From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Fri Mar 19 22:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!IASTATE.EDU!bretting From: bretting@IASTATE.EDU Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: Subscription Message-ID: <9303202242.AA26390@iastate.edu> Date: 20 Mar 93 22:42:10 GMT Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: bionet Lines: 4 I know that this posting is pre-mature, but I wanted to be certain that I am subscribed to this newsgroup whenever it becomes operational. Thanks, bretting@vincent.iastate.edu From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Sat Mar 20 22:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usc!enterpoop.mit.edu!eru.mt.luth.se!lunic!sunic!pipex!warwick!bham!ibm3090.bham.ac.uk!WOCHNIAP From: WOCHNIAP@IBM3090.BHAM.AC.UK Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: DNA for RAPD from Brassica Message-ID: <935221175258@ibm3090.bham.ac.uk> Date: 21 Mar 93 17:52:58 GMT Organization: The University of Birmingham, United Kingdom Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: ibm3090.bham.ac.uk ============================================================================== I work on Brassica with RAPD. I am looking for very quick and reliable DNA extraction method (no phenol roform using if possible) which allows me to amplify DNA with PCR. If someone has any idea let me known please.Thanks in advance Peter. From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Mon Mar 22 22:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!kristoff From: kristoff@net.bio.net (David Kristofferson) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: Test of bionet.molbio.rapd Message-ID: Date: 23 Mar 93 04:37:10 GMT References: <935221175258@ibm3090.bham.ac.uk> Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Biology Lines: 10 This newsgroup is not yet open for official business. This is a test of the news mechanism. Sincerely, Dave Kristofferson BIOSCI/bionet Manager kristoff@net.bio.net From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Mon Mar 22 22:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!daresbury!daresbury!news From: kristoff@net.bio.net (Dave Kristofferson) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: test of rapd@daresbury.ac.uk Message-ID: <1993Mar23.043858.23378@gserv1.dl.ac.uk> Date: 23 Mar 93 04:38:46 GMT Sender: list-admin@daresbury.ac.uk Distribution: bionet Lines: 2 Original-To: rapd@uk.ac.daresbury Test of the mailing address rapd@daresbury.ac.uk. Please ignore. From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Mon Mar 22 22:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!utcsri!relay.cs.toronto.edu!neuron.ai.toronto.edu!ai.toronto.edu!steeg From: steeg@cs.toronto.edu ("Evan W. Steeg") Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.bio-matrix,bionet.population-bio,bionet.molbio.hiv,bionet.plants,bionet.molbio.gdb,bionet.virology,bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: Re: DidYouKnow... Message-ID: <93Mar23.165208edt.791@neuron.ai.toronto.edu> Date: 23 Mar 93 21:52:25 GMT References: <1993Mar23.051524.9685@midway.uchicago.edu> Distribution: usa Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto Lines: 32 Xref: biosci bionet.molbio.bio-matrix:387 bionet.population-bio:398 bionet.molbio.hiv:194 bionet.plants:1071 bionet.molbio.gdb:54 bionet.virology:60 bionet.molbio.rapd:7 In article <1993Mar23.051524.9685@midway.uchicago.edu> buzy@midway.uchicago.edu writes: >Today Japanese companies own the 7/11 store chain, Dunlop, Universal Pictures, >Columbia Pictures, Loews Theaters, MCA Home Entertainment, Tri-Star Pictures, >CBS Records, Columbia Records, Spencers stores, Ciniplex Odeon (a big part), >Firestone Tires and many many more very large US companies while foreigners >are prevented from owning any important Japanese concerns. Ordinary Japanese >are kind wonderful people, but what their companies and government are doing >is racist and wrong. > > To find out more about this (and get a more complete list of the above), >read (JAPANYES) "Does America Say Yes To Japan?";Leclerc 1992,93 which is >available on INTERNET. (most recent edition is v031993). This thoughtfully >written and important article has been circulating widely in many of America's >biggest corporations & universities like IBM & Harvard. When you read it (it >takes about 30 minutes), you'll see why. Let's *please* keep the (racism-tinged) political diatribes out of the bionet newsgroups, eh? (I will note in passing how it continues to amaze and amuse me that my fellow Americans just go into spin cycle over the simple fact that Japanese companies make better products at better prices - how *dare* they?! :-) -- Evan -- Evan W. Steeg (416) 978-5182 steeg@ai.toronto.edu (CSnet,UUCP,Bitnet) Dept of Computer Science steeg@ai.utoronto (other Bitnet) University of Toronto, steeg@ai.toronto.cdn (EAN X.400) Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 {seismo,watmath}!ai.toronto.edu!steeg From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Mon Mar 22 22:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!NET.BIO.NET!kristoff From: kristoff@NET.BIO.NET (Dave Kristofferson) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: test of rapd@net.bio.net Message-ID: Date: 23 Mar 93 04:37:57 GMT Sender: kristoff@net.bio.net Distribution: bionet Lines: 3 Test of the mailing address rapd@net.bio.net. Please ignore. From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Wed Mar 24 22:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!NET.BIO.NET!kristoff From: kristoff@NET.BIO.NET (Dave Kristofferson) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: test of rapd@net.bio.net Message-ID: Date: 25 Mar 93 01:04:19 GMT Sender: kristoff@net.bio.net Distribution: bionet Lines: 15 This newsgroup is almost operational. I have received the RAPD-L address list from Dr. Farmer and split it between here and Daresbury a few moments O.K. The Americas and Pacific Rim portion is installed here but the European, African, and Central Asian address list is enroute to Daresbury, U.K. As soon as I get word that it is installed there and a couple of last tests are run, we will announce that RAPD/bionet.molbio.rapd is ready for operation. Sincerely, Dave Kristofferson BIOSCI/bionet Manager kristoff@net.bio.net From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Mon Mar 29 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!POPGEN.BIOLOGY.UMT.EDU!tmo From: tmo@POPGEN.BIOLOGY.UMT.EDU (Thomas Mitchell-Olds) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: Subscription Message-ID: <9303301512.AA03602@popgen.biology.umt.edu> Date: 30 Mar 93 15:12:26 GMT Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Lines: 4 Please add me to the mailing list. Thanks. Tom Mitchell-Olds tmo@selway.umt.edu From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Tue Mar 30 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!gatech!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!sifon!monod!francis From: francis@monod.Biol.McGill.CA (Francis Ouellette) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: Here we go again ... (was Re: Subscription) Message-ID: Date: 31 Mar 93 01:37:10 GMT References: <9303301512.AA03602@popgen.biology.umt.edu> Sender: news@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca Organization: McGill University Lines: 30 Nntp-Posting-Host: monod.biol.mcgill.ca tmo@POPGEN.BIOLOGY.UMT.EDU (Thomas Mitchell-Olds) writes: >Please add me to the mailing list. Thanks. Sorry Tom, and all want to be rapd (and other BIOSCI) subscribers ... I don't want to scare you off the net, but _ALL_ subscription queries should be sent to : biosci@net.bio.net _or_ biosci@daresbury.ac.uk and _NOT_ to the individual groups. A new group (like RAPD) should get the word out to its users ... regards, francis -- | B.F. Francis Ouellette | manager, yeast chromosome I & XVI sequencing project | dept of biology, McGill university, Montreal, Qc, Canada | francis@monod.biol.mcgill.ca From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Tue Mar 30 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!EQUINOX.UNR.EDU!hoelzer From: hoelzer@EQUINOX.UNR.EDU (Guy A Hoelzer) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: Multiple RAPD primers. Message-ID: Date: 31 Mar 93 22:43:48 GMT References: <9303312132.AA09954@net.bio.net> Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: bionet Lines: 28 On 31 Mar 1993, Toby Bradshaw wrote: > After a spate of tests, how about an easy question? Do pairs of > 10-mers give patterns qualitatively different from single-primer > RAPD, and can this method be used to save us from mortgaging our > lab equipment to Operon? > > Answer needed before 7PM PST to preclude experimentation. > > Toby Bradshaw | > Department of Biochemistry | Will make genetic linkage maps > and College of Forest Resources | for food. > University of Washington, Seattle | > toby@u.washington.edu | I do not have experience using more than one RAPD primer, but I have considered this approach in the past. It seems to me that using two primers will yield far too many bands to be useful. In addition to the bands produced by each primer independently, you will amplify many more fragments that are flanked by the combination of different primers. Given concerns about repeatability and Mendelian inheritance, I try to minimize the number of bands produced in a RAPD reaction while maximizing the intensity and repeatability of the pattern. Nevertheless, I sympathize with your concern over cost savings. From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Tue Mar 30 