request good review article (ECT)

kkollins at pop3.concentric.net kkollins at pop3.concentric.net
Thu Nov 19 22:32:33 EST 1998


I stand on what I posted. And will stand, so, in-person before any
Scientists and Fair Witnesses, anywhere, within my means to pay my own
way... give it up, Frank, all the "stories" you've heard about me are just
mean-spirited distortions of Truth... I don't "get all worked up" so as to
be "led" by mean-"spiritedness"... I just do what needs to be done, as best
I can within any "momentary" context... it's =Hard= to do what needs to be
done because everything in-me Seeks "just"-the-opposite of "jacking" folks
up.

The "in-person" Obligation has nothing to do with anything of me. It's
"there" be-cause Unscrupulous folks were ripping off the things I've
developed, =and Withholding= their Stuff from the Children and from those
who Suffer Greatly. Such is at an End. If folks Choose to Inflict Darkness
upon others, folks shall be left in the Darkness that they Choose. I
=Agonize= for the Children and those who Suffer Greatly, but I've
very-little "power", and it's clear that if "powerful" folks Choose to
Withhold the Understanding from the Children and from those who Suffer
Greatly, there's little that I can do to present the Gift of Understanding
to the Children and those who Suffer Greatly. And so, the Choice of the
"powerful" folks will Dictate things. Such is not =my= Choice... my Choice
has =always= been "just= the opposite.

BTW, I've not once seen you post anything that's beyond basic-level texts,
so what gives? K. P. Collins

