From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Thu May 01 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!daresbury!uninett.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.indiana.edu!indyvax.iupui.edu!indyvax.iupui.edu!nntp Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: fast-evolving markers in prokaryotes Message-ID: <336A441D.5828@mdep.iupui.edu> From: "Diane R. Stothard, Ph.D." Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 14:44:29 -0500 Reply-To: dstothar@mdep.iupui.edu Organization: Indiana University Medical School Nntp-Posting-Host: 134.68.197.41 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Hi again, Unfortunately, I forgot that my e-mail address has changed, so if any of you have tried to respond to me re: my post on fast-evolving molecular markers for intracellular bacteria, I have not received your reply. My new address should now be above, if you would like to try again. (dstothar@mdep.iupui.edu) Thanks, Diane My original post was along the lines of: I am looking for a fast-evolving molecular marker to use in the study of population structure between strains of an obligate intracellular prokaryote. I have tried a surface antigen and it is not fast enough. I thought about the 16S-23S intergenic spacer, but I was not sure if it would be any faster. RAPDs are out of the question due to host-cell contamination. If you have any suggestions, please contact me directly. Thanks From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Thu May 01 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!daresbury!uninett.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!howland.erols.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.indiana.edu!indyvax.iupui.edu!indyvax.iupui.edu!nntp Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.evolution,bionet.population-bio Subject: fast-evolving molecular marker in prokaryotes Message-ID: <336A0B75.2E9A@infect.dmed.iupui.edu> From: "Diane R. Stothard" Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 10:42:45 -0500 Reply-To: dianes@infect.dmed.iupui.edu Organization: Indiana Univeristy Medical Center Nntp-Posting-Host: 134.68.197.41 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.evolution:6014 bionet.population-bio:2387 Hi all! I am working on an obligate-intracellular microorganism and would like to examine population structure among strains. I have tried using an outer membrane protein, and it does evolve at a pretty fast rate, but not fast enough. Can anyone suggest another possibility? RAPDs are out of the question because of host-cell contamination. (I have thought of the 16S-23S intergenic spacer region, but I'm not sure if it would be more helpful or not.) Please reply directly to me. Thanks, Diane From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Thu May 01 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!CC.OWU.EDU!OOKOMAR From: OOKOMAR@CC.OWU.EDU (OLIVER KOMAR) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Congreso en Tegucigalpa, 23-27 junio 1997 Date: 2 May 1997 09:26:04 -0700 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 141 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <01IIE68FDEKI00C6Q5@CC.OWU.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net RE: CONGRESO EN TEGUCIGALPA, 23-27 DE JUNIO DE 1997 Estimados colegas: Les solicitamos a ustedes que nos ayuden a informar a colegas biologos o conservacionistas a traves de Mesoamerica o a quienes hacen investigaciones o trabajan en la region mesoamericana, de la siguiente informacion. Muchas gracias. * * * * Dear Colleagues: (Please pass this message on to appropriate colleagues) We request your help in informing biologist or conservationist colleagues throughout Mesoamerica (or who conduct research or work in the region) about the following information. Thank you very much. [note: if you would like to receive an English version of the following announcement, please reply to Oliver Komar at e-mail ookomar@cc.owu.edu] ******************************************** EL PRIMER CONGRESO DE LA SOCIEDAD MESOAMERICANA PARA LA BIOLOGIA Y LA CONSERVACION, 23-27 JUNIO 1997. El Primer Congreso de la Sociedad Mesoamericana para la Biologia y la Conservacion se llevara a cabo del 23 al 27 de junio de 1997, en la Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Honduras, Tegucigalpa, Honduras, Centroamerica. El programa incluye los siguientes simposios y talleres: * Declinaciones de las Poblaciones de Anfibios Mesoamericanos & Taller sobre Programas de su Monitoreo Organizado por Erik Lindquist, Dept. of Zoology, Ohio State University, Tel, 614-487-1980, fax 614-292-2030, e-mail lindquist.7@osu.edu * Taller sobre Fuentes y Mecanismos de Financiamiento para Programas de Conservacion. Organizado por Jim Barborak, The Wildlife Conservation Society, Gainesville, FL (USA), tel 352-371-1713, fax 352-373-6443, e-mail wcsfl@afn.org * Corredores Conservacionistas Organizado por Dr. Archie Carr III y Jim Barborak, The Wildlife Conservation Society, Gainesville, FL (USA), tel 352-371-1713, fax 352-373-6443, e-mail wcsfl@afn.org *Incorporando la Caceria de Subsistencia y las Cosechas Sostenidas en el Manejo de Vida Silvestre Organizado por Teresa Zun~iga, Amigos de la Tierra, Managua, Nicaragua, fax 505-222-7815, e-mail atenic@nicarao.apc.org *Taller sobre Ecologia y Manejo Sostenible de Aves Migratorias y Residentes en los Humedales en el Sur de Honduras Organizado por Dra. Becky Myton, Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Honduras, Tegucigalpa, tel 504-32-2110, ext. 170; fax 504-33-2210, e-mail bmyton@ns.unah.hondunet.net Estan programadas numerosas sesiones de ponencias abiertas o libres en donde exposiciones biologicas y de proyectos de conservacion pueden ser expuestas. Ademas habran una sala de carteles (posters). Resumenes deben ser entregados antes del *** 23 de MAYO de 1997 *** al coordinador del programa cientifico, Gustavo Adolfo Ruiz, Amigos de la Tierra, Apdo. T-55, Managua, Nicaragua, fax 505-222-7815, e-mail atenic@nicarao.apc.org. Instrucciones completas estan disponible sobre el internet, en la direccion http://iris.biosci.ohio-state.edu/borror/mesoamericana.html Para informacion de registracion y logistica consultarse con la direccion del internet dado por lo anterior, o contactarse con Gerardo Borjas, coordinador del comite organizativo local y presidente de la Sociedad, en Apdo. 30-357, Toncontin, Tegucigalpa, M D C, Honduras, tel. (504) 33-9576, e-mail gborjas@ns.unah.hondunet.net. Ademas, copias en papel del Paquete y Formulario de Inscripcion para el Congreso, que incluye tambien el formulario oficial del resumen, pueden ser solicitado antes del 10 de mayo de Oliver Komar, Editor, Mesoamericana, Department of Zoology, Ohio Wesleyan University, Delaware OH (USA) 43015, tel 614-369-0175, fax 614-368-3999, e-mail ookomar@cc.owu.edu. Inscripcion en el congreso es GRATIS para miembros de la Sociedad (ver informacion a continuacion sobre la membresia), si se inscriben al congreso antes del 23 de mayo de 1997. Para los que se inscriben tarde, hay un costo de $6 para profesionales y $3 para estudiantes. El costo es mayor ($40/$20) si se inscriben al llegar al congreso. Habra un banquete la noche de 23 de junio con costo adicional de US $25. Deben inscribir antes del 23 de mayo de 1997 para reservar una plaza en el banquete. *************************** La SOCIEDAD MESOAMERICANA PARA LA BIOLOGIA Y LA CONSERVACION existe para servir a profesionales trabajando y viviendo en la region mesoamericana (todo Centroamerica y Mexico). Dentro de las metas de la Sociedad son auspiciar un congreso anual, y publicar un boletin de noticias y otra informacion valiosa que se llama Mesoamericana. La mision es promover el intercambio de informacion, la investigacion y su difusion al servicio de la conservacion biologica y cultural en Mesoamerica. La Sociedad fue fundado en enero de 1996. LA MEMBRESIA La Sociedad cuenta con mayor de 50 miembros fundadores, y 100 miembros regulares. La membresia incluye asistencia gratis en el congreso anual, mantenerse informado como parte de la comunidad cientifica y conservacionista de la region mesoamericana, a traves de una subscripcion a Mesoamericana, el boletin oficial de la Sociedad, que es trimestral. Para tramitar la membresia, enviar un cheque o pago equivalente al enlace indicado. Las categorias de membresia son (con costo anual, en U.S. dolares): Membresia regular (residentes de la region): $ 10 Membresia de apoyo (individuos fuera de la region): $ 20 Membresia estudiantil (estudiantes de la region): $ 5 Membresia institucional (organizaciones de la region): $ 20 Membresia Institucional extranjera (organizaciones fuera de la region): $ 40 Miembro Fundador (individuos dentro o fuera de la region) $ 50 Fundador Institucional (organizaciones dentro de la region): $ 100 Fundador Institucional Extranjero (organizaciones fuera de la region): $200 Miembro Benefactor (individuo/institucion que desee colaborar con la mision y objetivos de la Sociedad): $ 200 Los Enlaces Nacionales: Honduras y paises no representados: Gerardo Borjas, President, Apdo. 30-357, Toncontin, Tegucigalpa MDC, Honduras tel: 504-33-9576 (e-mail: gborjas@ns.unah.hondunet.net) Belice: Bruce & Carolyn Miller, Gallon Jug, Belize (e-mail: galljug@btl.net) El Salvador: Juan Pablo Dominguez, Colonia Costa Rica, Calle Juan Mora #432, San Salvador. Tel. 503-270-0320 Nicaragua: Teresa Zun~iga, Apdo. Postal A-171, Managua, Nicaragua, C.A. (e-mail: atenic@nicarao.apc.org) U.S.A.: Oliver Komar, Dept. of Zoology, Ohio Wesleyan University, Delaware OH 43015 USA (e-mail ookomar@cc.owu.edu) ******************************************************* FIN/END From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Thu May 01 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!warwick!us1.rhbnc.ac.uk!news From: Mike Profit Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Larval competition amongst granivorous beetles.. Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 16:04:12 +0000 Organization: Royal Holloway, University of London Lines: 45 Message-ID: <336A107C.2544@sun.rhbnc.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc32.bl.rhbnc.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Dear All, I hope someone can help me, but I've finally drawn a blank... I'm just finishing a PhD on the population dynamics of stored legume beetle pests. I've been thru' the usual joys of PhD research, but I think I have found a previously undescribed phenomenon regarding larval competition strategies amongst granivorous insects. Unfortunately I cannot think of a suitable name for the observed behaviour. The situation is this.... Ovipositing females will select a host (one legume seed) and lay a single egg (females will generally hyperdisperse their eggs over the available seeds to minimise larval competition). The situation was such that the females could only oviposit on seeds already containing older larvae. I expected to find that the younger larvae would exhibit an extended development period and reduced weight (correlated with reduced fecundity). These two factors would have shown that there was a reduction in fitness for the younger larvae and I didn't know what the older larvae would exhibit. As it turns out, there appears to be two strategies exhibited by the younger larvae to cope with larval competition. Type a (for the sake of argument) exhibit a 'normal' development period (i.e. comparable to control larvae), but emerge from the seed weighing a lot less than controls. Type b larvae suffer delayed development (quiescense) until the older larvae pupate, they then continue their own development. The younger larvae then emerge weighing *much* more than the controls. There is obviously a trade-off going on here, either develop faster, but have fewer eggs to lay or delay development but have increased fecundity. Scientifically speaking this is quite important, I have left out a lot of the detail, but the problem is I need to call these a and b strategists something. I was thinking along the lines of the Red Queen Theory that used a charcter out of Alice in Wonderland. Unfortunately my knowledge of classical literature is not too good...(too much counting beetle eggs and surfing the net!). I wondered if anybody out there has any suggestions. If I have not explained anything particularly clearly please get in touch. Anybody with any ideas that I use will be duly acknowledged in the Thesis (I'll be submitting in the next few weeks). Thanking you profusely in advance (well done for making it this far!!!). Regards, Mike Profit -- m.profit@sun.rhbnc.ac.uk http://www.bl.rhbnc.ac.uk/bruchid.htm Males are always the lesser of two weevils From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Thu May 01 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!news.utdallas.edu!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nott!kone!news.ccs.queensu.ca!not-for-mail From: 4pfm@qlink.queensu.ca (Makepeace Paul F) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio,sci.bio.ecology,sci.environment,talk.environment Subject: Re: Rebuttals to overpopulation argument Date: 1 May 1997 17:46:21 GMT Organization: Queen's University, Kingston Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5kaktd$i0a@knot.queensu.ca> References: <3362B511.77BC@ilhawaii.net> <3364D8E6.16BE@ilhawaii.net> <5k5555$5dt@knot.queensu.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: qlink.queensu.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: biosci bionet.population-bio:2384 sci.bio.ecology:26907 sci.environment:107898 talk.environment:92863 JF. Howlett (jh5765@ncs.bris.ac.uk) wrote: : : : : The Canadian government can't even manage their east coast fisheries : : properly. : : : : That's an obvious case of conflict between the fishing industry and : conservation. However, I should make clear that this was not a problem : with conservation. Fish conservationists had made clear to the Canadian : authorities that the stocks were periously close to collapse, but the : politicians chose to give the industry the benefit of the doubt. A lesson : learned, and hopefully one which will not be repeated again. : No, it was a lot more complicated than the "obvious case" you summarized. Many politicians, such as Brian Peckford, as well as people within the dept. of fisheries and within the fishing industry saw the danger. But those ultimately in charge made the wrong choice. And history had proven time and time again that people do *not* learn from their mistakes. And this is now demonstrated by the fact that the Candadian govt is allowing the fisheries to reopen this summer despite great objections from a number of biologists. The floods in Quebec last year are another example of management of nature gone wrong. They tried to control and divert the river with dams, resulting in disaster. The management and power over nature should never be put in the hands of *fallible* humans. Humanity should never be given such power. Coexistence, where humans are considered to be a part of nature, is the only way. -- ************************************************************************* * Congrats to Jacques Villeneuve,winner of the '97 Brazilian Grand Prix!