Report says Klamath panel erred

Donald L Ferrt wolfbat359 at
Tue Nov 26 16:06:10 EST 2002

Larry Caldwell <larryc at> wrote in message news:<MPG.184c08198ae6fb3d98a371 at>...
> In article <6dafee1b.0211241931.2ad9bb9d at>, 
> dwheeler at writes: 
> > Larry Caldwell <larryc at> wrote in message news:<MPG.184b052a2492639998a36d at>...
> > > In article <6dafee1b.0211231415.178e1db6 at>, 
> > > dwheeler at writes: 
> > >  
> > > > There does appear to be an agenda. I don't see the Klamath tribe
> > > > involved in it, since their tribe legally doesn't exist at this time
> > > > to my knowledge.
> > > 
> > > You are very mistaken.  Plus, it is the Klamath TribeS.  There are Modoc, 
> > > Paiute and Klamath tribes involved in the Klamath Basin.  They have all 
> > > had official tribal status restored, but they didn't get their 
> > > reservations back.
> > 
> > I'd still like to see something more than just your informed opinion,
> > Larry. If I am mistaken, a citation would certainly prove that
> > allegation.
> Why not check with the tribes themselves?  
> "In 1986, we were successful in regaining Restoration of Federal 
> Recognition for our Tribes. Although our land base was not returned to 
> us, we were directed to compose a plan to regain economic self-
> sufficiency. Our Economic Self-sufficiency Plan reflects the Klamath 
> Tribes' continued commitment to playing a pivotal role in the local 
> economy."
> I live in a rural area outside the Willamette Valley.  While the Indian 
> population of Oregon is not huge, you don't have to go very far before 
> you rub elbows with one.  I used to work for a Modoc, who employed 
> several Indians from various tribes.  There was never a hint of 
> discrimination.  They always treated me like a regular person.  :)
> I'm no expert, but when you work with Indians you hear a lot of 
> conversations from the Indian viewpoint, and get a picture of their 
> politics.  The Klamath Tribes were once pretty prosperous, before the 
> feds took the reservation away.  
> I think most Klamath Basin Indians want to return to a land based 
> economy, rather than cashing in on the gambling craze.  I have always 
> supported the return of tribal lands.  There is no doubt that the 
> termination movement was nothing but a land grab clothed in high sounding 
> phrases.  The environmentalists don't like the idea, because turning a 
> whole national forest back to the Indians would erode their power base.  
> The Whites in the Klamath Basin are of mixed opinion about the 
> restoration.  On one hand, the Indians historically did a great job of 
> managing the land and were a big part of the local economy.  Farm stores, 
> restaurants, shopping malls and similar businesses stand to benefit in a 
> big way if the Indians get their land back.  OTOH, whites would lose 
> their hunting and fishing privileges on millions of acres of land, which 
> would be a big hit to the local recreation industry.  A lot of people 
> show up to hunt mulies and waterfowl each year, and leave big wads of 
> green at local vendors.  Some ranches would lose profitable grazing 
> leases.
> So you see, besides fishery concerns, the Klamath Tribes are using the 
> water issues to leverage their cause. 

Oh and the recent subsidy farmers to the area are Not???????

 Sometimes they may use the 
> environmentalists to make a point, but they have no illusions that the 
> environmentalists would support the tribes. 

Hard to say!  Incase after case, value habitat for endangered species
are found and welcomed on many reservations!

 They may dispute with the 
> farmers, but know that the farming community contains some of their most 
> solid supporters.

In what century? = not the 17th, 18th 19th, 20th or 21th as far as I
can see!

  Farmers and Indians are united in their loathing of 
> Washington DC.

Fine = tell them they can no onger have any reservations as the
property rights fanatics see it = then see how they view it!

  If the feds destroy the local economy, it will hurt the 
> Indians bad, because they depend on the white community for jobs. 

Potato farming is highly mechanized = proove that the number of Native
Americans hired by those farms is significant!

 If you 
> destroy the farming economy of the basin, you push another 20% of the 
> Indian population below the poverty line.



What Walker does not mention is that several local businesses have
taken measures widely perceived to be anti-Indian. One local Klamath
Falls eatery is selling a cod-based sandwich that they advertise as a
"Sucker Fish Sandwich." The proceeds from sales of the sandwich are
going to fight the Endangered Species Act.

Tribal members said some restaurants refused to serve them and that
local area whites often harass them when they go into town.

The tribe has fared a little better in the water woes. Located on the
north side of Klamath Lake, the tribe and individual American Indian
ranchers have greater access to water since they are in the direct
path of mountain water run off. Water remains fairly scarce even in
this area and it is nearly impossible to transport water from the area
to the drought-stricken area on the south side of the lake.

One of the tribal sources at Klamath said there is no easy solution to
the problem, and as the area braces for the drier summer season the
situation is not likely to get better.

"The only thing that can solve this situation is rain, and a lot of
it. Other than that it looks like we're in for a bumpy ride."


Native American Groups

(Traditionalists and Non&#8209;traditionalists)


The members of this group primarily include Upper Pit River, Paiute,
and Modoc/Klamath Indians. Most of the Upper Pat River Indians are
located in the Alturas area, while the Paiute are generally found in
the Ft. Bidwell area. Modoc/Klamath Indians are primarily
nonresidents. The group experiences high unemployment (approximately
75%), and those who are employed work seasonally in ranching and
construction off the reservation.


Native Americans have traditional and non&#8209;traditional (economic)
ties to the land. That is, religious/heritage sites are located on the
Forest; and many individuals are employed by the timber products
industry (logging, thinning, planting, mill work, etc.). Traditional
Native Americans hold nature in high regard and believe that all land,
plants, animals, and water are sacred.


The major influence of Forest management on this group is the
disturbance of Native American cultural and religious resources.
Traditionalists believe in retaining a natural landscape and using
resources necessary to sustain their lifestyle. They consider major
land alterations (clearcuts, road building, etc.) disrespectful to
nature. Thus, protection and preservation of hunting, gathering and
spiritual places is only part of their concerns in the way the Forest
is managed. Major prehistoric sites, such as villages, seasonal base
camps, cemeteries, rock art, and prayer seats, are also of concern and
should similarly be preserved out of respect for ancestors and to
preserve examples of past lifestyles.


The certainty and uncertainty of maintaining the group's way of life
and their traditional uses of the land is directly related to the
amount of environmental disturbance caused by Forest activities: the
greater the disturbance, the more likely an area of religious or
cultural significance will be changed. Consequently, traditional
Native Americans prefer alternatives which stress maintaining tine
Forest in a natural setting.


Traditionalists may include tribal elders who are not involved in the
current job market. They may also include younger individuals
interested in reviving some aspects of past lifestyles, beliefs, and
traditions. These revivalists may be involved in the current local job


Non&#8209;traditional Native Americans are generally younger to
middle&#8209;aged individuals involved in the current job market.
While they may lean toward the traditionalist point of view, they are
also concerned with the economic necessity of employment. Because of
their need to work, non&#8209;traditionalists accept more intensive
management of the Forest, including disturbance of some cultural
heritage sites. Generally, increased opportunities for local
employment, especially in the timber products industry, is a benefit
to this group.

> The general public just gets sound bites, and has no clue about the 
> historic basis for local politics.

AKA = Stip the Natives of the Land!

  At this point, everybody is praying 
> for rain.  Twenty years ago, they had to raise the road bed of US97 
> because Klamath Lake was flooding the highway.  This was right after the 
> severe droughts of the late 1970s.  A couple years of double snow packs 
> and this entire issue would sink into the water and drown.

We shall see!

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