <73sh3s$1n2$2@news.tamu.edu> <912381406.6676.0.nnrp-04.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> <73t7tt$9kr$2@news.tamu.edu> <36635D8D.46F680BA@pop3.concentric.net> <740246$k24$1@news.tamu.edu> <913500941.7312.0.nnrp-04.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> <36733F0D.5BA589C9@pop3.concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: naturesway.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: naturesway.demon.co.uk:212.228.66.3 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 913570714 nnrp-06:12075 NO-IDENT naturesway.demon.co.uk:212.228.66.3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Lines: 40 Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4641 bionet.microbiology:15323 bionet.neuroscience:26501 Thanks for your kind review Ken Would like to offer the following remark to the use of a microscope, and hope it is received in a positive context. Education has been the downfall of science and prohibits free thinking. Education causes people to stop before they say something. A child is far more clever than some well educated people, whom I have met. They have become too well educated, and no longer see the wood for the trees. A top scientist was talking on a BBC radio program about the advances in science. Listeners were invited to ask him questions. Needless to say there were not many takers. However I asked him this question: "When you look through your microscope, do you see more or less of the object which you are focused on?". To my surprise he couldn't answer the question and blinded the question with B.S. and somewhat hesitant political skill. A child would have probably answered "More", meaning more detail, but you actually see less of the object. I was trying to point out that the closer one looks at the details the less one sees. In other words step back and look at the whole picture. This is particularly important with regard to trying to work out how things happen in the real world. You can't take a slice from a tree any more than you can take a slice from a vital organ, to find out how it works because you have disconected it. "Sorry for stating the obvious again". kkollins@pop3.concentric.net wrote in message <36733F0D.5BA589C9@pop3.concentric.net>... >Good for you, Andrew, the integration inherent in your Theory is >Quite-Nice. You can Verify your position be-cause, if it's Correct, the >"tube"-construction must be graded over the length of the tubes >(greatest where the tube is oldest, least where the tube is newest.) a >carefully cross-sectioned tree, a microscope, and the Will to do what'll >be a lengthy cross-correlation process are all you need. > >I enjoyed reading your work. Cheers, Ken Collins > >Andrews K Fletcher wrote: > >[his Interesting Theoretical Position re. water flow in trees] From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Sat Dec 12 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!rutgers!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!naturesway.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: "Andrew K Fletcher" Newsgroups: alt.journalism.freelance,alt.journalism.newspapers,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,bionet.biology.cardiovascular,bionet.biophysics,bionet.info-theory,bionet.neuroscience Subject: Re: OSMOSIS? CAPILLARY ACTION? ROOT PRESSURE? Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:27:07 -0000 Message-ID: <913570043.11659.0.nnrp-06.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> References: <913539439.21414.0.nnrp-11.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: naturesway.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: naturesway.demon.co.uk:212.228.66.3 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 913570043 nnrp-06:11659 NO-IDENT naturesway.demon.co.uk:212.228.66.3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Lines: 18 Xref: biosci bionet.biology.cardiovascular:2847 bionet.biophysics:4640 bionet.info-theory:6718 bionet.neuroscience:26500 Its mighty quiet out there? is this the calm before the storm or has science already conceded? Surely someone out there must have something to say on this subject? Andrew K Fletcher wrote in message <913539439.21414.0.nnrp-11.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk>... > How does water really circulate all living things? > >GCSE Basic Physiology and water transport. > >OSMOSIS ? CAPILLARY ACTION? ROOT PRESSURE? >Andrews News wrote in message ><913461890.7789.0.nnrp-05.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk>... From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Sun Dec 13 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!nntp.giganews.com!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!scully.tamu.edu!not-for-mail From: wej3715@scully.tamu.edu (Walter Eric Johnson) Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.microbiology,bionet.neuroscience Subject: Re: The truth is out there Followup-To: bionet.biophysics,bionet.microbiology,bionet.neuroscience Date: 14 Dec 1998 12:01:04 GMT Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas Lines: 17 Message-ID: <752um0$j8f$1@news.tamu.edu> References: <73sh3s$1n2$2@news.tamu.edu> <912381406.6676.0.nnrp-04.