"AIDS Treatment News" online * New Issue #302 (searchable/indexed)

Marnix L. Bosch marnix at u.washington.edu
Tue Sep 22 11:00:31 EST 1998


In article <3607299a.1305896 at netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
johnburgin at worldnet.att.net wrote:

> That's exactly the point, there are no controlled studies to prove
> that they don't. 

Is this your best response to my request ? You said literally that there is 

"evidence to the opposite also, that is, that those taking the
immunosuppressive "AIDS" drugs have worse clinical conditions and poorer
survival when they take drugs(I assume you are speaking of the usual
poisons, AZT and PI's)in combination than those who do not use drugs(again
I am assuming the same thing) who have progressed to AIDS".

So we have to take your word for this assertion and balance that with data
from clinical trials that show that:
1) people on monotherapy do better (and certainly no worse) than untreated
individuals
2) people on combination therapy do better than those on monotherapy

I for one would like to see data where untreated individuals are compared
to matched individuals on triple drug therapy. But such a study can only
be done in places where the standard of care is 'no treatment', with all
the ethical problems associated with that (like future availability of the
drugs etc.). Duesberg of course knows this, so screaming for such a
controlled study means ignoring reality. 

> I suggest that you contact the Los Angeles chapter
> of HEAL.  Talk to some real live people that gave up on being guinea
> pigs and are very healthy, despite being HIV +.  Start with Christine
> Maggiore.  

Of course there are long-term infected individuals that are healthy in the
absence of treatment. Same is true for long-term smokers. That however
does not prove anything.

> Duesberg has been screaming for a controlled study like
> this for at least 9 years.  The AIDS establishment doesn't want it to
> happen.  But again,  the best evidence is in speaking with real live
> persons.  There are plenty of the real dead ones that went your route
> that can't defend themselves. jb

There are a few studies in macaques infected with SIV showing that
untreated animals die of AIDS-related disease and that treatment keeps the
animals healthy and alive. Unfortunately there is no animal model where
HIV-1 causes AIDS directly. Which is why drug companies now get away
without having to prove efficacy in an animal model. Wish that were
otherwise.

Marnix Bosch

> On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:41:44 -0700, marnix at u.washington.edu (Marnix L.
> Bosch) wrote:
> 
> >In article <3606c736.257123235 at netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
> >johnburgin at worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:57:23 GMT, gmc0 at ix.netcom.com (George M.
> >> Carter) wrote:
> >> 
> >> >Todd Miller <todd33 at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>AIDS Treatment News / Immunet wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>> Long-term survivors have usually tried many different treatments,
> >> >>> and found combinations which work for them.  
> >> >
> >> >>Does anyone know of a reference that supports this statement?
> >> >>Is this statement true because by definition, a "long-term
> >> >>survivor" is a person who HAS taken the establishment's therapy,
> >> >>while a "long-term non-progressor" is a person who has avoided
> >> >>this therapy?
> >> >
> >> >There is evidence that people with AIDS (who have progressed whether
> >> >they took drugs or not) have better clinical condition and survival
> >> >when they take drugs in combination than those who do not use drugs
> >> >who have progressed to AIDS.
> >
> >> There is evidence to the opposite also, that is, that those taking the
> >> immunosuppressive "AIDS" drugs have worse clinical conditions and
> >> poorer survival when they take drugs(I assume you are speaking of the
> >> usual poisons, AZT and PI's)in combination than those who do not use
> >> drugs(again I am assuming the same thing) who have progressed to AIDS.
> >> Really poor sentence structure and definitely a circular argument,
> >> kind of HIV=AIDzey(pronounced like 'sy' in easy)
> >
> >Could you please post that evidence ? That is: studies that show that
> >people on anti-HIV cocktails fare worse than matched HIV-1 infected
> >untreated controls. Please.
> >
> >Marnix Bosch



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