* * * * To learn about cohousing, check out http://www.cohousing.org * * * * Email: 4pfm@qlink.queensu.ca Web page: http://qlink.queensu.ca/~4pfm * ************************************************************************* From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Thu May 01 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!daresbury!uninett.no!nntp.uio.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!europa.clark.net!newsfeed2!usenet.logical.net!news.dal.ca!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!bignews.cycor.ca!cycor.ca From: abr485@cycor.ca (SHELDON ABRAMOVITCH) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: overpopulation.. Date: Sat, 19 Apr 97 04:02:28 -0400 Organization: C.I.I Lines: 8 Message-ID: <04-19-1997.99@cycor.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: mtl-as011.cycor.ca X-MKSIA-SN: Cycor 2.2 Dear whom ever this may concer, I am doing a research project on why we have to stop overpopulation..if any of you have articles ( I need articles ! ) or any info on this subject please e-mail them to me at : abr485@cycor.ca. Your response will be greatly appreciated ! Jessica From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Fri May 02 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news-peer.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: mthogerson@aol.com (MTHOGERSON) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: Rebuttals to overpopulation argument Date: 3 May 1997 02:09:12 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Lines: 56 Message-ID: <19970503020701.WAA23682@ladder01.news.aol.com> References: <33638769.66CA@xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader In article <33638769.66CA@xmission.com>, Tim Burns writes: >Since the sun provides huge amounts of energy, we will, as long as the >earth exists, have a ready supply of energy. It is only a matter of >need that will motivate people to find more efficient ways of >harnessing >that energy. The fundamental means of harnessing energy for human >consumption is growing food. So if it true that the energy is >limitless, >then it is also true that the supply of food is limitless. I have in >this >statement assumed that technological improvements will provide the >physical environments in which that food can be grown, and do not >think this is a bad assumption, given the cleverness of humans. Thus >if energy is limitless, then the supply of food is also limitless. > > This is a load of crap, and I will point out its fallacy. 1. The energy is not limitless; (a) it will end in 4-6 billion years when the sun goes nova; (b) if you are speaking of a measured amount of time, you can also measure the exact amount of solar radiation falling on the earth. Hence, if you can quantify it, it's not limitless. 2. Most of this measurable amount of solar energy is useless to plants; they can only convert about 0.1% of the VISIBLE spectrum (never mind LF radio waves and x-rays) to carbohydrates. Therefore, the amount of energy available to be converted is definitely in limited supply. 3. Roughly 70% of the earth's surface is ocean, and half of the remaining 30% is unsuitable for agriculture as we know it. Unfortunately, more and more people are crowding onto this arable land, and the amount of arable land is growing smaller even as populations are growing larger. 4. Intensive mechanized/chemical agriculture (a) tends to lay soil bare, making it easily eroded by wind and water, thus decreasing its availability and fertility, and (b) destroys the natural diversity of micro- and macro-organisms that built the soil and made it fertile to begin with. This means that we are letting fertile soil blow and wash away, and at the same time preventing it from rebuilding itself. Soil has been eroded and/or lost substantial fertility in major portions of the globe. Look at east Africa, much of India, and the portion of the Amazon rainforest that has been cut to turn it into agricultural land. The first two areas have such high densities of humans that the available land cannot, or will soon be unable to, support those populations. Mechanization and chemical fertilizers and biocides will not help these areas, they will only hasten eventual collapse because they feed the artificially eleveated populations temporarily. Mark Thogerson Biology Department Grand Valley State University Allendale, MI 49418 mthogerson@aol.com or thogersm@gvsu.edu CV home page: http://members.aol.com/mthogerson "Man occasionally stumbles over the truth, but he usually picks himself up and carries on." -- Winston Churchill From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Fri May 02 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!daresbury!uninett.no!nntp.uio.no!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ott.istar!news.istar.net!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!usenet From: msimpson@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Mark R. Simpson) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: CSZ '97 Annual Conference May 14-17: Important Message Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 14:12:21 GMT Organization: Eco-research Program, Memorial University of Nfld. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5kfh5m$hlt@coranto.ucs.mun.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: parryii.tri.mun.ca X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Canadian Society of Zoologists members and Confernce participants: As you prepare for our upcoming Annual Meeting at Western I would like to take this opportunity to remind you about the Silent Auction. As many of you are aware, at each Annual meeting we hold a Silent Auction of donated items to raise funds for student awards. So as you finish preparing your talk/poster please consider making a donation to the Silent Auction. Your contributions to the "Silent Auction" can be deposited at the Conference Registration desk when you arrive at Western. Thank you - and see you at Western. Mark Simpson. From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Sat May 03 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!feeder.chicago.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 08:06:49 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5khg2v$esu@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028028.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Why is everyone "up in arms" about whatexact point the "carrying-capacity" of the Earth is? Don't you know it doesn't really matter? If you look over a long enough period of time, "carrying-capacity" is never reached. It's like how no object every reaches the speed of light: once the Earth's population *approaches* the "carrying-capacity," the natural forces acting against any further increase in population (disease, famine, war, etc.) will be so great that the population will either (a) remain the same, or (b) diminish to a more sustainable level. It doesn't matter what we do. If we stop reproducing now, we won't have to worry about facing these extreme natural forces. But if we continue to reproduce exponentially, these natural forces will one day be part of our future. In any case, as long as we exist, we will never reach "carrying capacity." ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Sat May 03 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!not-for-mail From: brent@iastate.edu Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: 4 May 1997 18:49:06 GMT Organization: Iowa State University Lines: 29 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5kiln2$7uo$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lemming.aecl.iastate.edu X-Newsreader: In article <5khg2v$esu@news.acns.nwu.edu>, cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) writes: >Why is everyone "up in arms" about whatexact point the "carrying-capacity" of >the Earth is? Don't you know it doesn't really matter? > >If you look over a long enough period of time, "carrying-capacity" is never >reached. It's like how no object every reaches the speed of light: once the >Earth's population *approaches* the "carrying-capacity," the natural forces >acting against any further increase in population (disease, famine, war, etc.) >will be so great that the population will either (a) remain the same, or (b) >diminish to a more sustainable level. > >It doesn't matter what we do. If we stop reproducing now, we won't have to >worry about facing these extreme natural forces. But if we continue to >reproduce exponentially, these natural forces will one day be part of our >future. In any case, as long as we exist, we will never reach "carrying >capacity." > >------------------------------------------------------ >Carter Fields >University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) >Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) Carter, Can you say "time lag," it matters. Brent Danielson ISU - all day long From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 05 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!europa.clark.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 01:32:03 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5km1mt$e0a@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5kiln2$7uo$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028058.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <5kiln2$7uo$1@news.iastate.edu>, brent@iastate.edu wrote: >Carter, >Can you say "time lag," it matters. > >Brent Danielson >ISU - all day long Sure, you can buy yourself an extra millenium or so, but in geological time, it really doesn't matter. ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 05 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!daresbury!uninett.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!newsfeed.nacamar.de!uunet!in3.uu.net!198.53.145.10!news2.interlog.com!news.neca.com!not-for-mail From: sip94001@uconnvm.uconn.edu (Steven I. Pousty) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Field work in Israel Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:02:06 GMT Organization: Dept. of Ecology and Evol. Biology Lines: 38 Message-ID: <336f39ce.131438449@news.neca.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-ts4-199.neca.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 To all who are interested, Once again, I am looking for a field assistant in Israel. I will need the person from the second week in July until the end of August. I can offer housing and board but I can NOT pay for airfare to Israel (It appears that tickets are approx. $700 through discount brokerages). I may be able to afford a small salary (i.e. $25 /week) if a grant I applied for comes through. Work will consist of helping me in measuring spectral reflectance of soil crust and censusing terrestrial isopods (pillbugs, rolly pollies). The sites will be in the Negev desert so be prepared for VERY hot weather. We will be putting in long days and the hiking may be strenuous at times. At least five days of work will be expected. We will be based in Sde Boqer which is probably one of the safest places to be in Israel (far from Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza and in the middle of nowhere). Depending on religous preferences I can be flexible about which days are off (nothing runs on sat. in Israel). I know this doesn't sound very fun but it would be a good opportunity to get field experience and some experience in field techniques, using electronic surveying equipment and perhaps some GIS work (and you get room and board in Israel with the opportunity to explore on weekends. We will be relatively close to everything you might want to see, Israel is a small country). If you have any questions feel free to contact me through e-mail (it is the easiest and quickest method to get in touch with me). I can be flexible on the start date but the ending date is pretty firm. I am a fun guy and can provide many hours of interesting conversation in the field, so that should be reason enough to want to help me out, right? Thanks for your interest and sorry about the cross-posting. Sincerely, Steven Pousty sip94001@uconnvm.uconn.edu Dept. of Ecology and Evol. Biology Univ. of Conn. 860-486-4322 From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Tue May 06 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!dcs.st-and.ac.uk!steve From: steve@dcs.st-and.ac.uk (Steve Buckland) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Second Announcement - Wildlife Population Assessment Workshops Date: 7 May 1997 09:32:41 -0700 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 122 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net THREE INTERNATIONAL WORKSHOPS ON WILDLIFE POPULATION ASSESSMENT There are still places available on the following workshops: 1. Design and analysis of distance sampling surveys. ST Buckland and DL Borchers 2. An overview of capture-recapture models. KH Pollock and R Alpizar-Jara 3. The analysis of survival data from marked animal populations. JD Lebreton and BJT Morgan June 17 - 28 1997 To be held at University of St Andrews, Scotland, UK. **************************************************************************** DESIGN AND ANALYSIS OF DISTANCE SAMPLING SURVEYS June 17 - 20. COURSE INSTRUCTORS: Professor Steve Buckland and Dr David Borchers (Research Unit for Wildlife Population Assessment, University of St Andrews). INTENDED PARTICIPANTS: The workshop is intended for scientists who are carrying out population assessments of wildlife. We anticipate a mixture of marine and terrestrial mammalogists, ornithologists and fisheries biologists, plus statisticians who have an interest in the topic. WORKSHOP CONTENT: The workshop will concentrate primarily on line and point transect sampling methods. Although the basic theory will be covered, the focus of the workshop will be on practical application of the methods. Line and point transect sampling will be covered in detail in separate sessions. Field methods and survey design will be addressed. Participants will be taught how to use the software package DISTANCE and are thus encouraged to bring their own data sets for partial analysis on the course. Individual tuition will be given on the analysis of these data. Informal discussion groups will be established for participants with common interests or problems. **************************************************************************** AN OVERVIEW OF CAPTURE-RECAPTURE MODELS June 23 - 24. COURSE INSTRUCTORS: Professor Ken Pollock and Mr Russell Alpizar-Jara (North Carolina State University). INTENDED PARTICIPANTS: The course is primarily aimed at biologists