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> <73t7tt$9kr$2@news.tamu.edu> <36635D8D.46F680BA@pop3.concentric.net> <740246$k24$1@news.tamu.edu> <913500941.7312.0.nnrp-04.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> <36733F0D.5BA589C9@pop3.concentric.net> <913570714.12075.0.nnrp-06.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> <751qem$lci@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: unix.tamu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 1998 12:01:04 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4650 bionet.microbiology:15332 bionet.neuroscience:26539 F. Frank LeFever (flefever@ix.netcom.com) wrote: : : Nice that each has found someone who "understands". : Let us hope they email each other directly, incessantly. : : Maybe someone should fund a think-tank for these great minds--with : padded walls? We have a couple of other candidates, absent from this : group (mercifully) for a while, but not forgotten... I think they have something going there. Let's not discourage them from forming a company to mine toenails for valuable metals. "Thar's gold in them thar toenails." It could be the start of another gold rush. People would wake up after being slipped a mickey to find that someone had stolen their fingernails and toenails. This could be the start of something big. Eric Johnson From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Sun Dec 13 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!agate!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!naturesway.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: "Andrew K Fletcher" Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics,bionet.microbiology,bionet.neuroscience Subject: Re: The truth is out there Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:37:56 -0000 Message-ID: <913625143.20003.0.nnrp-10.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> References: <73sh3s$1n2$2@news.tamu.edu> <912381406.6676.0.nnrp-04.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> <73t7tt$9kr$2@news.tamu.edu> <36635D8D.46F680BA@pop3.concentric.net> <740246$k24$1@news.tamu.edu> <913500941.7312.0.nnrp-04.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> <36733F0D.5BA589C9@pop3.concentric.net> <913570714.12075.0.nnrp-06.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> <751qem$lci@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: naturesway.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: naturesway.demon.co.uk:212.228.66.3 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 913625143 nnrp-10:20003 NO-IDENT naturesway.demon.co.uk:212.228.66.3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Lines: 81 Xref: biosci bionet.biophysics:4649 bionet.microbiology:15330 bionet.neuroscience:26535 Dear Frank your reaction is not a new one to my work, though I did expect better from you. Have you repeated my experiment with the tubing? All one would require to do so is a 4 metre length of aeration tubing from a pet shop that sells fish, a suitable tray to catch water in, a 2ml syringe and a T joint- optional and two small necked bottles. With the syringe filled with coloured concentrated salt solution attached to the T joint fixed via a short length of the soft walled tubing, to the centre of the main tube Place the water filled open ends of the tubes in the water filled bottles taking care not to get bubbles in the water. Then raise the centre of the tube vertically and suspend from a hook or whatever is available, so that the syringe is attached to the side which is lower. Top up the bottles to the brim with more water. Mop up any water spilled. Inject a small amount of the coloured salt solution into the suspended loop of tubing. Result The saline solution obviously flows down one side of the tubing. The other side of the tubing causes water to be drawn from one bottle to the other, indicated by one overflowing bottle and one falling water level in the other bottle. Top up the falling water level side regularly and once circulation has slowed, indicated by the arrival of the coloured salt solution in the receiving bottle, re=inject a little more saline solution. Repeat until syringe is empty. Then measure the displaced water. Once you have performed this ridiculously simple experiment, perhaps you would like to revise your previous comment. Alternatively, send me an Email, asking for the HTML version and I will gladly post it to you. I have adopted this approach because I want to keep track of everyone who become interested in my work. The reason that gravity is of importance to the restoration of a damaged nervous system will be dealt with in due course. Osmosis, Capillary action and root pressure are erroneous explanations in relation to fluid transport within trees and plants and animals, including humans. To defend such explanations, blindly merely lowers ones stature in the face of undeniable evidence. I do hope we become friends along this somewhat lonely road? F. Frank LeFever wrote in message <751qem$lci@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>... > >Nice that each has found someone who "understands". >Let us hope they email each other directly, incessantly. > >Maybe someone should fund a think-tank for these great minds--with >padded walls? We have a couple of other candidates, absent from this >group (mercifully) for a while, but not forgotten... > >F. LeFever > > > >In <913570714.12075.0.nnrp-06.