creation or evolution, spontanious or not ?

suter at VAX.MPIZ-KOELN.MPG.dbp.de suter at VAX.MPIZ-KOELN.MPG.dbp.de
Tue Dec 8 11:38:57 EST 1992


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Subj:	spontaneous creation of life
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+     I received so much response on my last posting to this newsgroup that I
+thought that I would again foster some discussion:
+     As it turns out, a friend and I were recently discussing the theory
+of formation of life on this planet.  Most scientists today blindly
+accept the theory that states life was formed through the random coliisions
    ??????????? 
	in that sense that it is the simplest theory that fits all the 
	facts, i think this hypothesis is the most likely to be correct

+of all the "right" molecules and energy generated by lightning strikes.
+For the sake of argument, we each took a different side with me saying that
+life could never have been spontaneously formed.  Well, as the argument wore
+on, we decided to find the probability of this occcuring.  Indeed, we found the
+numerical value to be infinitessimally small.  There are too many parameters
  ????????????????????????????????????????? 
	what value did you obtain ? is it larger than zero

+involved:
+(1) the original microbe would have to be an obligate anaerobe
	?????????????????????????????????????????????????
	probably true. but how many competing microbes were present in this
	soup (of which only one is our ancestor). and what is the problem
	with it being a anaerobic organism ? these buggers are quit 
	capable of surviving (probably better than aerobix even ?).

+(2) it would have had to be chemosynthetic

	i would suspect that parts of the machinery used by the first
	organsim (s) would already be functioning in the soup from which 
	they came to be. the first organism(s) would in fact be an assemly
	of several compartments with different functions.
	
+(3) it would have had to evolve the ability to reproduce in the span of
+    one lifetime
	
	if it can not do this, it will die. the next candidate gets a shot at 
	it
..
+(4) it would have had to be particualrly resistant to the effects of UV

	this could be a problem indeed. but when you think what (average)
	bacteria can survive... temps over 100 C, below 0 C, high salt, 
	radiation, chemicals.... and the simpler the bacteria, the more
	it appears to be able to survive... not discussing virusses and 
	phages...

+
+etc...etc...etc.
+
+     My friend still accepts the theory given that as time increases so
+does the probability of an event occuring.  I still say that we are
+missing some part of the puzzle.  Something must have, at one point,
+happened to dramatically increase the probability of life spontaneously
+occuring. 

	we know that 
	fragments of the creation process can take place 'in a tube' but 
	we cannnot yet link these 'partial creations' together. does this
	mean there is a big mystery somewhere ? or that even more effort
	has to be put into this ? 

+ I am not proposing the existence of a great creator but I am
+saying that there has to be more to it than that.
+     If we are to accept the theory of spontaneous formation of life as
+it is today, we must al has formed life that is adaptable to event the harshest
+environments.  Souldn't we see more evidence of this?  Why isn't there life on
+mars?

	why isn't there life on the sun ? in my opinion life is adaptable to 
	the harshest environments, but probably some enviroments are simply...
	well too harsh ?
	My believe is that there probably exists a very small 'energy window'
	in which life can be formed (this has to do with enthalpy etc, but 
	college is way back). if the energy is too low (mars perhaps?) or too 
	high (the sun?) life cannot form. the earth is apparently under 
	(sub-?)optimal conditions... 

	basic question remains: is the timespan of appr. 1 x 10E9 years
	enough to create life thru a chance process? creationists say no, 
	evolutionists say yes. in my opinion nothing speaks against it.
	after all 1 x 10E9 years is a pretty long time, if you consider that 
	the time we spent waiting in the rain for dates that let us down
	is considerably shorter.

+                                             John Antonioni
+                                             Laurentian University
+                                             Sudbury, Canada
+
+P.S. Please don't refer me to Stanley's experiments.  I think that they are
+     performed under conditions that are too ideal.  Even so, he still only
+     managed to generate an amino acid.  Hardly the convincing proof
+     of the spontaneous formation of life that I'm looking for.



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