Thinning on the Angeles National Forest

Bob Weinberger bobsstuff at
Sat Feb 21 15:46:43 EST 2004

"Ian St. John" <istjohn at> wrote in message
news:nlMZb.11595$w65.887623 at


> Not shown. The amount of timber they are taking is not being measured
> agianst the amount of timber that is in the forest. Try supporting your
> claims ( assuming you can ). As I suspect you pull this claim out of your
> ass, I won't hold my breath. The result of machine thinning in the Kaibab
> forest ( admitted to be a timber sale ) can be seen on the rightmost
> on page 2 at
> Looks pretty thin all right...


The above is just one more example of your abysmal understanding of dry site
forest ecology.  Sure the picture you point to would look sparse to someone
whose forest experience is apparently limited to northern boreal forests,
but for a dry site Ponderosa stand, the tree density shown in the picture
you cite is still relatively high for long term forest "health".

In 30 to 50 years, even if no additional trees get started on that site, the
level of biomass resulting from normal growth with that tree density may
well  still be such that the trees would likely be stressed to a point that
could threaten the viability of the entire existing stand any time the
available moisture dropped below "normal" levels.

There is a tremendous difference between forests growing on sites where
moisture is normally the limiting factor on the level of biomass that can be
supported ( where there are commonly very wide periodic swings in the amount
of moisture available), and forests where growing space is normally the
limiting factor (where moisture regimes tend to be relatively consistent
over time).

You seem to be basing the logic of your so called rebuttals on a background
that is limited to the later type forests - it simply does not apply.

As to your assertions that the project on the Angeles NF is driven by the
timber industry - what timber industry?  There is virtually no timber
industry left in that area. Frankly I doubt that they will be able to pull
the project off, as they will have a very hard time finding  potential
buyers for the "merchantable" material that might be generated.

         Bob Weinberger
Forest Management Consulting

With 40+ years of studying, working in, and learning from the forests of the
Western US

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