who are interested in using capture-recapture methods and would also be of use as a first course for applied statisticians. We anticipate the same mixture of participants as for the Distance Sampling course. WORKSHOP CONTENT: The workshop will be an introductory overview of capture-recapture models and will include estimation of population size, survival rates and birth numbers. Sotfware packages CAPTURE, JOLLY and JOLLYAGE will be used. Topics will include: The Lincoln Petersen Model, Closed Models, Open Models, The Robust Design, Designing Capture-Recapture Studies and Applications. **************************************************************************** THE ANALYSIS OF SURVIVAL DATA FROM MARKED ANIMAL POPULATIONS June 25 - 28. COURSE INSTRUCTORS: Dr Jean-Dominique Lebreton (Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, Montpellier, France) and Professor Byron J T Morgan (University of Kent, UK). INTENDED PARTICIPANTS: The course is aimed at three sets of people: firstly, numerate and computer-literate biologists and ecologists; secondly, academics with graduate teaching or research interests in capture-recapture theory; and thirdly, biometricians working with biological population issues. Some familiarity with capture-recapture models (e.g. through attending the preceding workshop) is almost essential. WORKSHOP CONTENT: The workshop will provide a comprehensive approach to the analysis of survival data from marked animal populations. This will be achieved by introducing the participants to the theory and application of the latest capture-recapture methodology and by illustrating these methods with real data using the software RELEASE and SURGE for recaptures and resightings, and SURVIV and EAGLE for recoveries. **************************************************************************** For further information and registration forms, please send your name, mailing address and e-mail address to: Jane Cumberlidge (e-mail: jane@dcs.st-andrews.ac.uk) RUWPA Mathematical Institute North Haugh St Andrews Fife KY16 9SS SCOTLAND FAX: +44 (0)1334 463748 TEL: +44 (0)1334 463713 From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Tue May 06 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!daresbury!uninett.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!newsfeed.nacamar.de!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.152.0.23!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.cha.bellsouth.net!news.msy.bellsouth.net!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!not-for-mail From: brent@iastate.edu Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: 6 May 1997 12:54:04 GMT Organization: Iowa State University Lines: 54 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5kn9lc$rkn$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lemming.aecl.iastate.edu X-Newsreader: In article <5km1mt$e0a@news.acns.nwu.edu>, cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) writes: >In article <5kiln2$7uo$1@news.iastate.edu>, brent@iastate.edu wrote: > > >>Carter, >>Can you say "time lag," it matters. >> >>Brent Danielson >>ISU - all day long > > >Sure, you can buy yourself an extra millenium or so, but in geological time, >it really doesn't matter. > No, I think we are missing each other's point here. Lags can result in over shooting carrying capacity. When this happens, recovery to carrying capacity (K) can result in huge crashs taking the population far below K. Perhaps near enough to extinction that stochastic processes can finish the job. But, not to be concerned with simply Homo sapiens, what might the impact of such a lag on the environment, and would, indeed could, the earth's ecosystems correct to something similar to original conditions (with or without us, I don't really care)? It may not recover or return to "normal" conditions as you implied in your original post. A *millenium* worth of lag might allow, for a serious truly serious problems. Let's say, in ballpark figure's, that the human population is doubling every 40 yr. I think that is about right, but the details matter little. Without density dependence (ie given a lag in the population's response to density), in a millenium, we would have 1000/40 or 25 doublings. So, N*2^25 is a tad few. If that represents the number of doublings beyond carrying capacity, that sort of lag would put some serious strain on any ecosystem, however defined. Luckily, I doubt even we can postpone the inevitable a 1000 yrs from this point in time. But, personally, I doubt recovery, even in geo-time, would ever happen, not even close and certainly it would not be gentle. What the planet migh look like a in the geological future (how long is that anyway? Is 10,000 yrs enough?), is anyone's guess, but I wouldnt expect to see a whole lot of recognizable vertebrates (or any vertebrates given N*2^25). Brent Danielson >------------------------------------------------------ >Carter Fields >University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) >Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Thu May 08 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ELLENSBURG.COM!digress From: digress@ELLENSBURG.COM (Mike Pearson) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: How many? or "How we do it" Date: 9 May 1997 11:19:30 -0700 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 6 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9705091820.AA25713@ellensburg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Six billion humans now living -- that's good. Environment is limited, being catalogued -- that's fair. Most policy makers not taking it seriously -- that's bad. Private e-mail invited on this subject. Mike From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Thu May 08 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!daresbury!uninett.no!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!195.31.190.112!news.tin.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!usenet From: Francesco Poli Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: p Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 15:46:48 -0700 Organization: CheKKo SOFTWARE Lines: 1 Message-ID: <3373A958.5B6C@mbox.lognet.it> NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.99.151.37 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 [it] (Win16; I) p From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Thu May 08 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!daresbury!uninett.no!nntp.uio.no!nntp.sprintmail.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.aloha.net!news From: Jay Hanson Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 16:12:49 -1000 Organization: www.dieoff.org Lines: 97 Message-ID: <33728821.4CD47042@qmail.com> References: <5khg2v$esu@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: hawaii-5.u.aloha.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Carter Fields wrote: > Why is everyone "up in arms" about whatexact point the > "carrying-capacity" of > the Earth is? Don't you know it doesn't really matter? > > If you look over a long enough period of time, "carrying-capacity" is > never > reached. It's like how no object every reaches the speed of light: > once the Spoken like an economist! But wrong: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IN THE LANGUAGE OF ECOLOGY -- a language which it behooves us all to learn—the conditions of an imperiled environment are described in a few short and pungent words: 'drawdown,' 'overshoot,' 'crash,' and 'die-off.' "Drawdown is the process by which the dominant species in an ecosystem uses up the surrounding resources faster than they can be replaced and so ends up borrowing, in one form or another, from other places and other times. For our age, though the examples of such depletion are numerous, the most vivid is that of fossil fuels. In the space of a little more than a hundred years we have used up perhaps 80 percent of the buried remains of the Carboniferous period -- oil, gas, and coal—that were deposited over a period of a hundred million years or more, and what's more we have become totally dependent on continuing the process. One can argue about the due-date, but the outcome is certain. "Overshoot is the inevitable and irreversible consequence of continued drawdown, when the use of resources in an ecosystem exceeds its carrying capacity and there is no way to recover or replace what was lost. It takes many forms, depending on the system, but perhaps the clearest and in some ways the most touching is exemplified by Easter Island. When it was first settled a thousand years ago, the island was a rich and forested land covered with palms and a small native tree called the sophora, and on its sixty-four square miles a prosperous and literate culture developed organizational and engineering skills that enabled it to erect the famous massive stone statues all along the coastline. For reasons lost in time, the population of the island over the years increased to something like 4,000 people, apparently necessitating a steady drawdown of vegetation that eventually deforested the entire island and exhausted its fertile soils. Somewhere along the line came overshoot, unstoppable and final, and then presumably conflict over scarce food acreage, and ultimately warfare and chaos. By the time of Captain Cook's voyage to the island in the 1775 there were barely 630 people left, eking out a marginal existence; a hundred years later, only 155 islanders remained. "Crash, as with the Easter Islanders, is what happens after overshoot-- —a precipitate decline in species numbers. Once a population has exceeded the capacity of its environment in one life-giving respect or another, there is no recourse, nothing to be done until that population is reduced to the level at which the resources can recover and are once again adequate to sustain it. Take the case of the famous Irish potato famine. For well over a century, year after steady year, the British encouraged and the Irish developed a near-total dependency upon a single dietary mainstay, the potato, and the population of the island grew from 2 million people to more than 8 million. Then suddenly in 1845 a natural competitor for the potato came along in the form of a parasitic fungus that got to the tubers somewhat before the people did and turned the potatoes into sticky, inedible, mucous globs. Crash: within a generation the country was devastated, more than half the population died or emigrated, and those who remained were reduced to a poverty that diminished only a century later. "Die-off and, in its final form, die-out, is a phenomenon common in the history of zoology and botany, and the dodo and the passenger pigeon are not exceptional. There is, for example, the everyday but suggestive experience of yeast cells introduced into a wine vat. Enormously successful as a species, they gobble up nutrients from the sugary crushed grapes around them and expand their population without a thought to the consequences of drawdown; within weeks, however, the 'pollution' they produce -- alcohol and carbon dioxide, which of course is what the fermentation is all about—have so filled their environment that they are unable to survive. The resulting crash, in that vat at least, means an acute die-off and then extinction. "Where along this ecological trajectory can we locate the modern -- the theoretically sapient -- human?" [p.p. 24-26] DWELLERS IN THE LAND, by Kirkpatrick Sale; New Society Pub., 1991, Phone: 800-253-3605; ISBN 0-86571-225-5. See also: http://www.enews.com/magazines/discover/magtxt/080195-5.html http://www.netaxs.com/~trance/rapanui.html From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Fri May 09 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!feeder.chicago.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:22:47 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 53 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5l0ilj$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5kn9lc$rkn$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028044.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <5kn9lc$rkn$1@news.iastate.edu>, brent@iastate.edu wrote: > >No, I think we are missing each other's point here. Lags can result in over >shooting carrying capacity. When this happens, recovery to carrying capacity >(K) can result in huge crashs taking the population far below K. Perhaps near >enough to extinction that stochastic processes can finish the job. > Can you elaborate on "stochastic" process? I agree with you that a huge crash can occur if population gets very large, but I don't believe the crash is ever enough to cause extinction. Also, by my definition, the only time to know if carrying capacity is ever exceeded is after the species has become extinct. >But, not to be concerned with simply Homo sapiens, what might the impact of >such a lag on the environment, and would, indeed could, the earth's ecosystems >correct to something similar to original conditions (with or without us, I >don't really care)? It may not recover or return to "normal" conditions as you > >implied in your original post. > >A *millenium* worth of lag might allow, for a serious truly serious problems. >Let's say, in ballpark figure's, that the human population is doubling every 40 > >yr. I think that is about right, but the details matter little. Without >density dependence (ie given a lag in the population's response to density), in > >a millenium, we would have 1000/40 or 25 doublings. So, N*2^25 is a tad few. >If that represents the number of doublings beyond carrying capacity, that sort >of lag would put some serious strain on any ecosystem, however defined. >Luckily, I doubt even we can postpone the inevitable a 1000 yrs from this >point in time. > >But, personally, I doubt recovery, even in geo-time, would ever happen, not >even close and certainly it would not be gentle. What the planet migh look >like a in the geological future (how long is that anyway? Is 10,000 yrs >enough?), is anyone's guess, but I wouldnt expect to see a whole lot of >recognizable vertebrates (or any vertebrates given N*2^25). > >Brent Danielson > > Yes, but some forms of life would definitely remain...enough to start the whole evolution process over again. Alas, Mother Nature has kept us in check again! ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Fri May 09 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!feeder.chicago.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:18:19 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 90 Message-ID: <5l0id7$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5khg2v$esu@news.acns.nwu.edu> <33728821.4CD47042@qmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028044.