From g.read from niwa.co.nz Sat Aug 1 02:40:29 2009 From: g.read from niwa.co.nz (Geoff Read) Date: Sat Aug 1 02:43:10 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Burgess Shale animal Oesia Message-ID: <4A749A2C.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> Dear all, Nothing important to impart - unless you are Hubert Szaniawski or Simon Conway Morris, but it is so quiet on this list - (Hellooo - is there anyone out there?) - that here is a morsel of controversy for you - with a definite worm link. These papers are open access. http://www.app.pan.pl/issue.html?issue=current Conway Morris S 2009. The Burgess Shale animal Oesia disjuncta is not a chaetognath: A reply to Szaniawski (2002). Acta Palaeontologica Polonica 54(1): 175?179. Szaniawski H 2009. Fossil chaetognaths from the Burgess Shale: A reply to Conway Morris (2009). Acta Palaeontologica Polonica 54(2): 361-364. I vote for Hubert. Geoff -- Geoff Read http://www.annelida.net/ http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa *************************** NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research Ltd. From g.read from niwa.co.nz Thu Aug 6 04:09:39 2009 From: g.read from niwa.co.nz (Geoff Read) Date: Thu Aug 6 04:11:57 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Cabaneros giant worms? Message-ID: <4A7B4693.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> Hi folks, It's a story in the press but tantalisingly light on specifics. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090803/sc_afp/sciencepaleontologywormspain The Spanish National Research Council (CSIC) said the fossil creatures, giant marine worms, lived in horizontal galleries of five metres in length and 15-20 centimetres in diameter under the seabed. That is the 'fossilised tracks' found in the Cabaneros National Park are that size. A 20 cm diameter worm? Yep, that would be a giant alright!! Geoff -- Geoff Read http://www.annelida.net/ http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa *************************** NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research Ltd. From bryony from seasurvey.co.uk Sun Aug 9 06:32:33 2009 From: bryony from seasurvey.co.uk (Bryony Pearce) Date: Sun Aug 9 14:43:04 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Reference request Message-ID: <4A7EB3D1.9010509@seasurvey.co.uk> Dear All, I am having enormous trouble locating the following references, one is report written by the National Rivers Authority (UK) which is now out of print; National Rivers Authority, 1994. Wash Zone Report. National Rivers Authority, Huntingdon, U.K. The other is a book which no one seems to have in stock, including the British Library; Kirtley, 1994. A review and taxonomic revision of the family Sabellariidae johnston 1865 (Annelida: Polychaeta) Sabecon Press Science Series Vol 1. Florida 223pp. If anyone has electronic copies of these or has any idea where I might locate them it would be much appreciated!! Also I am undertaking a review of sabellariid reefs and so any recent or obscure publications, particularly recent discoveries would be fantastic! Many thanks Bryony -- Bryony Pearce BSc (Hons) Research Director Marine Ecological Surveys Limited 24a Monmouth Place Bath, BA1 2AY Tel: +44 (0)1225 442211 Fax: +44 (0)1225 444411 http://www.seasurvey.co.uk/ From g.read from niwa.co.nz Sun Aug 9 20:27:39 2009 From: g.read from niwa.co.nz (Geoff Read) Date: Sun Aug 9 20:30:03 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Reference request In-Reply-To: <4A7EB3D1.9010509@seasurvey.co.uk> References: <4A7EB3D1.9010509@seasurvey.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A802049.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> Hi Bryony & all, Well that is a surprise. Even the UK Natural History Museum Library doesn't have Kirtley's book in the online catalogue, and I couldn't see any second hand copies today online. In worldcat the nearest holding library to you appears to be in the Netherlands (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/31852807). It was privately published by the author and David Kirtley is no longer with us as you probably know. It will be still in copyright obviously & is before the pdf era arrived. However, a number of polychaete workers will have personal copies. Maybe someone in the UK could loan their hard copy to you? Not much advice beyond those suggestions. Sorry. Geoff >>> On 9/08/2009 at 11:32 p.m., Bryony Pearce wrote: > Dear All, [...] > The other is a book which no one seems to have in stock, including the > British Library; > > Kirtley, 1994. A review and taxonomic revision of the family > Sabellariidae johnston 1865 (Annelida: Polychaeta) Sabecon Press Science > Series Vol 1. Florida 223pp. > > If anyone has electronic copies of these or has any idea where I might > locate them it would be much appreciated!! -- Geoff Read http://www.annelida.net/ http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa *************************** NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research Ltd. From g.read from niwa.co.nz Sun Aug 9 23:58:08 2009 From: g.read from niwa.co.nz (Geoff Read) Date: Mon Aug 10 00:14:41 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Notes on Grube Annelid paper of 1877, S. M. S. "Gazelle" Message-ID: <4A80519E.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> Hi all, Some notes that might help if you have cause to look at (or for) Grube's "Gazelle" polychaete descriptions. In this he describes the significant Kerguelen taxa Laetmonice producta, & Aglaophamus trissophyllus (as Nephthys), amongst others. The Gazelle expedition observed the transit of Venus in 1874 at Iles Kerguelen. There are worms from a scattering of other places though. In Hartman's 1951 "Literature" blue book, p.104-05, she had two references for Grube (1877) "Gazelle" polychaetes, namely ref no's 56 & 57. I think 57 is just an incorrect variant of 56. In the old Ward & Fauchald online bibliography at http://134.60.85.50:591/PolyDB/FMPro there are also 2 variants, not too far from the correct, at record no's 10696 & 6343. I think these should be combined / treated as the same. In WoRMs I think these two citation and species list entries should be combined:- http://www.marinespecies.org/aphia.php?p=sourcedetails&id=50053 http://www.marinespecies.org/aphia.php?p=sourcedetails&id=50100 Grube's paper is digitised online, but is extremely difficult to find. Format variants at: http://www.archive.org/details/monatsberichted03berlgoog Downloadable versions at: http://ia301543.us.archive.org/0/items/monatsberichted03berlgoog/ Online start is: http://www.archive.org/stream/monatsberichted03berlgoog#page/n558/ The citation should probably be something like: Grube A-E 1877. Anneliden-Ausbeut S.M.S. Gazelle. Die von der Gazelle (Capitain von Schleinitz) mitgebrachten Anneliden, zu denen noch zwei von Dr. Buchholz gesammelte kommen. Monatsberichte der K?niglich preussischen Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Berlin : 509-554. Alternatively omit the first sentence. I have no opinion on a publication date of 1878 versus 1877 - paper was presented in August 1877. Geoff -- Geoff Read http://www.annelida.net/ http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa *************************** NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research Ltd. From Brigitte.Ebbe from senckenberg.de Mon Aug 10 03:53:31 2009 From: Brigitte.Ebbe from senckenberg.de (Brigitte Ebbe) Date: Mon Aug 10 05:19:45 2009 Subject: Antw: Re: [Annelida] Reference request Message-ID: <4A7FFC2B0200000400000E90@senckenberg.de> Dear Bryony and Geoff, I happen to have hard copies of David's publications, and if I can find them I'll be happy to send them to you on loan if there is nobody in the UK to help you. It's a pity that these very extensive papers on sabellariids are so hard to get- I had no idea how lucky I actually am to have them. Worm wishes to all Brigitte Brigitte Ebbe Senckenberg am Meer Deutsches Zentrum f?r Marine Biodiversit?tsforschung/German Centre for Marine Biodiversity Research CeDAMar c/o Zoologisches Forschungsmuseum Alexander Koenig Adenauerallee 160 D53113 Bonn Tel. +49.228.9122-285 bebbe@senckenberg.de >>> "Geoff Read" 10.08.09 3.34 Uhr >>> Hi Bryony & all, Well that is a surprise. Even the UK Natural History Museum Library doesn't have Kirtley's book in the online catalogue, and I couldn't see any second hand copies today online. In worldcat the nearest holding library to you appears to be in the Netherlands (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/31852807). It was privately published by the author and David Kirtley is no longer with us as you probably know. It will be still in copyright obviously & is before the pdf era arrived. However, a number of polychaete workers will have personal copies. Maybe someone in the UK could loan their hard copy to you? Not much advice beyond those suggestions. Sorry. Geoff >>> On 9/08/2009 at 11:32 p.m., Bryony Pearce wrote: > Dear All, [...] > The other is a book which no one seems to have in stock, including the > British Library; > > Kirtley, 1994. A review and taxonomic revision of the family > Sabellariidae johnston 1865 (Annelida: Polychaeta) Sabecon Press Science > Series Vol 1. Florida 223pp. > > If anyone has electronic copies of these or has any idea where I might > locate them it would be much appreciated!! -- Geoff Read http://www.annelida.net/ http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa *************************** NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research Ltd. _______________________________________________ Annelida mailing list Post: Annelida@net.bio.net Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida Resources: http://www.annelida.net From jablake9 from gmail.com Mon Aug 10 20:59:43 2009 From: jablake9 from gmail.com (James Blake) Date: Mon Aug 10 21:04:59 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Reference request In-Reply-To: <4A802049.