The debate

Paul Morgan t2r6 at
Thu Dec 4 08:37:33 EST 1997

Joseph Zorzin wrote in message <34853903.1557 at>...

>Yuh, in theory. But the reality of the situation is that these BAD
>things really do happen on a regular basis. And do you really want to
>get the lawyers involved AFTER somebody burns down a mountain side or
>floods the village?

I've been on the receiving end of some of these and it ain't fun.  But I
prefer involving lawyers after the fact than being forced to involve
foresters before the fact.

>It really amazes me why a landowner would NOT want a professional
>forester involved if their property is being logged. That's what a prof.
>forester is all about- to bring out about silviculture, and to oversee
>the loggers and to ensure a the highest possible selling price for the
>timber and to avoid having a problem with environemtnal laws, etc., etc.

No argument, just as many car owner would want a professional mechanic
involved in rebuilding their engine.  But the car owner isn't prevented by
law from rebuilding it himself.  And legislation against rebuilding your
engine would soon expand to include changing your oil.  And I suspect most
mechanics would be overjoyed.

>And your mentioning "minimal educational effort" as if to say such
>MINIMAL effort will suffice; which sounds like a serious put down of
>what a professional forester is. Good forestry, especially the logging
>job, is a VERY complex subject, WAY BEYOND, a minimal educational

"Minimum educational effort" refered to fire hazards, timber trespass, etc.
Not to woodlot management.  Good forestry and logging is difficult.  But I
suspect the art to science ratio is higher than most foresters will admit.
I remember reading somewhere that the best fertilizer is the sweat off the
farmer's brow.  I don't see any reason why this doesn't hold for forestry.

>MOST logging going on in the northeast is still without a
>forester and most landowners are NOT getting a fair price and they're
>NOT getting silvicultural. Do you think these same landowners would sell
>their house without a real estate broker AND a lawyer? They might, but
>it's very risky and basicly stupid.

They might and more power too them.  If they have take a bath in the
process, well, then we will be poorer but free.  If I screw up my land, well
what was it that old Freddy said long ago, "That which does not kill me
makes me stronger".

>Sure, go ahead be Mister Independant Doesn't Need Anybody Telling Me
>What To Do and find yourself getting ripped off and your land raped. And
>then face the consequences when bad things happen, which I'm NOT
>fantasizaing about because these bad things happend ALL the time; which
>is why we have laws in the first place; but the laws are inadequet; so
>SMART people retain competant forestry consultants just like they also
>retain CPA's, and other professionals.

And the *really* smart retain them only when they believe necessary.

>Actually I have no philosophical dissagreement with "live free or die".
>My ideal world was North America before the white guys showed up. It was
>a paradise for those living here; after all; there were NO lawyers. <G>

My ideal world would be North America before the red or white guys showed
up.  But then again, I had an unhappy childhood.

>And if you're a logger or landowner, why not write up an esay for my
>essay page? (see below). I'm looking for ALL kinds of opinions,
>especially opinions I don't agree with. I'd like the esssays page to be
>a collection of opinions from all segments of this complex world of
>forest land ownership and mgt. including landowners, environmentalists,
>loggers, foresters, and even bureaucrats; and God Forbid, even lawyers
>if I can find one that can actually write a legible essay.

I might take you up on that...your page is on my list after I digest
Jostnix's and the fungus one.

>"The only forestry web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of
>"Earth's only online forestry journal containing essays from the cutting
>edge- no pun intended"

                       Morgan Forest Products
                              - Since 2006 -
    "Real Wood - Because Life is too Long for Plastic"

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