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <33728821.4CD47042@qmail.com>, Jay Hanson wrote: >Spoken like an economist! But wrong: > Are you sure about that? Look at my responses below: SNIP >"Drawdown is the process by which the dominant species in an >ecosystem uses up the surrounding resources faster than they can >be replaced and so ends up borrowing, in one form or another, >from other places and other times. So what? We deplete one resource and move to another? > >"Overshoot is the inevitable and irreversible consequence of >continued drawdown, when the use of resources in an ecosystem >exceeds its carrying capacity and there is no way to recover or >replace what was lost. Again, so what? Move on to a new resource. > By the time of >Captain Cook's voyage to the island in the 1775 there were barely >630 people left, eking out a marginal existence; a hundred years >later, only 155 islanders remained. Thus, the carrying capacity for this island *at this point in time*. 155 is still more than zero! Once a >population has exceeded the capacity of its environment in one >life-giving respect or another, there is no recourse, nothing to >be done until that population is reduced to the level at which >the resources can recover and are once again adequate to sustain >it. Basic explanation of carrying capacity. >Take the case of the famous Irish potato famine. For well >over a century, year after steady year, the British encouraged >and the Irish developed a near-total dependency upon a single >dietary mainstay, the potato, and the population of the island >grew from 2 million people to more than 8 million. Then suddenly >in 1845 a natural competitor for the potato came along in the >form of a parasitic fungus that got to the tubers somewhat before >the people did and turned the potatoes into sticky, inedible, >mucous globs. Crash: within a generation the country was >devastated, more than half the population died or emigrated, and >those who remained were reduced to a poverty that diminished only >a century later. > Again, so what? The county is once again thriving. Life is much more resilient than you are making it out to be...as in Jurassic Park, "Life finds a way." >"Die-off and, in its final form, die-out, is a phenomenon common >in the history of zoology and botany, and the dodo and the >passenger pigeon are not exceptional. There is, for example, the >everyday but suggestive experience of yeast cells introduced into >a wine vat. Enormously successful as a species, they gobble up >nutrients from the sugary crushed grapes around them and expand >their population without a thought to the consequences of >drawdown; within weeks, however, the 'pollution' they >produce -- alcohol and carbon dioxide, which of course is what >the fermentation is all about—have so filled their environment >that they are unable to survive. The resulting crash, in that >vat at least, means an acute die-off and then extinction. I understand what you are trying to say...but none of your examples actually show extinction. The carrying capacity for each changes with changing environment (carrying capacity is never a fixed amount). Even the yeast cells are not extinct....chances are, there is at least one yeast cell remaining in that inhospitable environment (alcohol and CO2). As for us humans...once we have too large a population, some force (disease, famine, etc.) will wipe out a large chunk of us and return us to a more reasonable level. The only reason we should be concerned about exploding population is so that we can prevent the deterioration of our quality of life. There will always be some of us around, just a question of how many and in what conditions. ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Fri May 09 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!rutgers.rutgers.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!ais.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.aloha.net!news From: Jay Hanson Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 07:54:33 -1000 Organization: http://www.dieoff.org Lines: 63 Message-ID: <3374B659.E80E74AA@qmail.com> References: <5khg2v$esu@news.acns.nwu.edu> <33728821.4CD47042@qmail.com> <5l0id7$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: hawaii-109.u.aloha.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Carter Fields wrote: > >"Drawdown is the process by which the dominant species in an > >ecosystem uses up the surrounding resources faster than they can > >be replaced and so ends up borrowing, in one form or another, > >from other places and other times. > > So what? We deplete one resource and move to another? Once the Easter Islanders depleted their food -- including eating each other -- what resource did they "move on to"? Safeway? Once our ground water is depleted, what do you suggest we "move on to"? Diet Coke? I suggest that you do a little reading -- and thinking -- instead of just defending ideology. > > By the time of > >Captain Cook's voyage to the island in the 1775 there were barely > >630 people left, eking out a marginal existence; a hundred years > >later, only 155 islanders remained. > > Thus, the carrying capacity for this island *at this point in time*. > 155 is > still more than zero! So what? > Again, so what? The county is once again thriving. Life is much more > > resilient than you are making it out to be...as in Jurassic Park, > "Life finds > a way." Well, all of my arguments are based on the normative claim thatsociety should be organized to minimize human suffering. > As for us humans...once we have too large a population, some force > (disease, > famine, etc.) will wipe out a large chunk of us and return us to a > more > reasonable level. The only reason we should be concerned about > exploding > population is so that we can prevent the deterioration of our quality > of life. > There will always be some of us around, just a question of how many > and in > what conditions. Basically your normative claim is that human lives should besacrificed to your ideology of lassize faire. I think you are sick. Jay -- http://www.dieoff.org ------------------------------------------- Pluto (pluoo-toe) noun 1. Roman Mythology. The god of the dead and the ruler of the underworld. 2. American politics. The family of corporations that bought America's political sytsem. From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Fri May 09 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!daresbury!uninett.no!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.aloha.net!news From: Jay Hanson Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 07:59:31 -1000 Organization: http://www.dieoff.org Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3374B783.53017D72@qmail.com> References: <5kn9lc$rkn$1@news.iastate.edu> <5l0ilj$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: hawaii-109.u.aloha.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Carter Fields wrote: > Also, by my definition, the only time to know if carrying capacity is > ever > exceeded is after the species has become extinct. Did you just make this up? (The term has been defined by ecologists -- and this ain't it. You MUST be an economist! ) Jay -- http://www.dieoff.org ------------------------------------------- Pluto (pluoo-toe) noun 1. Roman Mythology. The god of the dead and the ruler of the underworld. 2. American politics. The family of corporations that bought America's political sytsem. From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Sat May 10 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!internet!biosci!not-for-mail From: biohelp (BIOSCI Administrator) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: BIOSCI/bionet miniFAQ & Fundraiser Date: 11 May 1997 02:00:19 -0700 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 239 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <199705110900.CAA23894@net.bio.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net (LAST REVISION: 30-JUL-95) This BIOSCI "miniFAQ" is designed to answer the questions that come up the *most frequently*. The main BIOSCI FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) is accessible on the World Wide Web at URL http://www.bio.net/. If you can not find an answer to your question in this or other documentation, the BIOSCI technical support staff answers e-mail queries sent to biosci-help@net.bio.net We can only answer questions about the use of the newsgroups and mailing lists. We unfortunately do not have the staff to do Internet information searches or answer scientific questions. Please post those to the appropriate BIOSCI/bionet newsgroups. Contents: -------- 0) BIOSCI NEEDS YOUR SUPPORT!! 1) Using the WWW to access the BIOSCI/bionet newsgroups. 2) What to do about "spams," i.e., junk mail, ads, etc. 3) Examples of subscribing and unsubscribing to the mailing lists. 4) The BIOSCI user address and research interest directory. 0) BIOSCI NEEDS YOUR SUPPORT!! ------------------------------ BIOSCI's government funding has been expended, and we are now operating solely from advertising revenue that we have raised from our Web site at http://www.bio.net/. We need just a few minutes of your time to help us serve you. You can do two important things which will take very little time for you individually and will immensely help us continue to help you. First, please use our WWW system at http://www.bio.net/ to access the archives. You can post or reply to messages via your Web browser as described in item #1 below. Your usage helps attract sponsors. If you contact any of our sponsors, please be sure to thank them for supporting BIOSCI. It is critical for them to get this feedback if they are to continue their sponsorship for the long term. Second, if you work for a company or organization that provides products or services of interest to the biology community, please pass this message on to your marketing or marketing communications department or other appropriate group. Please ask them to help support BIOSCI by sponsoring our Web site and explain the uses and benefits of the system to the biology community. If they are interested, they can then contact us for further information at our tech support address, biosci-help@net.bio.net. 1) Using the WWW to access the BIOSCI/bionet newsgroups. -------------------------------------------------------- As of 10 December 1995, all BIOSCI/bionet full newsgroups are accessible through the World Wide Web (WWW) at URL http://www.bio.net. One can read and reply publicly or privately to both recent postings and archived messages through one's Web browser if it is configured properly to send e-mail. Each newsgroup is equipped with its own WAIS index. The main BIOSCI home page also has access to the BIO-JOURNALS Table of Contents database WAIS index and the BIOSCI user address database described in another item further below. 2) What to do about "spams," i.e., junk mail, ads, etc. ------------------------------------------------------- BIOSCI is a set of parallel USENET newsgroups (the "bionet" groups), mailing lists, and a hypermail archive at URL http://www.bio.net/. The same postings are distributed on all media (except for a small number of mailing-list-only groups at net.bio.net). Unfortunately it is becoming a despicable practice on the Internet (by a few people out to make a fast buck) to do automated mass postings to thousands of newsgroups and mailing lists. These attempts to grab free advertising are refered to as "spams" in the usual, somewhat boneheaded, net terminology. USENET is more susceptible to this practice, and many spams originate on the USENET groups and then are passed on to the mailing lists. However, spammers also get lists of mailing addresses and hit these too, so neither medium is immune. What should you do personally if you get junk mail? --------------------------------------------------- Just delete it and move on without reading it further. Filing a protest is becoming increasingly useless because spammers are often disguising the addresses where the messages are sent from. Unless you really understand Internet mail systems, your attempt at protest by sending replies to the message will often end up being sent to the address of an innocent person that the spammer is victimizing. What can BIOSCI/bionet do to protect its newsgroups? ---------------------------------------------------- The only solution currently available is to moderate the newsgroup. If this newsgroup is already moderated, then you are in good shape. Moderation protects the USENET distribution from about 95% of the spams that are being sent to date and protects the mailing lists completely. Moderation means, however, that someone has to take the time to review each message before it goes out. We have set up software here that simply allows the moderator to forward to an address at net.bio.net messages that (s)he wishes to have distributed. This takes no more time than that needed to read the message and pass it on, say about 1 min. per message. Most newsgroups currently have a discussion leader who is responsible for their newsgroup. The discussions leaders and their e-mail addresses are listed in the BIOSCI Information Sheet which is available on the Web at http://www.bio.net/. If a newsgroup is being hit with too many junk postings, please contact the discussion leader for that group and see if there is interest in moderating the group. Please do not assume that by simply posting a complaint to the newsgroup itself, anyone on the BIOSCI staff will act on your complaint. With close to 100 newsgroups to run, the BIOSCI staff has to rely on the discussion leaders of each newsgroup to report problems directly to us at biosci-help@net.bio.net. We will moderate any of our newsgroups if the discussion leader tells us that the readership of the group wishes to do so and if a moderator is willing to do the work. For most BIOSCI/bionet groups, this entails only a few minutes of work each day. Moderating a newsgroup will resolve probably 95% of the junk postings on the USENET distribution. Unfortunately there are easy ways for determined spammers to override the moderation mechanism on USENET, but we can protect our e-mail subscribers from unwanted postings if the newsgroup is moderated. You can also access our newsgroups over the WWW at URL http://www.bio.net. While this Web interface will not stop spammers from trying to post to the groups, this will give you yet another way, besides using USENET news, to keep the junk out of your personal mail files. For those of you with local USENET news systems, the Web interface will also give you faster access to new newsgroups and recent postings. 