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> References: <4A7EB3D1.9010509@seasurvey.co.uk> <4A802049.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> Message-ID: <663258900908101859nf12692dt55e54eb3b885a9c6@mail.gmail.com> I too have a copy of Kirtley's book and on the inside there is the following information: SABECON Press--Science Series P.O. Box 2713 Vero Beach, Florida 32961-2713 Phone: 407-567-4417 - FAX 407-778-2716 Price US $61.50 per copy plus postage I suggest that an inquiry be made here. Try the FAX. According David Kirtley's notes, there were an initial 1000 copies printed. I suggest that some are still around. Jim Blake On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Geoff Read wrote: > Hi Bryony & all, > > Well that is a surprise. Even the UK Natural History Museum Library doesn't > have Kirtley's book in the online catalogue, and I couldn't see any second > hand copies today online. In worldcat the nearest holding library to you > appears to be in the Netherlands (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/31852807). > It was privately published by the author and David Kirtley is no longer > with us as you probably know. It will be still in copyright obviously & is > before the pdf era arrived. However, a number of polychaete workers will > have personal copies. Maybe someone in the UK could loan their hard copy to > you? > > Not much advice beyond those suggestions. Sorry. > > Geoff > > >>> On 9/08/2009 at 11:32 p.m., Bryony Pearce > wrote: > > Dear All, > [...] > > The other is a book which no one seems to have in stock, including the > > British Library; > > > > Kirtley, 1994. A review and taxonomic revision of the family > > Sabellariidae johnston 1865 (Annelida: Polychaeta) Sabecon Press Science > > Series Vol 1. Florida 223pp. > > > > If anyone has electronic copies of these or has any idea where I might > > locate them it would be much appreciated!! > -- > > Geoff Read > http://www.annelida.net/ > http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa > *************************** > > > NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric > Research Ltd. > > _______________________________________________ > Annelida mailing list > Post: Annelida@net.bio.net > Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida > Resources: http://www.annelida.net > -- James A. Blake, Ph.D. Marine & Coastal Center AECOM Environment, NE Region 89 Water Street Woods Hole, Massachusetts 02543 Tel: 508-457-7900; FAX: 5008-457-7595 E-Mail: James.Blake@aecom.com and jablake9@gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090810/73a0fa69/attachment.html From boylem from hawaii.edu Fri Aug 14 15:31:46 2009 From: boylem from hawaii.edu (Michael Boyle) Date: Fri Aug 14 16:39:39 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Enders 1909 Message-ID: Aloha Annelida, Do any of you have a digital copy of the following: Enders, H. E. 1909. A study of the life-history and habits of Chaetopterus variopedatus. J. Morph. 20: 479-531 I would be very grateful to anyone who can send me a copy. Thank you ! Michael ------------------------------------------ Michael J Boyle PhD Candidate Department of Zoology University of Hawai'i at Manoa Kewalo Marine Laboratory 41 Ahui Street Honolulu, HI 96813 808-539-7323 boylem@hawaii.edu ------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090814/5a0e7894/attachment.html From contigabriele from gmail.com Sat Aug 15 03:21:05 2009 From: contigabriele from gmail.com (Gabriele Conti) Date: Sat Aug 15 15:26:55 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Enders 1909 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37c27c270908150121q3e87c752p9ca25c1c41061745@mail.gmail.com> Dear Michael, you could find the Enders's paper here: http://www.archive.org/details/journalofmorphol20wist Best wishes Gabriele Dr Gabriele Conti PhD Electron Microscopy Laboratory Department of Cytomorphology University of Cagliari Cittadella Universitaria I-09042 Monserrato (CA) Italy Tel: 39 070 6754024 Fax: 39 070 6754003 From jablake9 from gmail.com Sat Aug 15 18:07:58 2009 From: jablake9 from gmail.com (James Blake) Date: Sat Aug 15 18:23:58 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Enders 1909 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <663258900908151607r1b632ebcg98a527ec6fa2e063@mail.gmail.com> Michael, You can obtain this on-line at the *Biodiversity Heritage Library* site. Go to: http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/ Click on titles and J. Then browse to Journal of Morphology. Link to vol. 20, click it on and scroll to the text page before 480 and you will come up with p. 479. I think you have to down load each page separately; or you can download the entire issue in different formats. Either way, you can obtain it yourself. Jim Blake On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Michael Boyle wrote: > Aloha Annelida, > Do any of you have a digital copy of the following: *Enders, H. E. 1909. > A study of the life-history and habits of **Chaetopterus variopedatus**. > **J. Morph**. *20*: 479-531* > > I would be very grateful to anyone who can send me a copy. > > Thank you ! > > > Michael > > ------------------------------------------ > Michael J Boyle > PhD Candidate > Department of Zoology > University of Hawai'i at Manoa > Kewalo Marine Laboratory > 41 Ahui Street > Honolulu, HI 96813 > > 808-539-7323 > boylem@hawaii.edu > ------------------------------------------ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Annelida mailing list > Post: Annelida@net.bio.net > Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida > Resources: http://www.annelida.net > -- James A. Blake, Ph.D. Marine & Coastal Center AECOM Environment, NE Region 89 Water Street Woods Hole, Massachusetts 02543 Tel: 508-457-7900; FAX: 5008-457-7595 E-Mail: James.Blake@aecom.com and jablake9@gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090815/0df631b0/attachment.html From boylem from hawaii.edu Sat Aug 15 19:22:54 2009 From: boylem from hawaii.edu (Michael Boyle) Date: Sat Aug 15 21:53:05 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Enders 1909 In-Reply-To: <663258900908151607r1b632ebcg98a527ec6fa2e063@mail.gmail.com> References: <663258900908151607r1b632ebcg98a527ec6fa2e063@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556535B1-791D-46DA-B139-ADC162FDEEE2@hawaii.edu> Thanks Jim ! And many thanks to all the folks who sent links or .pdf files of the document. Once again, the annelida group proves to be a generous and efficient resource. Michael Kewalo Marine Laboratory Honolulu, Hawaii On Aug 15, 2009, at 1:07 PM, James Blake wrote: > Michael, > > You can obtain this on-line at the Biodiversity Heritage Library site. > > Go to: http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/ > > Click on titles and J. > > Then browse to Journal of Morphology. Link to vol. 20, click it on > and scroll to the text page before 480 and you will come up with p. > 479. I think you have to down load each page separately; or you can > download the entire issue in different formats. Either way, you can > obtain it yourself. > > Jim Blake > > > > > On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Michael Boyle > wrote: > Aloha Annelida, > > Do any of you have a digital copy of the following: Enders, H. E. > 1909. A study of the life-history and habits of Chaetopterus > variopedatus. J. Morph. 