"AIDS Treatment News" online * New Issue #302 (searchable/indexed)

johnburgin at worldnet.att.net johnburgin at worldnet.att.net
Fri Oct 30 13:31:24 EST 1998


On 30 Oct 98 08:06:30 EDT, holzmr01 at mcrcr6.med.nyu.edu (ROBERT S.
HOLZMAN) wrote:

>In article <3638fa0f.261497980 at netnews.worldnet.att.net>, johnburgin at worldnet.att.net writes:
>> On 28 Oct 98 19:22:36 EDT, holzmr01 at mcrcr6.med.nyu.edu (ROBERT S.
>> HOLZMAN) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <36364960.85168152 at netnews.worldnet.att.net>, johnburgin at worldnet.att.net writes:
>>>> On 27 Oct 1998 17:49:13 GMT, carlton at walleye.ccbr.umn.edu (Carlton
>>>> Hogan) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>You are a silly and amazingly ignorant man. In the below you state:
>>>>>
>>>>>">If, assuming that you are correct, which I don't believe, that
>>>>>>antibodies do "not" always mean that you have conquered infection, as
>>>>>>I stated before, how can you arbitrarily recommend using them to
>>>>>>signify protection one time(as with prophylactic vaccination against
>>>>>>Hepatitis B and not with HIV?  What, please tell me, would an
>>>>>>individual "vaccinated" against HIV present as proof of immunization?
>>>>>>He would be HIV + of course!  Again, are these "non-neutralizing"
>>>>>>antibodies in the latter case or neutralizing antibodies in the first
>>>>>>case?"
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>They might well be nonneutralizing in both cases.  In any event, before you
>>>and your pathologist/biologist friends laugh too hard you might first consider
>>>that while immunization with Hepaititis B surface antigen fragments produce
>>>antibodies and immunity to infection, the ability to produce such antibodies
>>>does not ensure recovery from natural infection, which is what is being
>>>asserted.  If you think that hepatitis antibody does enusure recovery then you
>>>might try explaing how chronic hepatitis B occurs.
>>>
>> My point was and still is, you can't pick and choose when you want
>> anitbodies to be preventative and when they are not.  There's lots of
>> things I can't explain, maybe you can't explain a few either.  jb
>> 
>
>
>Precisely wrong.
To what?
  You and I can't pick and choose but mother nature does.
The problem that I have, and an exponentially growing(thanks to the
www) number of people have is that YOU speak for nature, not nature
for itself.  There's an old quote I like to use at times like this:
I do not pretend to know what many ignorant people are sure of.
  For
>example, antibodies to pneumococcal capsular polysaccharide are protective
>against pneumococci while antibodies against other components are not. 
>Antibodies against group A streptococcal capsule are not while antibodies to
>other coat proteins are.  Whether we understand the basis of such protection
>or non protection is beside the point.
No, it is precisely the point.
  It is easy to demonstrate
Then what's the big hold up on a vaccine?
>experimentally that some antibodies are protective and others are not and it
>has been demonstrated in many systems over the past century.  This, in turn,
>demonstrates that the statement that the presence of antibodies signals
>immunity or "has always [prior to the advent of HIV] been interpreted to
>indicate immunity to [or resistance to or recovery from ] infection" is just
>plain wrong and ignorant to boot. 
I can promise you, if I am ignorant and wrong, or either of the two,
this world is in serious trouble for I know hundreds(with an "S") of
physicians, dentists, nurses and other medical personnel  that do not
know enough about AIDS or HIV to speak to a second grade class,
parochial or public(in case quality of education is a question).jb
>
>




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