3) Examples of subscribing and unsubscribing to the mailing lists. ------------------------------------------------------------------ PLEASE NOTE: The BIOSCI management does NOT act on subscription/unsubscription requests that are posted improperly to the newsgroups and mailing lists. People who do this only bother everyone on the lists to no avail. Please be sure to follow the proper procedures below. Gory details are in the BIOSCI Information sheets on the Web at http://www.bio.net. Below we give an example utilizing the METHODS-AND-REAGENTS list at both of our two BIOSCI sites: Users in the Americas and Pacific Rim countries who use the BIOSCI ------------------------------------------------------------------ node at computer net.bio.net: ---------------------------- A) Determine the "listname" which is the <=8 character mail address ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ for the group. These can be found in the BIOSCI Info. Sheet. For the METHODS-AND-REAGENTS group the mailing address is methods@net.bio.net. The listname is the portion of the address to the left of the @ sign, i.e., "methods". The listname is used with the "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" commands illustrated below. B) Mail all commands in the body of a mail message addressed to biosci-server@net.bio.net. Do NOT send commands to the newsgroup posting addresses! Leave the Subject: line blank, any text on it will be ignored. C) In the body of your message put one or more of the following commands with an "end" command on the last line, e.g., subscribe methods unsubscribe methods end Do NOT put your e-mail address or other text on these lines. The server only allows you to cancel your subscription if the address on your mail header matches the address on our mailing list. Please ask for help at biosci-help@net.bio.net if your address has changed, e.g., if you know you are on the list but the server tells you that you are not a member. Users in Europe, Africa, and Central Asia who use the BIOSCI node at -------------------------------------------------------------------- computer daresbury.ac.uk (also known as dl.ac.uk): ------------------------------------------------- To subscribe and unsubscribe to/from the BIOSCI lists, you need to specify the full USENET newsgroup name with "bionet-news." prepended. The USENET newsgroup names are listed in the BIOSCI Information sheet on the Web at http://www.bio.net/. For the METHODS-AND-REAGENTS list the USENET newsgroup name is bionet.molbio.methds-reagnts, thus the appropriate commands are sub bionet-news.bionet.molbio.methds-reagnts unsub bionet-news.bionet.molbio.methds-reagnts These commands are included in a message addressed to mxt@dl.ac.uk, NOT to the newsgroup mailing addresses. As usual, include the text in the body of the message as text on the Subject: line is ignored. To unsubscribe from all the lists at the UK node, use unsub bionet-news Please note that if the address in the list is different than the one in your mail message header, you will not be able to unsubscribe by this method. If you have problems, please mail biosci@daresbury.ac.uk. 4) The BIOSCI user address and research interest directory. ----------------------------------------------------------- Please take this opportunity to add your name, address, and research interest information to the BIOSCI User Address Database if you have not already done so. You can fill out the address form directly through our Web page at URL http://www.bio.net/adrform.html. The address database is reindexed nightly for WWW access (the URL is http://www.bio.net/). If you are not directly on the Internet but can reach it by e-mail, please use our waismail server to access the user directory. waismail use is described above. You can also request a user address form by e-mail from biosci-help@net.bio.net. Please check your database entry from time-to-time to see if your address information is still up-to-date. Because of our limited personnel resources, we ask that you resubmit a *complete* form to revise your entry; we only replace complete entries and do not have resources to edit old forms. Sincerely, Dave Kristofferson BIOSCI/bionet Manager biosci-help@net.bio.net From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Sun May 11 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.nether.net!chi-news.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 02:05:54 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5l5tuc$eoo@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5khg2v$esu@news.acns.nwu.edu> <33728821.4CD47042@qmail.com> <5l0id7$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3374B659.E80E74AA@qmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028040.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <3374B659.E80E74AA@qmail.com>, Jay Hanson wrote: >Once the Easter Islanders depleted their food -- including eating >each other -- what resource did they "move on to"? Safeway? > No. If one food source is depleted, they move onto another...or, they adapt through time to be able to eat another. If not, THEN they die off. >Once our ground water is depleted, what do you suggest we >"move on to"? Diet Coke? No. When our ground water is "depleted," people will die off. Once the number of people has returned to a reasonable level, there will be enough water to survive on. (BTW, I know you are saying, "but where did the water come from?" I am assuming water is an infinitely renewable resouce...rain, glaciers, combustion, etc.) >I suggest that you do a little reading -- and thinking -- instead >of just defending ideology. > Isn't defending an ideology part of thinking? And surely you aren't suggesting that I don't read? Come on. >Well, all of my arguments are based on the normative claim thatsociety >should be organized to minimize human suffering OK. And....? >Basically your normative claim is that human lives should besacrificed >to your ideology of lassize faire. I think you are sick. > Sacraficed? No. Naturally selected to live or die? Yes. I may be sick, but I am alive and surviving just fine. ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Sun May 11 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.nether.net!chi-news.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 02:09:10 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5l5u4g$eoo@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5kn9lc$rkn$1@news.iastate.edu> <5l0ilj$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3374B783.53017D72@qmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028040.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <3374B783.53017D72@qmail.com>, Jay Hanson wrote: >Carter Fields wrote: > >> Also, by my definition, the only time to know if carrying capacity is >> ever >> exceeded is after the species has become extinct. > >Did you just make this up? > >(The term has been defined by ecologists -- and this ain't it. You >MUST be an economist! ) > >Jay -- http://www.dieoff.org Jay, you need to open up your mind a little bit here. Yes, I made up the above definition of "carrying capacity." Yes, I know that certain ecologists have defined *their* version of "carrying capacity." What makes that definition abosolute and true? No, I am not an economist...I am a molecular geneticist. Tell me this, Jay. If our species were to reach "carrying capacity," would YOU know it? If so, how? ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Sun May 11 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ELLENSBURG.COM!digress From: digress@ELLENSBURG.COM (Mike Pearson) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: (no subject) Date: 11 May 1997 20:46:47 -0700 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 34 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9705120348.AA13426@ellensburg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net > In article <33638769.66CA@xmission.com>, Tim Burns > > writes: > > >Since the sun provides huge amounts of energy, we will, as long as > the > >earth exists, have a ready supply of energy. It is only a matter of > >need that will motivate people to find more efficient ways of > >harnessing > >that energy. The fundamental means of harnessing energy for human > >consumption is growing food. So if it true that the energy is > >limitless, It's not limitless. Technical development and economic distribution of energy are problems which limit energy available to us, even before considering whether we can keep up with demand without causing Greenhouse or other atmospheric/ biosphere problems. M.Thogerson wrote: >Look at east Africa, much of India, and the portion of > Amazon rainforest that has been cut to turn it into agricultural > land.The first two areas have such high densities of humans that >the available land cannot, or will soon be unable to support > those populations. Tragic. From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Sun May 11 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ELLENSBURG.COM!digress From: digress@ELLENSBURG.COM (Real name) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: 11 May 1997 20:22:52 -0700 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 24 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9705120324.AA13198@ellensburg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net At 02:09 AM 5/12/97 GMT, Carter Fields wrote: >No, I am not an economist...I am a molecular geneticist. Will you agree human population biology (as you have been discussing on this list) uses very little of molecular genetics? Did you read the work of the life-long career human population biologists? Jay Hanson's site has them. It's easy to grandstand against science, which requires patient and thorough study. Straw-man arguments are a waste of time and beneath your profession as a scientist. Mike Pearson www.ellensburg.com/~digress "We recognize that there are no trivial occurrences in life if we get the right focus on them." -- Mark Twain, 1906 quoted in _Susy and Mark Twain: Family Dialogues_ arranged and edited by Edith Colgate Salsbury From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Sun May 11 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ELLENSBURG.COM!digress From: digress@ELLENSBURG.COM (Real name) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: 11 May 1997 20:13:57 -0700 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 23 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9705120315.AA13111@ellensburg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Jay Hanson wrote: >>Well, all of my arguments are based on the normative claim that society >>should be organized to minimize human suffering.. Excellent....surely this is in the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States...* directly and indirectly.* It's amazing that universities, funded by taxpayers, do not promote this principle you mentioned as the very centerpiece of their arts and sciences, business and all. To minimize human suffering is another way of saying Make the Most of Life! www.ellensburg.com/~digress "We recognize that there are no trivial occurrences in life if we get the right focus on them." -- Mark Twain, 1906 quoted in _Susy and Mark Twain: Family Dialogues_ arranged and edited by Edith Colgate Salsbury From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Sun May 11 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!europa.clark.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.nether.net!chi-news.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!ground0 From: _jamey@nwu.edu_ (James Patrick Klock) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Mon, 12 May 97 22:06:21 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Dental School Lines: 39 Message-ID: <5l848u$eli@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5khg2v$esu@news.acns.nwu.edu> <33728821.4CD47042@qmail.com> <5l0id7$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3374B659.E80E74AA@qmail.com> <5l5tuc$eoo@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ground0.nuds.nwu.edu X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #2 In article <5l5tuc$eoo@news.acns.nwu.edu>, cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) wrote: >(BTW, [...] I am assuming water is an infinitely renewable >resouce...rain, glaciers, combustion, etc.) Ultimately a factual statement, but you don't take into account the distinction between water per se and potable, useful water. Rain is no longer neccesarily potable water, and so requires an additional, frequently prohibitive, expenditure of energy to be usable. Combustion produces not water, but water vapor, which ultimately becomes rain. The CO2 and other frequent by-products of water again make that rain non-potable, with a potentially prohibitive amount of treatment needed to make that water useful to animals. Glaciers, meanwhile, are a resource renewed, like fossil fuels, at a geological rate. To keep the resource renewable requires to usage rates not exceed that rate of generation. I don't have any figures on rates of new glaciation in front of me, but I personally doubt it's enough water to supply any substantial animal population. >When our ground water is "depleted," people will die off. Once the >number of people has returned to a reasonable level, there will be enough >water to survive on. If you have no problem with the die-off of a substantial portion of the ecosphere which could potentially be prevented with a modicum of preparation and effort, well, that's between you and your moral structure. >Naturally selected to live or die? Yes. I may be sick, but >I am alive and surviving just fine. I am reminded of a description I recently heard of Objectivism summed up in six words: "Screw you, Jack, I got mine!" -- James Patrick Klock jamey@nwu.edu Computer and Network Administrator NU Dental School finger _jpk035@merle.acns.nwu:edu_ for PGP Public Key Key to Anti-Spam(TM): remove any _ and : From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Sun May 11 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!chi-news.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!ground0 From: _jamey@nwu.edu_ (James Patrick Klock) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Mon, 12 May 97 21:47:31 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Dental School Lines: 10 Message-ID: <5l835j$eli@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5kn9lc$rkn$1@news.iastate.edu> <5l0ilj$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3374B783.53017D72@qmail.com> <5l5u4g$eoo@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ground0.nuds.nwu.edu X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #2 In article <5l5u4g$eoo@news.acns.nwu.edu>, cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) wrote: >Yes, I know that certain ecologists >have defined *their* version of "carrying capacity." What makes that >definition abosolute and true? The conventional defination of carrying capacity is not absolute and true. It does, however, benefit from a certain degree of consensus, which grants it a semantic value lacking in your *personal* definition of carrying capacity. It is that consensus which allows scientists (and laymen) to understand one another. From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Sun May 11 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!webtv.