20: 479-531 > > I would be very grateful to anyone who can send me a copy. > > Thank you ! > > > Michael > > ------------------------------------------ > Michael J Boyle > PhD Candidate > Department of Zoology > University of Hawai'i at Manoa > Kewalo Marine Laboratory > 41 Ahui Street > Honolulu, HI 96813 > > 808-539-7323 > boylem@hawaii.edu > ------------------------------------------ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Annelida mailing list > Post: Annelida@net.bio.net > Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida > Resources: http://www.annelida.net > > > > -- > James A. Blake, Ph.D. > Marine & Coastal Center > AECOM Environment, NE Region > 89 Water Street > Woods Hole, Massachusetts 02543 > Tel: 508-457-7900; FAX: 5008-457-7595 > E-Mail: James.Blake@aecom.com and > jablake9@gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090815/120c8749/attachment.html From g.read from niwa.co.nz Wed Aug 19 16:15:40 2009 From: g.read from niwa.co.nz (Geoff Read) Date: Wed Aug 19 16:19:43 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Walcott's Burgess Shale centenary Message-ID: <4A8D143B.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> FYI On Saturday 28 August 1909, Charles Doolittle Walcott went up to Burgess Pass in the Yoho National Park, British Columbia and happened upon some odd fossils. This week's Nature has a commentary on what has happened since. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/460952a Desmond Collins 2009. Misadventures in the Burgess Shale. Nature 460, 20 August 2009: 952-953. By the end of Walcott?s final excavation in 1917, he had collected some 65,000 fossils of exquisite preservation. Their assignment to higher taxon levels has been famously changeable and much publicised over the years (per Gould's 'Wonderful Life' & Conway Morris's 'The crucible of creation"), but according to the article only one of the 12 fossil taxa he placed as annelids remains today in Phylum Annelida. Collins doesn't say which, but it might be Wiwaxia, although its placement is still controversial - see the Wikipedia article on the genus for more info. Geoff -- Geoff Read http://www.annelida.net/ http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa *************************** NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research Ltd. From g.read from niwa.co.nz Wed Aug 19 21:03:46 2009 From: g.read from niwa.co.nz (Geoff Read) Date: Wed Aug 19 21:06:18 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Walcott's Burgess Shale centenary In-Reply-To: <4A8D143B.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> References: <4A8D143B.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> Message-ID: <4A8D57C1.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> >>> On 20/08/2009 at 9:15 a.m., "Geoff Read" wrote: > [...] according to the > article only one of the 12 fossil taxa he placed as annelids remains > today in Phylum Annelida. Collins doesn't say which, but it might be > Wiwaxia, although its placement is still controversial - see the > Wikipedia article on the genus for more info. Correction. With a bit more time to look, the mention was more likely intended for Canadia spinosa, with Wiwaxia corrugata still an orphan looking for home 'phylum' neighbourhoods, that perhaps being nearer the ancestors to Mollusca. Geoff -- Geoff Read http://www.annelida.net/ http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa *************************** NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research Ltd. From g.read from niwa.co.nz Sat Aug 22 02:54:57 2009 From: g.read from niwa.co.nz (Geoff Read) Date: Sat Aug 22 02:57:27 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer Message-ID: <4A904D0F.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> FYI Osborn KJ, Haddock SHD, Pleijel F, Madin LP, Rouse GW 2009. Deep-Sea, Swimming Worms with Luminescent "Bombs". Science 325: 964 (and online 'supplement'). http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/citmgr?gca=sci;325/5943/964 Swima bombiviridis named (new genus, new species of acrocirrid) Abstract: "By using remotely operated vehicles, we found seven previously unknown species of swimming annelid worms below 1800 meters. Specimens were large and bore a variety of elaborate head appendages. In addition, five species have pairs of ellipsoidal organs homologous to branchiae that produce brilliant green bioluminescence when autotomized. Five genes were used to determine the evolutionary relationships of these worms within Cirratuliformia. These species form a clade within Acrocirridae and were not closely related to either of the two known pelagic cirratuliforms. Thus, this clade represents a third invasion of the pelagic realm from Cirratuliformia. This finding emphasizes the wealth of discoveries to be made in pelagic and deep demersal habitats." Nice discovery. I want to know what they feed on, and how. Geoff -- Geoff Read http://www.annelida.net/ http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa *************************** NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research Ltd. From kfitzhug from nhm.org Sat Aug 22 03:30:37 2009 From: kfitzhug from nhm.org (Kirk Fitzhugh) Date: Sat Aug 22 11:00:27 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer References: <4A904D0F.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> Message-ID: Nice discoveries indeed. It's unfortunate that the scientific merits of the phylogenetic hypotheses are dubious at best. But then, it *is* published in Science. ;-) Kirk -----Original Message----- From: annelida-bounces@oat.bio.indiana.edu on behalf of Geoff Read Sent: Sat 8/22/2009 12:54 AM To: http://www.annelida.net/ http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa *************************** NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research Ltd. _______________________________________________ Annelida mailing list Post: Annelida@net.bio.net Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida Resources: http://www.annelida.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090822/88b4f0e0/attachment.html From jablake9 from gmail.com Sat Aug 22 13:57:08 2009 From: jablake9 from gmail.com (James Blake) Date: Sat Aug 22 15:57:35 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer In-Reply-To: <4A904D0F.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> References: <4A904D0F.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> Message-ID: <663258900908221157m752700cbre241feb761e01290@mail.gmail.com> As a scientist interested in deep-sea ecology and polychaetes in particular, I found this to be one of the most interesting discoveries in quite some time. I had a chance to see some of Karen's examples during a short visit to Scripps last year, but had no idea that so many new taxa (7) had been discovered by her team. Given the relatively small geographic area sampled, this suggests that many more species are awaiting discovery. The second video shows numerous specimens swimming near the seafloor which raises questions regarding their mode of life. Although there is no evidence that they are predatory, I wonder if they might be feeding on epi-benthic organisms such as cumaceans and mysids that swim just above the sediment-water interface. The Acrocirridae are proving to be much more diverse than previously believed. In our studies of deep-sea benthos, I have identified something like 15 distinct species of *Flabelligella sensu lato *(with 0, 1, 2, ?3 pairs of branchiae) from around North America, ca. 2/3 are undescribed. It is interesting that that Karen's new pelagic taxa do not have the compound setae that characterize their benthic counterparts. Congratulations to the authors, I look forward to seeing more results. Jim Blake On 8/22/09, Geoff Read wrote: > > FYI > > Osborn KJ, Haddock SHD, Pleijel F, Madin LP, Rouse GW 2009. Deep-Sea, > Swimming Worms with Luminescent "Bombs". Science 325: 964 (and online > 'supplement'). > > http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/citmgr?gca=sci;325/5943/964 > > Swima bombiviridis named (new genus, new species of acrocirrid) > > Abstract: "By using remotely operated vehicles, we found seven previously > unknown species of swimming annelid worms below 1800 meters. Specimens were > large and bore a variety of elaborate head appendages. In addition, five > species have pairs of ellipsoidal organs homologous to branchiae that > produce brilliant green bioluminescence when autotomized. Five genes were > used to determine the evolutionary relationships of these worms within > Cirratuliformia. These species form a clade within Acrocirridae and were not > closely related to either of the two known pelagic cirratuliforms. Thus, > this clade represents a third invasion of the pelagic realm from > Cirratuliformia. This finding emphasizes the wealth of discoveries to be > made in pelagic and deep demersal habitats." > > > Nice discovery. I want to know what they feed on, and how. > > Geoff > > > -- > > Geoff Read > http://www.annelida.net/ > http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa > *************************** > > > NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric > Research Ltd. > > _______________________________________________ > Annelida mailing list > Post: Annelida@net.bio.net > Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida > Resources: http://www.annelida.net > -- James A. Blake, Ph.D. Marine & Coastal Center AECOM Environment, NE Region 89 Water Street Woods Hole, Massachusetts 02543 Tel: 508-457-7900; FAX: 5008-457-7595 E-Mail: James.Blake@aecom.com and jablake9@gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090822/f04e7c6a/attachment.html From Torsten.Struck from Biologie.