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> "Andrew K >Fletcher" writes: >> >>Thanks for your kind review Ken From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Sun Dec 13 22:00:00 1998 From: "clive delmonte" Newsgroups: bionet.biophysics Subject: DNA Structure: Puzzle Number 11 Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:34:58 -0000 Lines: 39 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.7.225.70 Message-ID: <3674c735.0@news.netdirect.net.uk> X-Trace: 14 Dec 1998 08:07:17 GMT, 195.7.225.70 Path: biosci!pravda.ucr.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.new-york.net!voyager.nildram.com!peer.news.nildram.co.uk!news-peer.netdirect.net.uk!news.netdirect.net.uk!195.7.225.70 Kabata et al. (18) have found direct evidence that RNA polymerase slides along its target DNA and does not progress in a helical manner around the DNA. Every alternating half turn of the DNA would be therefore facing away from the polymerase in a double-helical, cylindrically symmetrical duplex DNA. In such a model, would there have to be two reading frames, each deployed on alternating half turns ? If so, how exactly would the bases to be "read" right round a full turn of the double helix ? The true side-by-side duplex DNA (Puzzle 1, ref.1) is not cylindrically symmetrical, and the stacked base pairs are only accessible from one face of the duplex. Therefore sequence-sensitive polymerases, restriction endonucleases and transcription proteins can operate on just one face using only one reading frame to decode the base sequence. 17 Visualisation of Single Molecules of RNA Polymerase Sliding along DNA; H. Kabata, O. Kurosawa, I. Arai, M. Washizu, S.A. Margarson, R.E. Glass & N. Shimamoto; SCIENCE Vol 262 (1993) 1561 - 1562 ---------------------------------------------------- Clive Delmonte From owner-biophysics@net.bio.net Sun Dec 13 22:00:00 1998 Path: biosci!rutgers!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!207.155.183.80.MISMATCH!global-news-master From: kkollins@pop3.concentric.net Newsgroups: alt.journalism.freelance,alt.journalism.newspapers,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,bionet.biology.cardiovascular,bionet.biophysics,bionet.info-theory,bionet.neuroscience Subject: Re: OSMOSIS? CAPILLARY ACTION? ROOT PRESSURE? Date: 13 Dec 1998 20:20:54 PST Organization: sufficient Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3674919E.50007FE3@pop3.concentric.net> References: <913539439.21414.0.nnrp-11.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> <913570043.11659.0.nnrp-06.d4e44203@news.demon.co.uk> <751g87$e41$1@news.tamu.edu> <3674686A.E6E414EF@pop3.concentric.net> Reply-To: kkollins@concentric.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ts003d21.spr-ma.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) Xref: biosci bionet.biology.cardiovascular:2850 bionet.biophysics:4647 bionet.info-theory:6722 bionet.neuroscience:26530 CLARIFICATION: kkollins@pop3.concentric.net wrote: > > Walter Eric Johnson wrote: > > > > Andrew K Fletcher (andrew.k.fletcher@naturesway.demon.co.uk) wrote: > > : Its mighty quiet out there? is this the calm before the storm or has science > > : already conceded? > > : > > : Surely someone out there must have something to say on this subject? > > > > Are you really suggesting that fingernails and toenails are > > just minerals which "settled to the bottom"? > > I'd not gotten such out of my reading of what Andrew's posted, but if > that's where he's going, I can offer the following stuff as > food-for-thought... > > If one views evolutionary dynamics from the perspective of what's > described by 2nd Thermo (wdb2t), then a pretty-much air-tight case can > be made in favour of a "suggesti[on] that fingernails and toenails are > just minerals which 'settled to the bottom'". > > How's it so? > > Take the view that what Life Does is climb the wdb2d gradient, which is > an =Excellent= thing to do be-cause 100% of the available Physical > evidence "says" that, no matter where one "looks", the directionality > inherent in the wdb2t gradient points =Exactly=, and =Deterministically= > to increased energy availability (such stands Proven, so please don't > "buzz" me with resp