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.239.17.140!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!umass.edu!hydra.umb.edu!kerala.bio.umb.edu!user From: orrell@umbsky.cc.umb.edu (Lelia C. Orrell) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: ISO: Field Emitter Array for Nematodes Date: 12 May 1997 11:36:49 GMT Organization: Department of Biology, UMass/Boston Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: kerala.bio.umb.edu At Solange Brault's lab in the Biology Department at UMass Boston, we hope to use a field emitter array (with microemitters perhaps 10 micrometers or more in height) to inject materials into nematodes, whose cuticles are pierced by the sharp points. Being on a tight budget, we hope to find someone who has perhaps an imperfect FEA (no gate needed, of course) that they would be willing to loan or give us. We'd be happy to reimburse shipping charges. We would greatly appreciate any assistance or leads which someone could make available to us. -- Lelia C. Orrell Elliston Farm (Floriculture) & Department of Biology, University of Massachusetts Boston orrell@umbsky.cc.umb.edu http://www.nmia.com/~lelia From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Sun May 11 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!knoxy.agvic.gov.au!hamiltona From: hamiltona@knoxy.agvic.gov.au ("Andrew Hamilton") Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: 12 May 1997 15:52:25 -0700 Organization: Dept. of Agriculture (Vic). Lines: 8 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Please note, By definition it is not possible to exceed K. If you look at the different equations for population growth you will realize that K defines an asymptote so please, nobody talk about exceeding K or relating this to extinction etc. etc.. Please feel free to talk about approaching K but not exceeding it, otherwise we might as well just ignore basic mathematical rules. Andrew. From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news.aloha.net!news From: Jay Hanson Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:36:07 -1000 Organization: http://www.dieoff.org Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3377D397.F8DC55@qmail.com> References: <5khg2v$esu@news.acns.nwu.edu> <33728821.4CD47042@qmail.com> <5l0id7$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3374B659.E80E74AA@qmail.com> <5l5tuc$eoo@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: hawaii-112.u.aloha.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Carter Fields wrote: > >Basically your normative claim is that human lives should besacrificed > >to your ideology of lassize faire. I think you are sick. > Sacraficed? No. Naturally selected to live or die? Yes. I may be sick, but > I am alive and surviving just fine. "Naturally selected" to live or die? This is a good one -- naturally selected by who? Is it "natural" that the Chairman of General Motors should select which members of your family should live or die? Is that what you mean? Jay -- http://www.dieoff.org ------------------------------------------- Pluto (pluoo-toe) noun 1. Roman Mythology. The god of the dead and the ruler of the underworld. 2. American politics. The family of corporations that bought America's political sytsem. From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!bcm.tmc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!azure.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!news.ox.ac.uk!news From: Darren Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Modern Nautilus Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:10:26 +0100 Organization: University of Oxford Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3378A082.446B9B3D@earth.ox.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: piglet.earth.ox.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3 sun4c) HI I am after some modern Nautilus shells. Can anyone provide any help, as I need some as part of my PhD research. Cheers Darren Grocke University of Oxford From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!MIT.EDU!eccher From: eccher@MIT.EDU (Elizabeth Eccher) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Moving from Almaden to BBN Date: 13 May 1997 06:49:59 -0700 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 84 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9705131349.AA21345@MIT.MIT.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net >Starting tomorrow, my new e-mail address is kornai@bbn.com. > >Andras Kornai Nice try Andras, but this message isn't enough. You need to unsubcribe under you current (soon to expire) email address, and resubscribe under the new one, once the latter is active. All this administrative stuff goes through the listserv, not the mailing list itself. See the info below for details, paying special attention to the last paragraph. And next time, SAVE THE INITIAL MESSAGE YOU RECEIVE when you sign on -- this is IMPORTANT documentation. ***************************************************** Note that subscription info goes to LISTSERV and mail for other readers goes to WISENET. To subscribe to WISENET send mail to LISTSERV@listserv.uic.edu The mail should include a single line as follows: SUBSCRIBE WISENET yourname ^^^^^^^^ replace with your first and last name To stop or cancel a subscription: send mail to the same address LISTSERV@listserv.uic.edu SIGNOFF WISENET Note that signoff mail MUST come from the same userid AND node that is subscribed. For periods when you are vacationing or very busy you can send the one line command SET WISENET NOMAIL and reverse it later with SET WISENET MAIL These keep your subscription but mark it to not send or send as indicated. 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If your mail is returned, we have no choice but to terminate the subscription or set it to NOMAIL. Harriet L. Coleman HColeman@uic.edu Library Systems Coordinator U35049@uicvm.uic.edu University of Illinois at Chicago 312.996.3850 ************************************************************** Regards, Elizabeth ==================================================================== Elizabeth Eccher Phone: (617) 253-6623 Ford Development Asst. Prof. of Accounting FAX: (617) 253-0603 MIT/Sloan School of Management email: eccher@MIT.EDU 50 Memorial Drive, E52-325F Cambridge, MA 02142 ==================================================================== From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.uiowa.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!not-for-mail From: brent@iastate.edu Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: 13 May 1997 12:19:08 GMT Organization: Iowa State University Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5l9m7s$2bv$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lemming.aecl.iastate.edu X-Newsreader: In article , hamiltona@knoxy.agvic.gov.au ("Andrew Hamilton") writes: >Please note, >By definition it is not possible to exceed K. If you look at the >different equations for population growth you will realize that K >defines an asymptote so please, nobody talk about exceeding K or >relating this to extinction etc. etc.. Please feel free to talk >about approaching K but not exceeding it, otherwise we might as well >just ignore basic mathematical rules. > Andrew. Andrew, you need to go back to your books and study them a bit closer. Pay special attention to the discussion of lags. You will find it is quite easy to exceed "K", and it happens all the time. Brent Danielson From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ALMADEN.IBM.COM!kornai From: kornai@ALMADEN.IBM.COM (Andras Kornai) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Moving from Almaden to BBN Date: 13 May 1997 06:14:30 -0700 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 3 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9705131313.AA23250@sevengill.almaden.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net Starting tomorrow, my new e-mail address is kornai@bbn.com. Andras Kornai From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news.aloha.net!news From: Jay Hanson Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:31:56 -1000 Organization: http://www.dieoff.org Lines: 40 Message-ID: <3377D29C.A22B2AEA@qmail.com> References: <5kn9lc$rkn$1@news.iastate.edu> <5l0ilj$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3374B783.53017D72@qmail.com> <5l5u4g$eoo@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: hawaii-112.u.aloha.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) >>>Carter Fields wrote: >>> Also, by my definition, the only time to know if carrying capacity is >>> ever exceeded is after the species has become extinct. >>In article <3374B783.53017D72@qmail.com>, Jay Hanson wrote: >>Did you just make this up? >Carter Fields wrote: >Jay, you need to open up your mind a little bit here. Yes, I made up the >above definition of "carrying capacity." Yes, I know that certain ecologists >have defined *their* version of "carrying capacity." What makes that >definition abosolute and true? Your version is not important, theirs is. >Tell me this, Jay. If our species were to reach "carrying capacity," would >YOU know it? If so, how? Carrying capacity is the maximum load that can be exerted on a life support system by a population of animals without damaging the system itself. Now that you have the correct definition, perhaps you can figure it out for yourself. Jay -- http://www.dieoff.org ------------------------------------------- Pluto (pluoo-toe) noun 1. Roman Mythology. The god of the dead and the ruler of the underworld. 2. American politics. The family of corporations that bought America's political sytsem. From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!bcm.tmc.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.clark.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!chi-news.cic.net!news.uiowa.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!not-for-mail From: brent@iastate.edu Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: 12 May 1997 22:20:53 GMT Organization: Iowa State University Lines: 93 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5l8545$dud$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lemming.aecl.iastate.edu X-Newsreader: In article <5l0ilj$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu>, cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) writes: >In article <5kn9lc$rkn$1@news.iastate.edu>, brent@iastate.edu wrote: > > >> >>No, I think we are missing each other's point here. Lags can result in over >>shooting carrying capacity. When this happens, recovery to carrying capacity >>(K) can result in huge crashs taking the population far below K. Perhaps near >>enough to extinction that stochastic processes can finish the job. >> >Can you elaborate on "stochastic" process? I agree with you that a huge crash >can occur if population gets very large, but I don't believe the crash is ever >enough to cause extinction. > >Also, by my definition, the only time to know if carrying capacity is ever >exceeded is after the species has become extinct. Well, certainly, that is a very unique definition of carrying capacity, and if you stick with it, then we are really discussing apples and gomphotheres. But what I was getting at by stochastic processes is simply that when a population becomes very small, for whatever reason, there is some non-zero chance that the population will become extinct due to random events. This can be complicated by nonrandom processes that further increase the probability that small populations become extinct (e.g., Allee-effect). Certainly extinction could occur. The probability of single such crash resulting in extinction is quite small, but how small is small enough when you are talking about something as permanent as extinction? Stochastic extinction following a crash is not my leading reason for avoiding population crises caused by the substantial overshoots of carrying capacity that result from long temporal lags, between increasing density and the onset of density dependence from that increase. See below. >>But, personally, I doubt recovery, even in geo-time, would ever happen, not >>even close and certainly it would not be gentle. What the planet migh look >>like a in the geological future (how long is that anyway? Is 10,000 yrs >>enough?), is anyone's guess, but I wouldnt expect to see a whole lot of >>recognizable vertebrates (or any vertebrates given N*2^25). >> >>Brent Danielson >> >> >Yes, but some forms of life would definitely remain...enough to start the >whole evolution process over again. Alas, Mother Nature has kept us in check >again! You are probably (and only probably, as opposed to certainly) right. Life might go on, and if not, it might even re-evolve. But does that justify the extermination of more forms of life than we can ever hope to count? I think not. That is a personal and inarguable ethical position. If you feel that all is ethical and just hunky-dory if life, in some form, persists, then you have all but carte blanc when it comes to what is ethically inbounds. If this discussion devolves into one of ethics, it immediately become uninteresting. However, even given so extreme a position as "only life in some form is required to remain within the bounds of what's ethical," it is not totally unreasonable to assume that we might destroy even that. The magnitude of the impact that we, as a species, will have upon this planet before we blink out of the evolutionary picture, might be sufficient to push the globe into a new "steady state" that is incompatible with life. There are, after all, lots of places "nearby" that seem to have no life at all. Life somewhere is inevitable, but life everywhere is not. Of course, I really have no idea of what it would take to simply dispose of the atmosphere entirely, nor do I know what it would take to turn the entire surface into a Mars-like environment (I am half seriously working on it for some obscure reason). But, it is of little consequence to me in as much as I find the degree of environmental destruction that we have already done to be totally unethical, never mind going to this sort of extreme. There is, however, a good argument in inducing a little crash now, rather than later. The sooner the better I think, I'll let you know when I'm finished with the math. :) Brent Brent@iastate.edu 515.294.5248 http://www.public.iastate.edu/~codi/ Dept. Animal Ecology, 124 Science II, Iowa State University, Ames, IA 50011 :::::::::::::::::: This is what you shall do: love the earth and the sun and the animals. Stand up for the stupid and the crazy. Take your hat off to no man. - E.A. 5 Dec. 1962 From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!feeder.chicago.cic.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.uiowa.