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE Sat Aug 22 16:02:50 2009 From: Torsten.Struck from Biologie.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (Struck, Torsten) Date: Sat Aug 22 16:03:56 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <263E84B5DC854F4C92307908F8E054FD4EEF00@XCH.biologie.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE> Indeed, it is a nice discovery and very interesting. Moreover, the phylogenetic hypotheses are very solid (not at all "dubios at best") and good in comparison to several other analyses out there. Nice work Karen, Torsten. On 8/22/09 10:30 AM, "Kirk Fitzhugh" wrote: > Nice discoveries indeed. It's unfortunate that the scientific merits of the > phylogenetic hypotheses are dubious at best. But then, it *is* published in > Science. ;-) > > Kirk > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: annelida-bounces@oat.bio.indiana.edu on behalf of Geoff Read > Sent: Sat 8/22/2009 12:54 AM > To: Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer > > FYI > > Osborn KJ, Haddock SHD, Pleijel F, Madin LP, Rouse GW 2009. Deep-Sea, Swimming > Worms with Luminescent "Bombs". Science 325: 964 (and online 'supplement'). > > http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/citmgr?gca=sci;325/5943/964 > > Swima bombiviridis named (new genus, new species of acrocirrid) > > Abstract: "By using remotely operated vehicles, we found seven previously > unknown species of swimming annelid worms below 1800 meters. Specimens were > large and bore a variety of elaborate head appendages. In addition, five > species have pairs of ellipsoidal organs homologous to branchiae that produce > brilliant green bioluminescence when autotomized. Five genes were used to > determine the evolutionary relationships of these worms within > Cirratuliformia. These species form a clade within Acrocirridae and were not > closely related to either of the two known pelagic cirratuliforms. Thus, this > clade represents a third invasion of the pelagic realm from Cirratuliformia. > This finding emphasizes the wealth of discoveries to be made in pelagic and > deep demersal habitats." > > > Nice discovery. I want to know what they feed on, and how. > > Geoff > > > -- > > Geoff Read > http://www.annelida.net/ > http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa > *************************** > > > NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric > Research Ltd. > > _______________________________________________ > Annelida mailing list > Post: Annelida@net.bio.net > Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida > Resources: http://www.annelida.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Annelida mailing list > Post: Annelida@net.bio.net > Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida > Resources: http://www.annelida.net ------ CONTACT INFORMATION ------ PD Dr. habil. Torsten H. Struck University of Osnabr?ck Department of Biology/Chemistry Zoology Barbarastrasse 11 D-49069 Osnabr?ck Germany Phone: +49-541-9693450 Fax: +49-541-9692587 e-mail: struck@biologie.uni-osnabrueck.de From kfitzhugh from nhm.org Sat Aug 22 16:15:29 2009 From: kfitzhugh from nhm.org (J. Kirk Fitzhugh) Date: Sat Aug 22 16:43:32 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer] Message-ID: <4A905FF1.1000304@nhm.org> The phylogenetic hypotheses are only 'solid' insofar as they explain a limited set of sequence data. Given that the authors must know they are actively avoiding considering all sorts of other relevant data that are in need of being explained in the same context, e.g. the setae as Jim Blake noted, and the use of Bayes Theorem is not meant for the inference of hypotheses, then Torsten's endorsement is ill-founded at best. But then, let's not quibble with the fine points of doing good science - it's more important to impose blind acceptance of methods by even more blind endorsement. Kirk Struck, Torsten wrote: > Indeed, it is a nice discovery and very interesting. Moreover, the > phylogenetic hypotheses are very solid (not at all "dubios at best") and > good in comparison to several other analyses out there. > > Nice work Karen, > > Torsten. > > > On 8/22/09 10:30 AM, "Kirk Fitzhugh" wrote: > > >> Nice discoveries indeed. It's unfortunate that the scientific merits of the >> phylogenetic hypotheses are dubious at best. But then, it *is* published in >> Science. ;-) >> >> Kirk >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: annelida-bounces@oat.bio.indiana.edu on behalf of Geoff Read >> Sent: Sat 8/22/2009 12:54 AM >> To: > Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer >> >> FYI >> >> Osborn KJ, Haddock SHD, Pleijel F, Madin LP, Rouse GW 2009. Deep-Sea, Swimming >> Worms with Luminescent "Bombs". Science 325: 964 (and online 'supplement'). >> >> http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/citmgr?gca=sci;325/5943/964 >> >> Swima bombiviridis named (new genus, new species of acrocirrid) >> >> Abstract: "By using remotely operated vehicles, we found seven previously >> unknown species of swimming annelid worms below 1800 meters. Specimens were >> large and bore a variety of elaborate head appendages. In addition, five >> species have pairs of ellipsoidal organs homologous to branchiae that produce >> brilliant green bioluminescence when autotomized. Five genes were used to >> determine the evolutionary relationships of these worms within >> Cirratuliformia. These species form a clade within Acrocirridae and were not >> closely related to either of the two known pelagic cirratuliforms. Thus, this >> clade represents a third invasion of the pelagic realm from Cirratuliformia. >> This finding emphasizes the wealth of discoveries to be made in pelagic and >> deep demersal habitats." >> >> >> Nice discovery. I want to know what they feed on, and how. >> >> Geoff >> >> >> -- >> >> Geoff Read >> http://www.annelida.net/ >> http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa >> *************************** >> >> >> NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric >> Research Ltd. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Annelida mailing list >> Post: Annelida@net.bio.net >> Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida >> Resources: http://www.annelida.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Annelida mailing list >> Post: Annelida@net.bio.net >> Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida >> Resources: http://www.annelida.net >> > > > ------ CONTACT INFORMATION ------ > PD Dr. habil. Torsten H. Struck > University of Osnabr?ck > Department of Biology/Chemistry > Zoology > Barbarastrasse 11 > D-49069 Osnabr?ck > Germany > > Phone: +49-541-9693450 > Fax: +49-541-9692587 > e-mail: struck@biologie.uni-osnabrueck.de -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090822/8a8709ca/attachment.html From grouse from ucsd.edu Sat Aug 22 17:53:29 2009 From: grouse from ucsd.edu (Greg Rouse) Date: Sat Aug 22 18:15:09 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer] In-Reply-To: <4A905FF1.1000304@nhm.org> References: <4A905FF1.1000304@nhm.org> Message-ID: <42EC96C3-03DA-429A-8CF1-045E56909472@ucsd.edu> Kirk, Please consult the Supplement for details on a maximum parsimony analysis that I assume you would not find dubious. A total evidence analysis (i.e., a "limited set of sequence data", plus what must also be called a "limited set" of morphological data) will appear in due course that may alleviate your other concern. greg On Aug 23, 2009, at 7:15 AM, J. Kirk Fitzhugh wrote: > The phylogenetic hypotheses are only 'solid' insofar as they explain > a limited set of sequence data. Given that the authors must know > they are actively avoiding considering all sorts of other relevant > data that