Coufal's remarks on civility

Ted Kegebein kegebein at
Thu Oct 28 19:58:39 EST 1999

Joseph Zorzin wrote:
> Karl Wenger (wenger at, last years president of the Society of American
> Foresters wrote in the SAF-list server:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: reza at Forestry.Auburn.EDU <reza at Forestry.Auburn.EDU>
> > To: Recipients of saf-news <saf-news at>
> > Date: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 12:17 PM
> > Subject: Re: Coufal's remarks on civility
> >
> > Sayeed:  In my first sentence I specified "in the United States".  I know
> > quite well that in many other parts of the world governments and people in
> > power treat others very badly.  We can only hope that in time the principle
> > we still live by in the U.S. will spread around the wlorld.
> Some nation's governments treat their people even better than the US of A. In
> most of western Europe and Japan and Canada and most other advanced industrial
> nations- EVERYONE has medical insurance. Most of those nations have more
> advanced public education.

Unlike the rest of the world, America has a Constitution which limits
the power of the Federal government. If you aren't happy with the
limits placed on the Federal government you can:

      1. petition Congress for a Constitutional amendment granting
         the Federal government all powers they wish to exercise.
      2. pack your bags and move to a more "progressive" country.

      3. keep voting for Socialists who ignore the Constitution
         risking another Civil War.

> So, an improvement over your message would be that
>      "we should hope that some of the better principals of the USA will
>      spread around the world- but not our horrendous distribution of
>      wealth, not our excessively expensive and poorly distributed medical
>      system that doesn't serve 50,000,000 people, not our highly irregular
>      education system that fails millions which has been rated one of the
>      poorest of the wealthy nations, not our history of genocide against
>      Native Americans and our history of racism; not our forestry practices
>      which consist mostly of clearcutting and high grading; not our massive
>      dumping of CO2 and other pollutants into the atmosphere, not our
>      wastage of energy; not our Medieval emphasis on fundamentalist
>      religions which now are trying to end the teaching of evolution and
>      cosmology; not our continued excessive expense on the military; not
>      our paving over of much of our country with ever more shopping centers
>      and poorly designed suburbs; not our shallow culture with its
>      worshiping of pro sports and extremely dumb television shows and lame,
>      violent movies. America is a great country, but we don't want to pass
>      all our bad habits to the rest of the world."
> >
> >
> > Karl Wenger
> >
> > >Karl,
> > >I enjoyed your post, and for the most part I do agree with you. At least
> > >in the United States what you say is mostly true. But I would like to
> > >point that violence sometimes becomes the only resort. I am originally
> > >from a part of the world where democracy is often a foreign concept. In
> > >fact, not too long ago we threw out a dictator that involved a long
> > >violent process. The irony here is that these totalitarian regimes are
> > >often well supported by one of the greatest democracies in the
> > >world...the United States!! The US may be a great democracy but it
> > >certainly does not seem to practice that concept in its foreign policy.
> > >At least not until recent years. Violent protests creates unnecessary
> > >losses of lives, property on both sides..there's no doubt about that.
> > >But I would dare point out that without "Intifada" we probably would not
> > >have the peace in the middle east today, or the British government will
> > >not be so eager to talk peace in Northern Ireland without the actions of
> > >the IRA. Sometimes violence becomes the only way for forgotten,
> > >powerless people to call attention to their plights.
> > >
> > >Having said that, I would also like to point out another irony in all
> > >this. In your post you have made a great case for peace and
> > >non-violence, but I think (and I do admit that I am not sure) the same
> > >you will strongly agree that people need guns to protect their lives and
> > >property, and that they have every right to shoot an intruder on their
> > >property. Sure that also kills a lot of innocent people, like that poor
> > >Japanese student who was lost and knocked at somebody's door for
> > >directions, but oh well.....
> > >
> > >Sayeed Mehmood
> > >Auburn University
> > >Auburn, AL 36849
> --
> Joe "Che" Zorzin
> The Politics of Forestry
> "Monstrous in its hold upon us, the bureaucratic mind
> is sustained by the self-perpetuating mechanics of government
> and the claptrap of its own rhetoric."
> "Kafka's Bureaucratic Nightmares" by Jack Matthews
> "We human beings don't look very much like a tree, we view
> the world very differently but down deep at the molecular
> heart of life we are virtually identical to trees."
> Carl Sagan
> North East Forest Reformation List
> Definition of "north east"- everything
> northeast of Baja, California

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