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!kristoff From: kristoff@net.bio.net (David Kristofferson) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: test of newsgroup bionet.molbio.rapd Message-ID: Date: 31 Mar 93 01:36:44 GMT Distribution: bionet Organization: BIOSCI International Newsgroups for Biology Lines: 2 Test of USENET access. Please ignore. From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Tue Mar 30 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!daresbury!daresbury!news From: A.J.Bleasby@daresbury.ac.uk ("Alan Bleasby") Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: Test: please ignore Message-ID: <1993Mar31.141524.9978@gserv1.dl.ac.uk> Date: 31 Mar 93 15:15:20 GMT Sender: list-admin@daresbury.ac.uk Distribution: bionet Lines: 4 Original-To: rapd@uk.ac.daresbury Ignore AJB SERC Daresbury Laboratory From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Tue Mar 30 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!daresbury!daresbury!news From: A.J.Bleasby@daresbury.ac.uk ("A.J. Bleasby") Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: Test: please ignore Message-ID: <1993Mar31.135236.9646@gserv1.dl.ac.uk> Date: 31 Mar 93 13:51:17 GMT Sender: list-admin@daresbury.ac.uk Reply-To: ajb@cxa.daresbury.ac.uk Distribution: bionet Lines: 2 Original-To: rapd@uk.ac.daresbury AJB\ SERC Daresbury Laboratory From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Tue Mar 30 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!NET.BIO.NET!kristoff From: kristoff@NET.BIO.NET (Dave Kristofferson) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: test of rapd@net.bio.net Message-ID: Date: 31 Mar 93 01:34:37 GMT Sender: kristoff@net.bio.net Distribution: bionet Lines: 11 test of the rapd@net.bio.net address. The RAPD-L mailing list has been set up at our U.K. and U.S. sites. Two more tests will follow. Sorry for the inconvenience. Sincerely, Dave Kristofferson BIOSCI/bionet Manager kristoff@net.bio.net From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Tue Mar 30 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!parc!decwrl!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!news.u.washington.edu!stein.u.washington.edu!toby From: toby@stein.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: THIS IS NOT A TEST! Summary: primer pairs Message-ID: <1pd0t4INNbpt@shelley.u.washington.edu> Date: 31 Mar 93 21:02:28 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu After a spate of tests, how about an easy question? Do pairs of 10-mers give patterns qualitatively different from single-primer RAPD, and can this method be used to save us from mortgaging our lab equipment to Operon? Answer needed before 7PM PST to preclude experimentation. Toby Bradshaw | Department of Biochemistry | Will make genetic linkage maps and College of Forest Resources | for food. University of Washington, Seattle | toby@u.washington.edu | From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Tue Mar 30 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!daresbury!daresbury!news From: kristoff@net.bio.net (Dave Kristofferson) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: test of rapd@daresbury.ac.uk, please ignore Message-ID: <1993Mar31.013535.1403@gserv1.dl.ac.uk> Date: 31 Mar 93 01:35:33 GMT Sender: list-admin@daresbury.ac.uk Distribution: bionet Lines: 2 Original-To: rapd@uk.ac.daresbury test of European posting address. From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Tue Mar 30 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!NET.BIO.NET!kristoff From: kristoff@NET.BIO.NET (Dave Kristofferson) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: Re: Here we go again ... (was Re: Subscription) Message-ID: Date: 31 Mar 93 02:16:04 GMT Sender: kristoff@net.bio.net Distribution: bionet Lines: 46 > tmo@POPGEN.BIOLOGY.UMT.EDU (Thomas Mitchell-Olds) writes: > > >Please add me to the mailing list. Thanks. > > Sorry Tom, and all want to be rapd (and other BIOSCI) subscribers ... > > I don't want to scare you off the net, but _ALL_ subscription queries > should be sent to : > > biosci@net.bio.net > > _or_ > > biosci@daresbury.ac.uk > > > and _NOT_ to the individual groups. A new group (like RAPD) > should get the word out to its users ... > > > regards, > > francis > > > -- > | B.F. Francis Ouellette > | manager, yeast chromosome I & XVI sequencing project > | dept of biology, McGill university, Montreal, Qc, Canada > | francis@monod.biol.mcgill.ca > > The word has not gone out yet because the newsgroup mailing lists were just completed today. I just saw that Alan Bleasby, the BIOSCI manager at Daresbury, made an announcement on BIOFORUM that the group was ready at their end. I just ran one last series of tests and will post instructions here shortly when the last message makes it back here from its round trip to England (should happen shortly). Sincerely, Dave Kristofferson BIOSCI/bionet Manager kristoff@net.bio.net From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Wed Mar 31 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!NET.BIO.NET!kristoff From: kristoff@NET.BIO.NET (Dave Kristofferson) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: RAPD/bionet.molbio.rapd is ready for operation Message-ID: Date: 1 Apr 93 01:53:51 GMT Sender: kristoff@net.bio.net Distribution: bionet Lines: 36 The RAPD/bionet.molbio.rapd newsgroup has passed our tests and is operational at both daresbury.ac.uk and net.bio.net. The RAPD-L mailing list has been split between the two sites. If you have any correspondence ABOUT SUBSCRIPTIONS, please address it to one of the following addresses depending upon your location: Address Location ------- -------- biosci@daresbury.ac.uk Europe, Africa, and Central Asia biosci@net.bio.net Americas and the Pacific Rim If you have been receiving RAPD-L via e-mail, but have USENET access to bionet.molbio.rapd, please contact the appropriate address above and request cancellation of your e-mail subscription. USENET users can post directly to bionet.molbio.rapd at your local site. Please be sure to set your article distribution to either "world" or "bionet" if the latter option is available. E-mail users can post messages (EXCEPT SUBSCRIPTION REQUESTS!!!) to one of the following addresses: Address Location ------- -------- rapd@daresbury.ac.uk Europe, Africa, and Central Asia rapd@net.bio.net Americas and the Pacific Rim Messages posted by mail show up in USENET news and vice versa. Sincerely, Dave Kristofferson BIOSCI/bionet Manager kristoff@net.bio.net From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Wed Mar 31 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!gatech!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!decwrl!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!news.u.washington.edu!stein.u.washington.edu!toby From: toby@stein.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: Re: THIS IS NOT A TEST! Message-ID: <1pdaqeINNroo@shelley.u.washington.edu> Date: 31 Mar 93 23:51:42 GMT References: <1pd0t4INNbpt@shelley.u.washington.edu> Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu In article <1pd0t4INNbpt@shelley.u.washington.edu> toby@stein.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw) writes: >After a spate of tests, how about an easy question? Do pairs of >10-mers give patterns qualitatively different from single-primer >RAPD, and can this method be used to save us from mortgaging our >lab equipment to Operon? > >Answer needed before 7PM PST to preclude experimentation. Well, it took a couple of hours, but John Hachey came through. Welsh and McClelland (1992) Genomic fingerprinting using arbitrarily primed PCR and a matrix of pairwise combinations of primers. NAR 19(19):5275-5279. It works, apparently, with only about 1/3 of the bands in common with either of the two single primers. Toby Bradshaw | Department of Biochemistry | Will make genetic linkage maps and College of Forest Resources | for food. University of Washington, Seattle | toby@u.washington.edu | From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Wed Mar 31 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!esvax.dnet.dupont.com!rafalski From: rafalski@esvax.dnet.dupont.com Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: One or two primers? Message-ID: <9304011501.AA11816@esds01.es.dupont.com> Date: 1 Apr 93 15:01:43 GMT Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: bionet Lines: 12 In response to a question by Toby Bradshaw concerning use of two primers instead of one: We found some new bands with pairs of primers, but also some of the bands seen with each of the primer individually. We concluded it is not worth doing. Other labs tried this, too - and some have concluded that it may be useful if you are seriously limited in your primer budget, and do not mind sorting throught the results (which bands you have/have not seen before). The concern someone voiced over obtaining too many bands is not justified - it does not happen. Antoni Rafalski rafalski@esvax.dnet.dupont.com From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Wed Mar 31 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!YVAX.BYU.EDU!FARMERJ From: FARMERJ@YVAX.BYU.EDU Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: Re: Multiple RAPD primers Message-ID: <01GWHWHM12LA8Y5XCX@yvax.byu.edu> Date: 1 Apr 93 19:33:02 GMT Sender: daemon@net.bio.net Distribution: bionet Lines: 4 I have tried this approach, but it did not give more bands than a single primer.I assume that is because there is a competition for primer and polymerase that is quickly won by the most fit sequences. In any case, it did not seem to be an improvement on single