are in need of being explained in the same context, e.g. > the setae as Jim Blake noted, and the use of Bayes Theorem is not > meant for the inference of hypotheses, then Torsten's endorsement is > ill-founded at best. > > But then, let's not quibble with the fine points of doing good > science - it's more important to impose blind acceptance of methods > by even more blind endorsement. > > Kirk > > Struck, Torsten wrote: >> >> Indeed, it is a nice discovery and very interesting. Moreover, the >> phylogenetic hypotheses are very solid (not at all "dubios at >> best") and >> good in comparison to several other analyses out there. >> >> Nice work Karen, >> >> Torsten. >> >> >> On 8/22/09 10:30 AM, "Kirk Fitzhugh" wrote: >> >> >>> Nice discoveries indeed. It's unfortunate that the scientific >>> merits of the >>> phylogenetic hypotheses are dubious at best. But then, it *is* >>> published in >>> Science. ;-) >>> >>> Kirk >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: annelida-bounces@oat.bio.indiana.edu on behalf of Geoff Read >>> Sent: Sat 8/22/2009 12:54 AM >>> To: >> Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer >>> >>> FYI >>> >>> Osborn KJ, Haddock SHD, Pleijel F, Madin LP, Rouse GW 2009. Deep- >>> Sea, Swimming >>> Worms with Luminescent "Bombs". Science 325: 964 (and online >>> 'supplement'). >>> >>> http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/citmgr?gca=sci;325/5943/964 >>> >>> Swima bombiviridis named (new genus, new species of acrocirrid) >>> >>> Abstract: "By using remotely operated vehicles, we found seven >>> previously >>> unknown species of swimming annelid worms below 1800 meters. >>> Specimens were >>> large and bore a variety of elaborate head appendages. In >>> addition, five >>> species have pairs of ellipsoidal organs homologous to branchiae >>> that produce >>> brilliant green bioluminescence when autotomized. Five genes were >>> used to >>> determine the evolutionary relationships of these worms within >>> Cirratuliformia. These species form a clade within Acrocirridae >>> and were not >>> closely related to either of the two known pelagic cirratuliforms. >>> Thus, this >>> clade represents a third invasion of the pelagic realm from >>> Cirratuliformia. >>> This finding emphasizes the wealth of discoveries to be made in >>> pelagic and >>> deep demersal habitats." >>> >>> >>> Nice discovery. I want to know what they feed on, and how. >>> >>> Geoff >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Geoff Read >>> http://www.annelida.net/ >>> http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa >>> *************************** >>> >>> >>> NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & >>> Atmospheric >>> Research Ltd. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Annelida mailing list >>> Post: Annelida@net.bio.net >>> Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida >>> Resources: http://www.annelida.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Annelida mailing list >>> Post: Annelida@net.bio.net >>> Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida >>> Resources: http://www.annelida.net >>> >> >> >> ------ CONTACT INFORMATION ------ >> PD Dr. habil. Torsten H. Struck >> University of Osnabr?ck >> Department of Biology/Chemistry >> Zoology >> Barbarastrasse 11 >> D-49069 Osnabr?ck >> Germany >> >> Phone: +49-541-9693450 >> Fax: +49-541-9692587 >> e-mail: struck@biologie.uni-osnabrueck.de > > Greg Rouse Scripps Institution of Oceanography, UCSD 9500 Gilman Drive La Jolla CA, 92093-0202 USA http://spineless.ucsd.edu/ e-mail: grouse@ucsd.edu Office Ph: +1 858 534 7973 Lab Ph: +1 858 534 9941 Fax: +1 858 534 7313 Courier delivery address: Scripps Institution of Oceanography 8750 Biological Grade 2170 Hubbs Hall La Jolla, CA 92037 USA ............................................................................. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090823/493a4b40/attachment.html From kfitzhugh from nhm.org Sat Aug 22 18:41:43 2009 From: kfitzhugh from nhm.org (J. Kirk Fitzhugh) Date: Sat Aug 22 19:35:50 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer] In-Reply-To: <42EC96C3-03DA-429A-8CF1-045E56909472@ucsd.edu> References: <4A905FF1.1000304@nhm.org> <42EC96C3-03DA-429A-8CF1-045E56909472@ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <4A908237.6020209@nhm.org> Thanks Greg. No matter what method is used, be it 'parsimony,' quasi-Bayesianism, etc., I would never accept the results when I know there are other relevant data that need to be considered. In lieu of even publishing a cladogram using the sequence data, it would have been appropriate to wait on the formal phylogenetics until the relevant data are compiled. There is no such thing as 'total evidence' analyses - an inference either considers one's available relevant evidence for the sake of maximizing rationality of explanation, or they opt for accepting that the results are going to be more irrational. But since you mention it, I'm also deeply concerned at the fact that systematists routinely publish phylogenetic hypotheses using a variety of different methods, often with contradictory results, regardless of what data are used. Why do it? We can't compare the results because they're inferred from very different assumptions regarding theories, and no one has ever provided any good empirical arguments for the practice. It seems we've lost sight (or maybe never had it) of why those trees are produced in the first place, and are too enamored with the fact that computers can produce branching diagrams whenever we want 'em. I'm sorry for coming across so critically, but, we have to face the fact that a critical attitude toward phylogenetics is just plain absent. It's a dangerous situation when a field of science becomes so complacent that any sort of method is acceptable and in fact condoned. Kirk Greg Rouse wrote: > Kirk, > Please consult the Supplement for details on a maximum parsimony > analysis that I assume you would not find dubious. A total evidence > analysis (i.e., a "limited set of sequence data", plus what must also > be called a "limited set" of morphological data) will appear in due > course that may alleviate your other concern. > greg > > On Aug 23, 2009, at 7:15 AM, J. Kirk Fitzhugh wrote: > >> The phylogenetic hypotheses are only 'solid' insofar as they explain >> a limited set of sequence data. Given that the authors must know they >> are actively avoiding considering all sorts of other relevant data >> that are in need of being explained in the same context, e.g. the >> setae as Jim Blake noted, and the use of Bayes Theorem is not meant >> for the inference of hypotheses, then Torsten's endorsement is >> ill-founded at best. >> >> But then, let's not quibble with the fine points of doing good >> science - it's more important to impose blind acceptance of methods >> by even more blind endorsement. >> >> Kirk >> >> Struck, Torsten wrote: >>> Indeed, it is a nice discovery and very interesting. Moreover, the >>> phylogenetic hypotheses are very solid (not at all "dubios at best") and >>> good in comparison to several other analyses out there. >>> >>> Nice work Karen, >>> >>> Torsten. >>> >>> >>> On 8/22/09 10:30 AM, "Kirk Fitzhugh" wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Nice discoveries indeed. It's unfortunate that the scientific merits of the >>>> phylogenetic hypotheses are dubious at best. But then, it *is* published in >>>> Science. ;-) >>>> >>>> Kirk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: annelida-bounces@oat.bio.indiana.edu on behalf of Geoff Read >>>> Sent: Sat 8/22/2009 12:54 AM >>>> To: >>> Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer >>>> >>>> FYI >>>> >>>> Osborn KJ, Haddock SHD, Pleijel F, Madin LP, Rouse GW 2009. Deep-Sea, Swimming >>>> Worms with Luminescent "Bombs". Science 325: 964 (and online 'supplement'). >>>> >>>> http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/citmgr?gca=sci;325/5943/964 >>>> >>>> Swima bombiviridis named (new genus, new species of acrocirrid) >>>> >>>> Abstract: "By using remotely operated vehicles, we found seven previously >>>> unknown species of swimming annelid worms below 1800 meters. Specimens were >>>> large and bore a variety of elaborate head appendages. In addition, five >>>> species have pairs of ellipsoidal organs homologous to branchiae that produce >>>> brilliant green bioluminescence when autotomized. Five genes were used to >>>> determine the evolutionary relationships of these worms within >>>> Cirratuliformia. These species form a clade within Acrocirridae and were not >>>> closely related to either of the two known pelagic cirratuliforms. Thus, this >>>> clade represents a third invasion of the pelagic realm from Cirratuliformia. >>>> This finding emphasizes the wealth of discoveries to be made in pelagic and >>>> deep demersal habitats." >>>> >>>> >>>> Nice discovery. I want to know what they feed on, and how. >>>> >>>> Geoff >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Geoff Read >>>> http://www.annelida.net/ >>>> http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa >>>> *************************** >>>> >>>> >>>> NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric >>>> Research Ltd. