A Common Misconception among Evolutionists Re: Creation Science

Ray Lanthier rlanthier at earthlink.net
Thu Oct 8 20:38:40 EST 1998



taguebw at REMOVEwfu.edu wrote:

> In article <361C151B.9FC673C9 at earthlink.net>, Ray Lanthier
> <rlanthier at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > In the scientific method, one asks a question in such a way that anyone
> > > else can ask the same question using the same technology and arrive at the
> > > same answer. Everyone can observe the data.
> >
> > Hence, faith in the senses. Faith in reason. Faith in the order of
> the       universe.Faith is evidence of a higher order than physical
> perception.
>
> Well, not really.
>
> Senses?: There are plenty of times that one's senses get in the way. I
> have seen mirages in the desert; that does not mean they are really lakes.
> One needs to look at data.
>

With what - paranormal abilities?

> Reason?: To quote biologists of the ~40's: "Proteins must be the genetic
> material. It only stands to reason that nucleic acids can't be, their
> chemistry is too simple." One needs to examine data, repeatable observable
> experiments.
>
> Order?: Probably not, the world is chaotic and probabilistic.
>

There is predictability.We can determine exactly when and at what angle, and with what momentum to
launch a rocket to land on the moon. The search for explanations, presumes orderliness - that the
universe operates in a rational way.= Hence the laws of nature.

> "Faith is evidence of a higher order than physical perception"? Maybe for
> you, but it is not scientific evidence. That is, it is your faith that
> "faith" is evidence of a higher order than physical perception. Faith does
> not *prove* that such an order exists.

Faith is self-evidence.

> Besides I cannot directly observe
> your faith, so it is not the kind of data that science can deal with.
>
> Besides, you are defining faith fairly loosely.

"evidence of a higher order than physical perception" is hardly loose. It is similar to Peter's (the
apostle)  'evidence of things unseen"

> To me at least, faith is
> belief is something that cannot be proven, demonstrated, experimented on
> -- The existence of God, the act of creation...
>
> Science by definition cannot ask about those questions.

Its questions about Nature presume that Nature is capable of revealing answers, certain types of
quantifiable answers. There is a point where we can say " yes this is a fact", "this is true". We
stop the process of induction , of experimentation at some point. This point is a point of faith,
where we accept that we have "enough" to prove at an instant that our hypothesis is correct. We know
that Nature will continue to behave in a similar way. These bits of knowledge give us Faith that we
can continue to discover more. Otherwise the process of 'proof' would never end. We would not know
from moment to moment that what we "proved" in the past, no longer has to be proven. (Given the
chaos and disorderliness of everything)

> As I wrote before:
>
> > > In the scientific method, one asks a question in such a way that anyone
> > > else can ask the same question using the same technology and arrive at the
> > > same answer. Everyone can observe the data.
>

As I said above - Observe with what?

> That is, one does not have to simply believe a fact of science; one can do
> the experiment themselves.
>
> > > Questions of faith -- there are no ways to test them. One cannot directly
> > > observe God or design an repeatable experiment to prove the existence of
> > > God.  That's why these are questions of religion and philosophy.
> > >
> >
> > Natural theologians like Thomas Aquinas would disagree. Aquinas
> considered "intellectual" virtue to
> > be the highest.
>
> Sir Thomas was a brilliant man, no doubt. But no matter what he thought,
> questions of faith have no ways to test them. One cannot directly observe
> God or design an repeatable experiment to prove the existence of God or
> design an experiment to prove creation.  That's why these are questions of
> religion and philosophy.
>

Nevertheless there is no antagonism between faith and reason, beween science and religion.

> Questions of science do have ways of testing that everyone can observe.
>
> My 2 electrons,
>
> Brian
>
> --
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