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!not-for-mail From: brent@iastate.edu Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: 12 May 1997 22:17:18 GMT Organization: Iowa State University Lines: 62 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5l84te$umk$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lemming.aecl.iastate.edu X-Newsreader: In article <5l0ilj$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu>, cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) writes: >In article <5kn9lc$rkn$1@news.iastate.edu>, brent@iastate.edu wrote: > > >> >>No, I think we are missing each other's point here. Lags can result in over >>shooting carrying capacity. When this happens, recovery to carrying capacity >>(K) can result in huge crashs taking the population far below K. Perhaps near >>enough to extinction that stochastic processes can finish the job. >> >Can you elaborate on "stochastic" process? I agree with you that a huge crash >can occur if population gets very large, but I don't believe the crash is ever >enough to cause extinction. > >Also, by my definition, the only time to know if carrying capacity is ever >exceeded is after the species has become extinct. > > >>But, not to be concerned with simply Homo sapiens, what might the impact of >>such a lag on the environment, and would, indeed could, the earth's ecosystems >>correct to something similar to original conditions (with or without us, I >>don't really care)? It may not recover or return to "normal" conditions as you >> >>implied in your original post. >> >>A *millenium* worth of lag might allow, for a serious truly serious problems. >>Let's say, in ballpark figure's, that the human population is doubling every 40 >> >>yr. I think that is about right, but the details matter little. Without >>density dependence (ie given a lag in the population's response to density), in >> >>a millenium, we would have 1000/40 or 25 doublings. So, N*2^25 is a tad few. >>If that represents the number of doublings beyond carrying capacity, that sort >>of lag would put some serious strain on any ecosystem, however defined. >>Luckily, I doubt even we can postpone the inevitable a 1000 yrs from this >>point in time. >> >>But, personally, I doubt recovery, even in geo-time, would ever happen, not >>even close and certainly it would not be gentle. What the planet migh look >>like a in the geological future (how long is that anyway? Is 10,000 yrs >>enough?), is anyone's guess, but I wouldnt expect to see a whole lot of >>recognizable vertebrates (or any vertebrates given N*2^25). >> >>Brent Danielson >> >> >Yes, but some forms of life would definitely remain...enough to start the >whole evolution process over again. Alas, Mother Nature has kept us in check >again! > >------------------------------------------------------ >Carter Fields >University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) >Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news.aloha.net!news From: Jay Hanson Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:42:23 -1000 Organization: http://www.dieoff.org Lines: 43 Message-ID: <3377D50F.387A01BE@qmail.com> References: <9705120315.AA13111@ellensburg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hawaii-112.u.aloha.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Real name wrote: > > Jay Hanson wrote: > > >>Well, all of my arguments are based on the normative claim that society > >>should be organized to minimize human suffering.. > > Excellent....surely this is in the Preamble to the Constitution of the > United States...* directly and indirectly.* It's amazing that universities, > funded by taxpayers, do not promote this principle you mentioned > as the very centerpiece of their arts and sciences, business and all. I think you are right about the intent of the Founders, but our society has been conflicted from its very beginning: CAPITALISM Against DEMOCRACY (one-dollar-one-vote) | (one-person-one-vote) - - - - - - - - - - | - - - - - - - - - - "It is not from the benevolence | "The aim of every political of the butcher, the brewer, or | constitution is, or ought to be, the baker, that we expect our | first to obtain for rulers men who dinner, but from their regard | possess most wisdom to discern, for their own self-interest. | and most virtue to pursue, the We address ourselves not to | common good of the society; and in their humanity but to their | the next place, to take the most self-love, and never talk to | effectual precautions for keeping them of our own necessities, | them virtuous whilst they continue but of their advantages." | to hold their public trust." | Wealth of Nations | Federalist # 57 Adam Smith (1776) | James Madison (1787) In America, capitalism has now totally defeated democracy ... Jay -- http://www.dieoff.org ------------------------------------------- Pluto (pluoo-toe) noun 1. Roman Mythology. The god of the dead and the ruler of the underworld. 2. American politics. The family of corporations that bought America's political sytsem. From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.nether.net!chi-news.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:35:04 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5l89fi$hpu@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <9705120315.AA13111@ellensburg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028064.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <9705120315.AA13111@ellensburg.com>, digress@ELLENSBURG.COM (Real name) wrote: >Excellent....surely this is in the Preamble to the Constitution of the >United States...* directly and indirectly.* It's amazing that universities, >funded by taxpayers, do not promote this principle you mentioned >as the very centerpiece of their arts and sciences, business and all. > >To minimize human suffering is another way of saying >Make the Most of Life! > So, is the perfect life one without any suffering at all? DOn't you think that character, mental maturity, and other factors are built out of some forms of suffering (hence the adage: "No pain, no gain")?? ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news.pacbell.net!not-for-mail From: nojunkmailskadanks@cyberearth.net (Skadanks) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio,sci.bio.ecology,sci.environment,talk.environment Subject: Help!! I need a populaiton question quickly answered... Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:28:02 GMT Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services Lines: 31 Message-ID: <337816f9.12666419@news.pacbell.net> References: <3353ded2.3417653@news.pacbell.net> <33579B6E.64AF@cats.ucsc.edu> <5jak6h$pju@knot.queensu.ca> <5je00s$6c2@lace.colorado.edu> <335cb277.20058575@news-2.csn.net> <335E5FB2.74C8@qma <5jo9n8$nsv@knot.queensu.ca> <3362B629.1F68@ilhawaii.net> Reply-To: nojunkmailskadanks@cyberearth.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ws111.cyberearth.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Xref: biosci bionet.population-bio:2435 sci.bio.ecology:27185 sci.environment:108733 talk.environment:93360 My term paper on overpopulation is due Wed. I need some information on China still. I would like to find out just how much China has benefitted from their pop. control program. Has their economy and standard of living thus far increased, even if it is marginal? Any opinions or website referrals relevent to China's improvements as a result of pop. control would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks in advance. -Your warrant is in question ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To email, remove "nojunkmail" from the address ******************************************* LEGAL NOTICE!: Anyone who sends me commercial e-mail will be charged a $500 proofreading fee. Consider this official notification. Failure to abide by this will result in legal action. "By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment. By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for each violation." ****************************************** YOU ARE FOREWARNED!!! From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!feeder.chicago.cic.net!chi-news.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:40:56 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 40 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5l89qi$hpu@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <9705120324.AA13198@ellensburg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028064.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <9705120324.AA13198@ellensburg.com>, digress@ELLENSBURG.COM (Real name) wrote: >At 02:09 AM 5/12/97 GMT, Carter Fields wrote: > >>No, I am not an economist...I am a molecular geneticist. > >Will you agree human population biology >(as you have been discussing on this list) >uses very little of molecular genetics? Sure. I read and respond to newsgroups like this for fun. My background in molecular genetics provides me with little useful information in arguing ecological points. The Hanson gentleman wanted to know what my occupation was...and so I told him. >Did you read the work of the life-long career >human population biologists? Jay Hanson's site has them. >It's easy to grandstand against science, which requires >patient and thorough study. Straw-man arguments are >a waste of time and beneath your profession as a >scientist. > I take it you don't like my arguements. I'll try harder next time...when I'm not drinking a beer and watching the Bulls game on the side. >Mike Pearson >www.ellensburg.com/~digress > >"We recognize that there are no trivial occurrences in life if we get the >right focus on them." > > -- Mark Twain, 1906 > quoted in _Susy and Mark Twain: Family Dialogues_ > arranged and edited by Edith Colgate Salsbury > ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!chi-news.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:49:20 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5l8aa9$hpu@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5kn9lc$rkn$1@news.iastate.edu> <5l0ilj$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3374B783.53017D72@qmail.com> <5l5u4g$eoo@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5l835j$eli@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028064.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <5l835j$eli@news.acns.nwu.edu>, _jamey@nwu.edu_ (James Patrick Klock) wrote: >In article <5l5u4g$eoo@news.acns.nwu.edu>, cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) > wrote: >>Yes, I know that certain ecologists >>have defined *their* version of "carrying capacity." What makes that >>definition abosolute and true? > >The conventional defination of carrying capacity is not absolute and true. >It does, however, benefit from a certain degree of consensus, which grants >it a semantic value lacking in your *personal* definition of carrying >capacity. It is that consensus which allows scientists (and laymen) to >understand one another. Sure, I understand that....but consensus has to start somewhere! Surely you don't expect a novel idea to have consensus overnight? I have a point of view which I am trying to argue. If it becomes popular then maybe it will have a high enough degree of consensus to grant it semantic value. ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Mon May 12 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!feeder.chicago.cic.net!chi-news.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:46:17 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 29 Message-ID: <5l8a4j$hpu@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5khg2v$esu@news.acns.nwu.edu> <33728821.4CD47042@qmail.com> <5l0id7$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3374B659.E80E74AA@qmail.com> <5l5tuc$eoo@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5l848u$eli@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028064.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <5l848u$eli@news.acns.nwu.edu>, _jamey@nwu.edu_ (James Patrick Klock) wrote: >If you have no problem with the die-off of a substantial portion of the >ecosphere which could potentially be prevented with a modicum of >preparation and effort, well, that's between you and your moral structure. > That's exactly it! My "moral structure" believes the above. Of course, I am willing to try to prevent such a situation, but I was just explaining a "what-would-happen" scenerio if the water supply was depleted. >>Naturally selected to live or die? Yes. I may be sick, but >>I am alive and surviving just fine. > >I am reminded of a description I recently heard of Objectivism summed up >in six words: "Screw you, Jack, I got mine!" > Isn't that what it all boils down to?? Humans are simply "advanced" animals that are constantly competing for survival. Our sole purpose on this planet is to survive long enough to reproduce and pass our little genes along to the next generation. In order to accomplish this task, if "Screw you, Jack, I got mine" is what it takes, then so be it. Who knows, maybe this very same tactic is what got us this far in time anyway. ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Tue May 13 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!bcm.tmc.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.nether.net!chi-news.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:48:17 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5lb24r$p70@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5l8545$dud$1@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028021.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <5l8545$dud$1@news.iastate.edu>, brent@iastate.edu wrote: SNIP > >There is, however, a good argument in inducing a little crash now, rather than >later. The sooner the better I think, I'll let you know when I'm finished with > >the math. :) > >Brent I am all for a little crash right now....you know...bump the population down a little so that we don't have to worry as much about this carrying capacity issue. We should probably stop donating food to starving countries to start. Then we should allow countries at war to battle themselves to death. Notice that I mention only passive means; active means (such as murder) would be unethical (but still biologically useful). ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Tue May 13 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ELLENSBURG.COM!digress From: digress@ELLENSBURG.COM (Mike Pearson) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: 13 May 1997 17:48:07 -0700 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 38 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9705140049.AA05169@ellensburg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net At 01:18 AM 5/10/97 GMT, Carter Fields wrote: The only reason we should be concerned about exploding >population is so that we can prevent the deterioration of our quality of life. > There will always be some of us around, just a question of how many and in >what conditions. > Two simple little stories A couple of years ago, it was asked on this list why Dr.Ehrlich's predictions of calamity in _The Population Bomb_ hadn't come true. In some degree, that's like ridiculing the backseat driver who alerted the Driver to a hazard on the road, while the driver was busy gabbing, by saying,"Watch out, you're going to hit that!" The driver swerves a little and the hazard is past. Does the driver then say,"Why'd you say that? I did not hit that!" On the other hand, We do not want alarm and panic to result in an over-control of human activity -- China "controls" its population growth more than Europe-- to what avail? China grows faster. More control does not always improve things. Instead of "population control" we should think Best Possible World -- not that it is, but what we can make it by recognizing human frailties and natural laws in our great plans. Mike www.ellensburg.com/~digress From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Tue May 13 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!webtv.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!unixs2.cis.pitt.edu!mattf+ From: Matt Fraser Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: May's Paleo Award Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:13:00 -0400 Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 36 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: unixs2.cis.pitt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: mattf@unixs2.cis.pitt.edu It is my privilege to announce the winner of ********** The May, 1997 Paleo Award ********** The Talk.Origins Fossil Hominids FAQ Website http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fossil-hominids.html Jim Foley's Fossil Hominids site is a tremendous Paleoanthropology site that offers descriptions and photos of Hominid species, illustrations, references, links and even Creationist Arguments! His website is a truly valuable resource for the WWW Paleoanthropological Community. Hat's Off and a dramatic bow to Jim! Next month's category is Prehistoric Archaeology! Vote for your favorite site at . Matt _________________________________________________________ Matt Fraser mattf+@pitt.edu Matt's Paleo Pages Where you can find The Paleo Award, PaleoNews, PaleoChat, The Paleo Forum, and The Paleo Ring Webring! *Member of The Paleo Ring* _________________________________________________________ From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Tue May 13 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!bcm.tmc.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:10:59 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5lb3fd$q5j@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5khg2v$esu@news.acns.nwu.edu> <33728821.4CD47042@qmail.com> <5l0id7$t14@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3374B659.E80E74AA@qmail.com> <5l5tuc$eoo@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3377D397.F8DC55@qmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028045.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <3377D397.F8DC55@qmail.com>, Jay Hanson wrote: >Carter Fields wrote: > >"Naturally selected" to live or die? This is a good one -- >naturally selected by who? > Naturally selected = selected by nature >Is it "natural" that the Chairman of General Motors should >select which members of your family should live or die? >Is that what you mean? > >Jay -- http://www.dieoff.org No, Jay, that is not what I mean. Nature selects what will live and what will die, not the Chairman of GM. ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Tue May 13 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!bcm.tmc.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.clark.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!chi-news.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:50:42 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5lb29k$p70@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028021.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article , hamiltona@knoxy.agvic.gov.au ("Andrew Hamilton") wrote: >Please note, >By definition it is not possible to exceed K. If you look at the >different equations for population growth you will realize that K >defines an asymptote so please, nobody talk about exceeding K or >relating this to extinction etc. etc.. Please feel free to talk >about approaching K but not exceeding it, otherwise we might as well >just ignore basic mathematical rules. > Andrew. Is this like how nothing can exceed the speed of light? I'll dig up an old article that proves (mathematically) that *things* can exceed the speed of light (Discover magazine somewhere...crap, now I have to get off my lazy ass to find it). I think we must be willing to look at alternative views to the customary "absolutes" that we have already set down, don't you? ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Wed May 14 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ELLENSBURG.COM!digress From: digress@ELLENSBURG.COM (Mike Pearson) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: 15 May 1997 10:22:00 -0700 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 44 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9705151723.AA19496@ellensburg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net At 03:11 AM 5/15/97 GMT, you wrote: >In article(Mike Pearson) wrote: >SNIP >>We do not want alarm and panic to result in >>an over-control of human activity -- China "controls" >>its population growth more than Europe-- to what avail? >>China grows faster. More control does not always >>improve things. >Didn't >they impliment their "one child per family" rule only *after* the population >had already gotten out of control? These are your words; I did not say they are out of control. I said they grow faster. I think the Mainland Chinese have a social system which has been quite "controlling" for several decades...that's such a deep subject to consider adequately. The point is that without control, the Europeans are not increasing their numbers, and under "control," the Chinese are very much increasing their numbers. So, maybe control is not best applied by bosses but by self, but results suggest there are other issues yet unresolved which affect this question. Many times people say we need "population control" which would bring with it more social control, and still might not work. I don't think it is fair to say that their >"population control" was the cause of their population surge.. Nor would I think it were fair to say that. There is so much spying by neighbors -- it's like Rush Limbaugh and Mao Tse-Tung were close ideological relatives. Remember, it's the People's REPUBLIC of China....with only 15 percent of its GNP going to government, and quite a lot of inflexibility. .instead, the >surge was bound to happen anyway (and would have been much worse had the >control not been there). Bound to happen anyway? Hm. That same principle could be applied to many questions of science and history. Then we could go eat SPAM. www.ellensburg.com/~digress From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Wed May 14 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!daresbury!uninett.no!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!feeder.chicago.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!cfi216 From: cfields@nwu.edu (Carter Fields) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: Re: "Carrying-capacity" Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:11:00 GMT Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 24 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5lduse$4l9@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <9705140049.AA05169@ellensburg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: coconut028050.nuts.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 In article <9705140049.AA05169@ellensburg.com>, digress@ELLENSBURG.COM (Mike Pearson) wrote: SNIP >We do not want alarm and panic to result in >an over-control of human activity -- China "controls" >its population growth more than Europe-- to what avail? >China grows faster. More control does not always >improve things. > I don't think it is fair to use the China example the way you are. Didn't they impliment their "one child per family" rule only *after* the population had already gotten out of control? I don't think it is fair to say that their "population control" was the cause of their population surge...instead, the surge was bound to happen anyway (and would have been much worse had the control not been there). >Mike > ------------------------------------------------------ Carter Fields University of Chicago by day (c-fields@uchicago.edu) Northwestern University by night (cfields@nwu.edu) From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Wed May 14 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!CMMACS.ERNET.IN!partha From: partha@CMMACS.ERNET.IN (S Parthasarathy) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: (none) Date: 15 May 1997 03:50:45 -0700 Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Molecular Biology Lines: 1 Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: world Message-ID: <9705151617.aa07280@cmmacs.ernet.in> NNTP-Posting-Host: net.bio.net subscribe pop-info From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Thu May 15 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!hermes.sovam.com!sovam!demos!news.rssi.ru!not-for-mail From: schepin@news.rssi.ru (Schepin O.P) Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: The scientific conference in Moscow Date: 16 May 1997 11:01:02 GMT Organization: Russian Space Research Institute (IKI) Lines: 64 Message-ID: <5lhepe$2sc$9@zware.space.ru> NNTP-Posting-Host: mx.iki.rssi.ru X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Russian Academy of Medical Sciences Ministry of Public Health of the Russian Federation Scientific Conference "Medico-social aspects of health and population reproduction in Russia in 1990s" The Organizer of the Conference: the Semashko Research Institute for Social Hygiene, Public Health Economics and Management Russia, Moscow, 14-15 October 1997 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ NEWSLETTER On the 14-15 October 1997 a scientific conference "Medico-social aspects of health and population reproduction in Russia in 1990s" will be held with the participation of foreign specialists. The main issues proposed to be discussed at the Conference are based on Russian materials and the foreign experience: 1. Current trends in the health of population: human reproduction; morbidity; physical development. 2. Current socio-economic problems of the society, quality of life and population health. 3. Problems of the population health management: theory and prac- tice of health protection and promotion. 4. The public health system activity as a factor of population health formation. 5. The prospective assessment of the main population health indi- cators. Those wishing to participate in the work of the Conference, are invited to submit the applications for participation and reports not exceeding 5-10 typed pages (in Word for Windows, spaced 1.5 only) by E-mail or fax to the Organizing Committee not later than 1 June 1997. The proceedings of the Conference will be published in the speci- al issue of the Bulletin of the N.A.Semashko Institute (before the Conference). The registration fee of US$ 50 is to be remitted to current acco- unt of the Institute. Address of the Organizing Committee: 103064 Moscow, 12, Vorontsovo Pole. The Semashko Institute, The Department of Research on Health Problems and Socio-Hygienic Monitoring, The Organizing Committee The ruble's account of the Institute: r/s 1609506 at the Tagansky Department of MIB, k/s 427161800, BIK 044583427, INN 7709004079. The foreign participants must communicate with us by E-mail or fax for the information about our currency account. Please send your applications for accommodation at RAMS hotel to the Organizing Committee. Accommodation price is $60 and more per day. Telephones : (095) 917-92-75, (095) 917-90-41 Fax : (095) 916-03-98 E-mail : schepin@mx.iki.rssi.ru The Organizing Committee From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Sat May 17 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.eznet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.his.com!news.lightlink.com!news2.lightlink.com!207.127.237.67 From: "Globally Responsible Birthing" Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: what about zero birthing NOW!I Date: 18 May 97 19:00:21 GMT Organization: I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF Lines: 3 Message-ID: <01bc63be$04945fa0$43ed7fcf@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: aurora.lightlink.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1157 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.127.237.67 In the US we well may have had more US births in 1996 than the 3,896,000 we had in 1995. Should there be more advocacy of zero birthing NOW? From owner-population-bio@net.bio.net Tue May 20 23:00:00 1997 Path: biosci!daresbury!uninett.no!sn.no!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!europa.clark.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!unixs2.cis.pitt.edu!mattf+ From: Matt Fraser Newsgroups: bionet.population-bio Subject: PaleoAnthro Fully Moderated Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:15:06 -0400 Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 54 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: unixs2.cis.pitt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: mattf@unixs2.cis.pitt.edu Hello, I would like to announce that the PaleoAnthro Discussion List has become totally moderated. This measure was taken to ameliorate certain problems, such as forgetting to trim response posts, potential flaming situations and off-topic posts. Consequently, the total volume of posts has been decreased. In addition, I have added a digest version of the Discussion list, as well as an "Announcements Only" list for those not interested in the discussions. The Discussion Lists also receive the announcements, so subscribing to more than one list is unnecessary. To subscribe to one of the lists, send an email message to With one of the following three messages in the body of the email: subscribe paleoanthro subscribe paleoanthro-digest subscribe pa-announce The topics of these lists include Paleoanthropology, Physical Anthropology, Prehistoric Archaeology, and Human and Non-human Primate Evolution. For more information, see the PaleoAnthro Lists Home Page at: http://www.pitt.edu/~mattf/PalAntList.html Thanks, Matt Fraser List Owner and Moderator _________________________________________________________ Matt Fraser mattf+@pitt.edu Matt's Paleo Pages Where you can find The Paleo Award, PaleoNews, PaleoChat, The Paleo Forum, The PaleoAnthro Mailing Lists, and The Paleo Ring Webrin