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Annelida mailing list >>>> Post: Annelida@net.bio.net >>>> Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida >>>> Resources: http://www.annelida.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Annelida mailing list >>>> Post: Annelida@net.bio.net >>>> Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida >>>> Resources: http://www.annelida.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------ CONTACT INFORMATION ------ >>> PD Dr. habil. Torsten H. Struck >>> University of Osnabr?ck >>> Department of Biology/Chemistry >>> Zoology >>> Barbarastrasse 11 >>> D-49069 Osnabr?ck >>> Germany >>> >>> Phone: +49-541-9693450 >>> Fax: +49-541-9692587 >>> e-mail: struck@biologie.uni-osnabrueck.de >> >> > > Greg Rouse > Scripps Institution of Oceanography, UCSD > 9500 Gilman Drive > La Jolla CA, 92093-0202 > USA > > http://spineless.ucsd.edu/ > > e-mail: grouse@ucsd.edu > Office Ph: +1 858 534 7973 > Lab Ph: +1 858 534 9941 > Fax: +1 858 534 7313 > > Courier delivery address: > Scripps Institution of Oceanography > 8750 Biological Grade > 2170 Hubbs Hall > La Jolla, CA 92037 > USA > ............................................................................. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Annelida mailing list > Post: Annelida@net.bio.net > Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida > Resources: http://www.annelida.net -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Kirk Fitzhugh, Ph.D. Curator of Polychaetes Invertebrate Zoology Section Research & Collections Branch Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County 900 Exposition Blvd Los Angeles CA 90007 Phone: 213-763-3233 FAX: 213-746-2999 e-mail: kfitzhug@nhm.org http://www.nhm.org/research/annelida/staff.html http://www.nhm.org/research/annelida/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090822/6ecce071/attachment.html From grouse from ucsd.edu Sat Aug 22 20:20:01 2009 From: grouse from ucsd.edu (Greg Rouse) Date: Sat Aug 22 20:44:05 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer] In-Reply-To: <4A908237.6020209@nhm.org> References: <4A905FF1.1000304@nhm.org> <42EC96C3-03DA-429A-8CF1-045E56909472@ucsd.edu> <4A908237.6020209@nhm.org> Message-ID: <449C2ED5-647A-4DA2-9BE5-DD1B27CB60C6@ucsd.edu> Hi Kirk, There are always compromises made when one is constructing papers. Otherwise we would never publish anything; endlessly waiting until we had assembled all the data that is deemed necessary by purists. Phylogenetics is an iterative process and we all felt that the sequence data analysis, which incidentally will swamp any morphological dataset when its finished, was worth putting out as short note for a broad audience. A more complete detailed analysis and assessment, for digestion by the true friends of annelids, will appear in an appropriate journal in due course, and will no doubt pass unmentioned in this forum. The methods we used produced congruent results with reference to the establishment and position of Swima, and so should satisfy phylogeneticists of various philosophies, with the exception of you of course. If we had published only the parsimony analysis, we would have expected similar disparaging rants from those who prefer model-based approaches. Being pluralistic does not diminish rigor or concern for evidence. best, greg On Aug 23, 2009, at 9:41 AM, J. Kirk Fitzhugh wrote: > Thanks Greg. No matter what method is used, be it 'parsimony,' quasi- > Bayesianism, etc., I would never accept the results when I know > there are other relevant data that need to be considered. In lieu of > even publishing a cladogram using the sequence data, it would have > been appropriate to wait on the formal phylogenetics until the > relevant data are compiled. There is no such thing as 'total > evidence' analyses - an inference either considers one's available > relevant evidence for the sake of maximizing rationality of > explanation, or they opt for accepting that the results are going to > be more irrational. > > But since you mention it, I'm also deeply concerned at the fact that > systematists routinely publish phylogenetic hypotheses using a > variety of different methods, often with contradictory results, > regardless of what data are used. Why do it? We can't compare the > results because they're inferred from very different assumptions > regarding theories, and no one has ever provided any good empirical > arguments for the practice. It seems we've lost sight (or maybe > never had it) of why those trees are produced in the first place, > and are too enamored with the fact that computers can produce > branching diagrams whenever we want 'em. > > I'm sorry for coming across so critically, but, we have to face the > fact that a critical attitude toward phylogenetics is just plain > absent. It's a dangerous situation when a field of science becomes > so complacent that any sort of method is acceptable and in fact > condoned. > > Kirk > > Greg Rouse wrote: >> >> Kirk, >> Please consult the Supplement for details on a maximum parsimony >> analysis that I assume you would not find dubious. A total evidence >> analysis (i.e., a "limited set of sequence data", plus what must >> also be called a "limited set" of morphological data) will appear >> in due course that may alleviate your other concern. >> greg >> >> On Aug 23, 2009, at 7:15 AM, J. Kirk Fitzhugh wrote: >> >>> The phylogenetic hypotheses are only 'solid' insofar as they >>> explain a limited set of sequence data. Given that the authors >>> must know they are actively avoiding considering all sorts of >>> other relevant data that are in need of being explained in the >>> same context, e.g. the setae as Jim Blake noted, and the use of >>> Bayes Theorem is not meant for the inference of hypotheses, then >>> Torsten's endorsement is ill-founded at best. >>> >>> But then, let's not quibble with the fine points of doing good >>> science - it's more important to impose blind acceptance of >>> methods by even more blind endorsement. >>> >>> Kirk >>> >>> Struck, Torsten wrote: >>>> >>>> Indeed, it is a nice discovery and very interesting. Moreover, the >>>> phylogenetic hypotheses are very solid (not at all "dubios at >>>> best") and >>>> good in comparison to several other analyses out there. >>>> >>>> Nice work Karen, >>>> >>>> Torsten. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8/22/09 10:30 AM, "Kirk Fitzhugh" wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Nice discoveries indeed. It's unfortunate that the scientific >>>>> merits of the >>>>> phylogenetic hypotheses are dubious at best. But then, it *is* >>>>> published in >>>>> Science. ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Kirk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: annelida-bounces@oat.bio.indiana.edu on behalf of Geoff Read >>>>> Sent: Sat 8/22/2009 12:54 AM >>>>> To: >>>> Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer >>>>> >>>>> FYI >>>>> >>>>> Osborn KJ, Haddock SHD, Pleijel F, Madin LP, Rouse GW 2009. Deep- >>>>> Sea, Swimming >>>>> Worms with Luminescent "Bombs". Science 325: 964 (and online >>>>> 'supplement'). >>>>> >>>>> http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/citmgr?gca=sci;325/5943/964 >>>>> >>>>> Swima bombiviridis named (new genus, new species of acrocirrid) >>>>> >>>>> Abstract: "By using remotely operated vehicles, we found seven >>>>> previously >>>>> unknown species of swimming annelid worms below 1800 meters. >>>>> Specimens were >>>>> large and bore a variety of elaborate head appendages. In >>>>> addition, five >>>>> species have pairs of ellipsoidal organs homologous to branchiae >>>>> that produce >>>>> brilliant green bioluminescence when autotomized. Five genes >>>>> were used to >>>>> determine the evolutionary relationships of these worms within >>>>> Cirratuliformia. These species form a clade within Acrocirridae >>>>> and were not >>>>> closely related to either of the two known pelagic >>>>> cirratuliforms. Thus, this >>>>> clade represents a third invasion of the pelagic realm from >>>>> Cirratuliformia. >>>>> This finding emphasizes the wealth of discoveries to be made in >>>>> pelagic and >>>>> deep demersal habitats." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Nice discovery. I want to know what they feed on, and how. >>>>> >>>>> Geoff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Geoff Read >>>>> http://www.annelida.net/ >>>>> http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa >>>>> *************************** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & >>>>> Atmospheric >>>>> Research Ltd. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Annelida mailing list >>>>> Post: Annelida@net.bio.net >>>>> Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida >>>>> Resources: http://www.annelida.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Annelida mailing list >>>>> Post: Annelida@net.bio.net >>>>> Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida >>>>> Resources: http://www.annelida.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------ CONTACT INFORMATION ------ >>>> PD Dr. habil. Torsten H. Struck >>>> University of Osnabr?ck >>>> Department of Biology/Chemistry >>>> Zoology >>>> Barbarastrasse 11 >>>> D-49069 Osnabr?ck >>>> Germany >>>> >>>> Phone: +49-541-9693450 >>>> Fax: +49-541-9692587 >>>> e-mail: struck@biologie.uni-osnabrueck.de >>> >>> >> >> Greg Rouse >> Scripps Institution of Oceanography, UCSD >> 9500 Gilman Drive >> La Jolla CA, 92093-0202 >> USA >> >> http://spineless.ucsd.edu/ >> >> e-mail: grouse@ucsd.edu >> Office Ph: +1 858 534 7973 >> Lab Ph: +1 858 534 9941 >> Fax: +1 858 534 7313 >> >> Courier delivery address: >> Scripps Institution of Oceanography >> 8750 Biological Grade >> 2170 Hubbs Hall >> La Jolla, CA 92037 >> USA >> ............................................................................. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Annelida mailing list >> Post: Annelida@net.bio.net >> Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida >> Resources: http://www.annelida.net > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > J. Kirk Fitzhugh, Ph.D. > Curator of Polychaetes > Invertebrate Zoology Section > Research & Collections Branch > Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County > 900 Exposition Blvd > Los Angeles CA 90007 > Phone: 213-763-3233 > FAX: 213-746-2999 > e-mail: kfitzhug@nhm.org > http://www.nhm.org/research/annelida/staff.html > http://www.nhm.org/research/annelida/index.html > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Greg Rouse Scripps Institution of Oceanography, UCSD 9500 Gilman Drive La Jolla CA, 92093-0202 USA http://spineless.ucsd.edu/ e-mail: grouse@ucsd.edu Office Ph: +1 858 534 7973 Lab Ph: +1 858 534 9941 Fax: +1 858 534 7313 Courier delivery address: Scripps Institution of Oceanography 8750 Biological Grade 2170 Hubbs Hall La Jolla, CA 92037 USA ............................................................................. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090823/95cd067d/attachment.html From kfitzhug from nhm.org Sat Aug 22 22:06:19 2009 From: kfitzhug from nhm.org (Kirk Fitzhugh) Date: Sat Aug 22 22:43:23 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer] References: <4A905FF1.1000304@nhm.org><42EC96C3-03DA-429A-8CF1-045E56909472@ucsd.edu><4A908237.6020209@nhm.org> <449C2ED5-647A-4DA2-9BE5-DD1B27CB60C6@ucsd.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Greg. Replies inserted below. ...Kirk Greg: There are always compromises made when one is constructing papers. Otherwise we would never publish anything; endlessly waiting until we had assembled all the data that is deemed necessary by purists. Kirk: I have no problem with people having different perspectives on how to do systematics. But, the field can?t operate in a vacuum immune from the more general foundations that have been explicated and found uncontroversial in science as a whole. I fail to see how it?s appropriate to label me a ?purist? for finding such a basic point of view important. You claim that ?we would never publish anything? if we followed ?purists.? I?m perplexed why you?d say this, when you?ve said several times that you intend on presenting a more comprehensive analysis, even though you?re not a ?purist.? I guess the problem isn?t with ?purists? after all. It?s not so much that people publish cladograms using sequence data yet relegate mention of other characters only when describing specimens for formal nomenclatural reasons that bothers me; it?s the fact that they know of the requirement of total evidence since it?s been in the systematics literature since 1989 and the broader scientific literature since the 1950's and provide no valid epistemic reasons for violating it. That has nothing whatsoever to do with labeling anyone a ?purist,? but has everything to do with applying principles of reasoning that transcend all fields of science. Greg: Phylogenetics is an iterative process and we all felt that the sequence data analysis, which incidentally will swamp any morphological dataset when its finished, was worth putting out as short note for a broad audience. A more complete detailed analysis and assessment, for digestion by the true friends of annelids, will appear in an appropriate journal in due course, and will no doubt pass unmentioned in this forum. Kirk: While systematics might be an iterative process (whatever that means), data ?swamping? is a straw man argument. Given that our goal is to present explanations of observations, the number of observations of any class of character is irrelevant. The issue is that an explanation of a set of effects that willfully excludes other effects known to be relevant to the explanations of either set should be viewed with scepticism. For the life of me, I fail to see why this simple observation would be met with the need to label me a ?purist.? Greg: The methods we used produced congruent results with reference to the establishment and position of Swima, and so should satisfy phylogeneticists of various philosophies, with the exception of you of course. If we had published only the parsimony analysis, we would have expected similar disparaging rants from those who prefer model-based approaches. Being pluralistic does not diminish rigor or concern for evidence. Kirk: While this won?t make a bit of difference, I have published extensively on the fact that congruence is a meaningless measure. While the exercise of showing congruence might be satisfactory to those who need it, this is no justification for its acceptance. I encourage anyone to go through my analyses of this subject and show me where I?m mistaken, rather than simply labeling me a ?purist? and ignoring the arguments that have been presented. What I?ve brought to this forum isn?t a disparaging ?rant.? I?ve developed a rather solid published groundwork for my position. If that qualifies as a ?rant,? then I?d have to say it?s one of the more sane ?rants? in systematics. I have no doubt that using any available options in a computer package doesn?t diminish anyone?s interest in evidence. But a pluralistic approach in this context is one of sacrificing one of the uncontroversial maxims of reasoning in all the sciences. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090822/7c1569c4/attachment.html From kfitzhug from nhm.org Sat Aug 22 22:39:54 2009 From: kfitzhug from nhm.org (Kirk Fitzhugh) Date: Sat Aug 22 22:44:04 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer References: <4A904D0F.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> Message-ID: All, I wish to apologize for the tone of my initial post. I made the mistake of writing it in haste after a very long day, and should have chosen better words to voice my opinion. I'm sincerely grateful to the replies that all of you provided me, here and personally. As many of you know, I speak my opinion. It's who I am, and I only do it because I love studying the nature of science and I think it's important that we all challenge ourselves as scientists. I hope you can forgive a cranky old-ish guy for making yet another mistake. Kirk -----Original Message----- From: annelida-bounces@oat.bio.indiana.edu on behalf of Kirk Fitzhugh Sent: Sat 8/22/2009 1:30 AM To: Geoff Read; annelida@magpie.bio.indiana.edu Subject: RE: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer Nice discoveries indeed. It's unfortunate that the scientific merits of the phylogenetic hypotheses are dubious at best. But then, it *is* published in Science. ;-) Kirk -----Original Message----- From: annelida-bounces@oat.bio.indiana.edu on behalf of Geoff Read Sent: Sat 8/22/2009 12:54 AM To: http://www.annelida.net/ http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa *************************** NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research Ltd. _______________________________________________ Annelida mailing list Post: Annelida@net.bio.net Help/archive: http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/annelida Resources: http://www.annelida.