primers, so I did not pursue it. I would like to know your results. Jim Farmer From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Wed Mar 31 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!daresbury!daresbury!news From: dmartin@crc.ac.uk (David Martin x3175) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: RAPD mailing list Message-ID: <1993Apr1.170831.1830@gserv1.dl.ac.uk> Date: 1 Apr 93 16:52:25 GMT Sender: list-admin@daresbury.ac.uk Distribution: bionet Lines: 9 Original-To: rapd@uk.ac.daresbury I have a colleague at a different institution working on RAPD's in fungi. He is interested in this conference but does not have usenet access. could someone please email me the details for the email subscription so I can pass them on to him (ie. how and where to subscribe.) Thanks in advance ....David Martin, Clinical Research Centre, Harrow UK From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Wed Mar 31 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!nrcnet0!10.164.nrc.ca!nash From: nash@biologysx.lan.nrc.ca (John Nash) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: Old RAPD-L archives Message-ID: Date: 1 Apr 93 15:19:17 GMT Sender: root@nrcnet0.nrc.ca (Operator) Organization: National Research Council of Canada Lines: 18 Nntp-Posting-Host: 132.246.164.10 G'day, I don't recall this being asked before... Are the old RAPD-L archives being transferred to bionet? I ask this because I didn't like the LISTSERV way of searching archives, but I like the bionet/ WAIS way. If the old archives are being transferred to bionet, then I can delete all the old RAPD-L mail that I have saved, now that I am reading this newsgroup by USENET reader. Thanks.... cheers, John John Nash | Email: Nash@biologysx.lan.nrc.ca. Institute for Biological Sciences, | National Research Council of Canada, Cell Physiology Group. | Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. *** Disclaimer: All opinions are mine, not NRC's! *** From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Wed Mar 31 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!NET.BIO.NET!kristoff From: kristoff@NET.BIO.NET (Dave Kristofferson) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: BIOSCI-REQUEST address Message-ID: Date: 1 Apr 93 03:35:43 GMT Sender: kristoff@net.bio.net Distribution: bionet Lines: 31 Please be sure to address postings to rapd@net.bio.net or rapd@daresbury.ac.uk. A few of you may see our messages appearing to come from BIOSCI-REQUEST instead of the person who composed the message. If this happens to you, please refer to the text below. Sincerely, Dave Kristofferson BIOSCI/bionet Manager kristoff@net.bio.net What is the "BIOSCI-REQUEST" address? ------------------------------------- The BIOSCI-REQUEST@net.bio.net address was established to trap mailing error messages ("bouncers"). The address is not normally seen by BIOSCI readers in the messages that they receive. Unfortunately some proprietary (read "VMS") and other oddball mail systems misread the information used to transmit Internet e-mail messages and may end up putting the BIOSCI-REQUEST address on the From: line in the mail that you may receive. If this happens at your site and you want to reply to a message, please use either the newsgroup address on the To: line of the message or try to find the author's e-mail address elsewhere in the message (people often append this at the end of their text in their "signature"). If you send a message back to BIOSCI-REQUEST@net.bio.net, the BIOSCI managers at net.bio.net will be the only ones who will see it (we will try to forward it to the appropriate newsgroup, but would appreciate it if you would determine the correct address yourself first). From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Wed Mar 31 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!daresbury!daresbury!news From: GBGA13@VMS3.GLASGOW.AC.UK (BLC) Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: Subscription Message-ID: <1993Apr1.091014.23432@gserv1.dl.ac.uk> Date: 1 Apr 93 10:06:00 GMT Sender: list-admin@daresbury.ac.uk Distribution: bionet Lines: 1 Original-To: RAPD@UK.AC.DARESBURY subscribe rapd@daresbury.ac.uk From owner-rapd@net.bio.net Wed Mar 31 23:00:00 1993 Path: biosci!LIFSCI.SDSU.EDU!SOBRAL From: SOBRAL@LIFSCI.SDSU.EDU Newsgroups: bionet.molbio.rapd Subject: RE: THIS IS NOT A TEST! Message-ID: <930331152908.24600285@LIFSCI.SDSU.EDU> Date: 31 Mar 93 23:29:08 GMT Sender: kristoff@net.bio.net Reply-To: SOBRAL@LIFSCI.SDSU.EDU Distribution: bionet Lines: 7 Toby, Michael McClelland and John Welsh found that about half of the amplification products were different from those produced by either primer alone, so it is worth it. However, you will still have to sell your soul to Perkin-Elmer, unless Ron's letter in Science produces some effect. happy experiment! bruno