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090822/ce2d31d4/attachment.html From g.read from niwa.co.nz Sun Aug 23 23:15:25 2009 From: g.read from niwa.co.nz (Geoff Read) Date: Sun Aug 23 23:18:49 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Swima the swimmer In-Reply-To: <449C2ED5-647A-4DA2-9BE5-DD1B27CB60C6@ucsd.edu> References: <4A905FF1.1000304@nhm.org> <42EC96C3-03DA-429A-8CF1-045E56909472@ucsd.edu> <4A908237.6020209@nhm.org> <449C2ED5-647A-4DA2-9BE5-DD1B27CB60C6@ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <4A92BC9C.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> Besides space here, the green bombers have since been taken up by the news agencies of the world, but I think that for once the Annelida list would have heard about them not long after the story was out of embargo. National Geographic presents more photos, if you want to see a close-up green bomb. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/08/photogalleries/worms-glowing-bombs-green-pictures/ and the Scripps release is: http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/Releases/?releaseID=1012 Cheers, Geoff NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research Ltd. From g.read from niwa.co.nz Sat Aug 29 03:03:33 2009 From: g.read from niwa.co.nz (Geoff Read) Date: Sat Aug 29 03:10:29 2009 Subject: [Annelida] Publicity is good - usually In-Reply-To: <449C2ED5-647A-4DA2-9BE5-DD1B27CB60C6@ucsd.edu> References: <4A905FF1.1000304@nhm.org> <42EC96C3-03DA-429A-8CF1-045E56909472@ucsd.edu> <4A908237.6020209@nhm.org> <449C2ED5-647A-4DA2-9BE5-DD1B27CB60C6@ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <4A998993.8045.00D5.0@niwa.co.nz> Hi all, What is mentioned in this forum is up to its subscribers, and there's quite a variety of topics that come up. Annelid news items that hit the press generally come from me - don't know why, but perhaps because I'm in New Zealand which sees the next calendar date before most other countries. Feel free to post about items earlier if you're directly involved. I also am able to see the stories in the weeklys like Science and Nature. Some stories get posted because they're pet interests of mine, or I find them amusing or odd, and anyone can do that too. I don't have time to keep up with all new papers on annelids, however interesting, and the alerting systems offered by journals are pretty good these days (Greg). If anyone wants an earlier mention or there's some particular reason to do so (like a pdf available of a subscriber only journal, a controversial or significant topic, when feedback wanted) then an email can be sent direct to Annelida , most likely phrased in that modest, self-deprecating way people tend to use for their own work. However, it's especially helpful if new books are announced here by those involved, because the abstracting agencies either ignore them or take months to notice them. In this regard: New books Publication of the Zoosymposia volume "Proceedings of the 9th International Polychaete Conference" is imminent, as those who attended the conference will be aware. Watch this http://www.mapress.com/zoosymposia/content.htm space. There's a multi-authored Annelida chapter in this book below, brewing 9 years since the species 2000 program began. But the book should be of wider interest. Alert your librarians for a possible purchase. Part 1 of an attempt to document all known biota in NZ. The 3 volumes will attempt to list every one of the 55,000-plus known species of New Zealand?s animals, plants, fungi and micro-organisms, and each chapter is an authoritative, if necessarily brief overview of a phylum. New Zealand Inventory of Biodiversity. Volume 1. Kingdom Animalia: Radiata, Lophotrochozoa, Deuterostomia. Canterbury University Press, 568 [+ 16] p. NZD $89.95. www.cup.canterbury.ac.nz http://www.cup.canterbury.ac.nz/catalogue/NZ_Inventory.shtml Publicity doesn't say if the below book was commissioned, or the result of a meeting. Several of you will know this. I don't. Annelids in Modern Biology, edited by Daniel H. Shain http://au.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0470344210.html ISBN: 978-0-470-34421-7 Hardcover 359 pages March 2009, Wiley-Blackwell Cheers, Geoff -- Geoff Read http://www.annelida.net/ http://www.niwa.co.nz/about-niwa *************************** NIWA is the trading name of the National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research Ltd. From jablake9 from gmail.com Sat Aug 29 20:29:40 2009 From: jablake9 from gmail.com (James Blake) Date: Sat Aug 29 20:57:57 2009 Subject: [Annelida] RE: Proceedings of the Ninth International Polychaete Conferece Message-ID: <663258900908291829g957419cub7100e72fd3acc0f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends and Colleagues, As Geoff has noted, publication of the Ninth International Polychaete Conference, held in Portland, Maine, USA in August 2007 is at hand. The publication date is this Monday, 31 August 2009. On that day, the web site will be opened and hardcopies of the book will be sent to Conference participants and other subscribers. We are anticipating that all papers will eventually be Open Access, but this may not be complete on Monday; financing is still being arranged. The volume includes a preface, four invited obituaries, and 35 peer-reviewed manuscripts. There are numerous new species, important morphological topics, ecological survey results, and other biological topics. There are some “gems” included which will most certainly stimulate some discussion at this Site. Nancy and I would like to thank Dr. Zhi-Qiang Zhang, Editor-in-Chief of Zootaxa, for his enthusiasm and tireless support during the preparation of this volume. After the Madrid Conference when it became apparent that the next Conference would be Portland, Maine, I approached Dr. Zhang about the possibility of publishing an interdisciplinary zoological topic in Zootaxa. His response was to establish a separate journal, Zoosymposia, for that very purpose. The first topic on molluscs was published last year; our polychaete book will be the second. The reference for this volume will be: Maciolek, N.J. and J.A. Blake (Editors). 2009. Proceedings of the Ninth International Polychaete Conference, August 2007, Portland, Maine, USA. Zoosymposia 2:1–600. Magnolia Press, Auckland, New Zealand. Jim -- James A. Blake, Ph.D. Marine & Coastal Center AECOM Environment, NE Region 89 Water Street Woods Hole, Massachusetts 02543 Tel: 508-457-7900; FAX: 5008-457-7595 E-Mail: James.Blake@aecom.com and jablake9@gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090829/868afbce/attachment.html From jablake9 from gmail.com Sun Aug 30 18:05:33 2009 From: jablake9 from gmail.com (James Blake) Date: Sun Aug 30 18:10:01 2009 Subject: [Annelida] RE: The Proceedings are now on-line Message-ID: <663258900908301605o53a1a7a9le369b1e3522959b2@mail.gmail.com> Hi Folks, As promised, the Proceedings of the Ninth International Polychaete Conference are now on-line with full Open Access. It is Monday In Auckland. Go to the following link, or just browse down the Zootaxa Home Page to Zoosymposia and work from there. Have fun. Jim http://www.mapress.com/zoosymposia/content.htm -- James A. Blake, Ph.D. Marine & Coastal Center AECOM Environment, NE Region 89 Water Street Woods Hole, Massachusetts 02543 Tel: 508-457-7900; FAX: 5008-457-7595 E-Mail: James.Blake@aecom.com and jablake9@gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090830/b9a96e64/attachment.html From njmaciolek from gmail.com Sun Aug 30 18:10:44 2009 From: njmaciolek from gmail.com (Nancy Maciolek) Date: Sun Aug 30 18:15:49 2009 Subject: [Annelida] RE: Proceedings of the Ninth International Polychaete Conference Message-ID: <954d2baa0908301610q5d426f48ya160fe472df0b801@mail.gmail.com> The volume is now online, and all papers are available through open access, thanks to funding from several sources. http://www.mapress.com/zoosymposia/content/2009/v2/index.htm Thanks to everyone who worked on this volume, and my special thanks to Zhi-Qiang Zhang, Chief Editor. cheers, Nancy Nancy J. Maciolek njmaciolek@gmail.com On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 9:29 PM, James Blake wrote: > Dear Friends and Colleagues, > > > > As Geoff has noted, publication of the Ninth International Polychaete > Conference, held in Portland, Maine, USA in August 2007 is at hand. The > publication date is this Monday, 31 August 2009. On that day, the web site > will be opened > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/annelida/attachments/20090830/7d3c22f4/attachment.html