F. Frank LeFever wrote:

> It is obvious that this fellow is off on a trip of his own, so there
> would be little point in replying to him; however, there is the danger
> that someone not sophisticated enough to discount his comments might be
> led to reject a treatment that could be life-saving.
>
> See comments below:
>
> In <3650E7E9.57FC5323 at pop3.concentric.net> kkollins at pop3.concentric.net
> writes:
> >
> >"Good"-Grief, Frank, you "embarrass" me :-)
> >
> >F. Frank LeFever wrote:
> >
> >> Again, kkollins pontificates from his position of authority based on
> no
> >> more than popular fiction (e.g. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest).
> Is
> >> your response a joke or are you really ignorant of the practice of
> >> unilateral ECT?
> >
> >Without Physically-separating the hemispheres, there's nothing
> "unilateral"
> >that occurs in the nervous system... yes, one can try to "steer" such,
> but
> >what do you think the cortical targets of the commisural fibers do?
> >..."opt-out?
>
> First, a general observation: we have often seen (in this newsgroup)
> people who know a little bit about something (often scattered and
> poorly-undertood terms and facts) assume that others know even less,
> adolescent "big insights" proclaimed naively (to others who had and
> worked through such "insights" long ago) as if it were a private
> revelation, etc., etc.
>
> In this particular case, kkollins assumes that someone who has been
> studying brain function for several decades, has done research at the
> physiological/anatomical level as well as at the cognitive/behavioral
> level as a (doctoral level) clinical and experimental neuropsychologist
> has not done even as much reading as he has about interhemispheric
> relations.  Naive, arrogant, presumptious!
>
> Besides a pretty good general professional knowledge of not oonly the
> corpus callosum but also the anterior commissure, posterior commissure,
> and hippocampal commissure (to say nothing of indirect influences via
> the diencephalon), there are several more "personal" experiences to
> keep me alert to interhemispheric relationships.
>
> For ex., about 35 years ago, in preparation for research with a recent
> post-doc from Sperry's lab (a "classmate" of Gazzaniga's), I was
> practicing corpus callosum section and unilateral hippocampal excisions
>  in (dead) cat heads--project fell through when NYU delayed too long in
> buying cages for LIVE cats.
>
> For ex., about 18-20 years ago, one of my patients with MS, a
> right-hander, switched to the left hand to do the Block Design (WAIS).
> Having seen demonstrations of the superiority of left-hand Block Design
> performances  by split-brain patients (compared to right-hand), I had
> the sudden insight that inasmuch as the corpus callosum is the largest
> myelinated stucture in the brain, MS patients may have a partial
> disconnection syndrome--unfortunately, did not write this up, but
> others have indeed demontrated that this is true.
>
> For ex., sometime in the past 20-30 years, a former student of mine
> (Stanley Glick) found that the CC was impoortant in neurotransmitter
> balance across the hemispheres--after it was cut, prior DA asymmetries
> increased and ACh asymmetries developed.
>
> About 15 years ago, using a computer-driven visual display I built
> (LEDs in a plexiglass dome) I was able to replicate Brend Milner's
> finding of a slight latency difference between ipsilateral and
> contralateral reaction times in a patient with callosal agenesis (about
> the same order of magnitude as she found, if I recall correctly).
>
> More recently (5-6 yrs?), a former colleague, Robert Sloviter,
> described long inhibitory fibers from each hippocampus to the other (I
> heard it from the horse's mouth).
>
> ACCOORDINGLY, you may be sure I did not forget callosal transmission
> when I wrote about unilateral vs. bilateral ECT.  The difference
> between kkollins inferences and mine lies in the fact that I know
> something about ECT and he apparently does not.
>
> There have been and coontinue to be many studies comparing unilateral
> and bilateral ECT.  Hormonal responses, clinical outcomes, cognitive
> effects have been compared (unilateral vs. bilateral).
>
> Yes, of course seizure propagation from right to left cortex is to be
> expected, but the latest EEG evidence I know of shows concordance
> mainly in the froontal lobes (which is the preferred target for
> neurophysiological changes, inasmuch as functional imaging studies show
> them to be most important), but much less between posterior areas.
> Indeed, it has been suggested that the decreased cognitive side-effects
> (transient and mild, n.b.) with unilateral ECT is due to the
> procedure's eliciting less seizure activity in left temporal (and
> occipital) areas.
>
> - - - - - - -(snip) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
>
> >> Far from being analoguous to pummeling (with implications
> >> of physical abuse and pain), it is nowadays undertaken with muscle
> >> relaxants (to avoid injury during seizure) and sedatives (to
> minimize
> >> anxiety).
>
> To address his "cattle-prod" fantasy directly: cattle-prods are used to
> cause pain, and thereby alter behavior--inhibiting the punished
> behavior, eliciting behavior to avoid pain, etc.  ECT is administered
> in such a way as to avoid pain and anxiety.
>
> The goal is not to punish or frighten or distract the patient, but to
> alter brain physiology.  Modified procedures are under study (e.g.
> brief pulses rather than long trains, e.g. magnetic stimulation
> targeted to specific brain areas) to do this more precisely and with
> fewer undesirable side effects.
>
> - - - - - - -(snip) - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> >"Depression" is an engineered-in, fully-functional mechanism upon
> which
> >Survival depends.
> >
>
> So is activation of the HPA axis by various stressors; but unregulated
> activation can be harmful to the individual.  Perhaps kkollins has in
> mind "Survival of the Fittest" (as crudely construed by those who don't
> really understand Darwin)? Racial improvement via individual suicide?
>
> >> still less, "punishment" as those
> >> who ignorantly think of it as a "cattle-prod" procedure applied to
> the
> >> head might assert.
> >
> >It's hardly distinguishable from a "cattle-prod to the head"... and
> just
> >about as "effective" :-)
> >
>
> (v. my counter argument above.  Please note kkollins has read no
> efficacy studies or has misunderstood any that he has read, judging by
> this assertion)
>
> >> I can only hope your unfounded
> >
> >The above is Libel... all my work is thoroughly-Verified (Frankly,
> Frank,
> >so far, it seems you're far-"better" at Libel than you are at
> >Neuroscience.)
> >
>
> Apparently his knowledge of the law is at the same level as his
> knowledge of neuroscience.
>
> I'll repeat:
>
> I can only hope that his unfounded
> >> but confident assertions do not
> >> discourage someone from taking advantage of a therapy which DOES
> work
> >> for many depressives who still suffer and do not respond well to any
> >> medication.
> >
>
> >I will =Gladly= give them the Understanding that can Lift them Up out
> of
> >their Sorrow... if Neuroscience ever desides to stop Withholding the
> >Understanding from them.
> >
>
> What is he waiting for--invitation from the Nobel community?  Who is
> withholding--kkollins? Neurooscience??
>
> The reast of this pathetic exchange follows.
>
> F. Frank LeFever, Ph.D.
> New York Neuropsychology Group
>
> >> Your lack of intellectual honesty and humility is especially immoral
> in
> >> these life and death matters. (Yes, life and death; ever hear of
> >> depressed patients committing suicide?)
> >
> >Get thee before a mirror.
> >
> >> Your putting "depression" in quotes suggests you do not take it
> >> seriously as a medical condition--"everybody feels bad sometimes;
> why
> >> don't they just pull themselves together? get a hobby or something
> to
> >> distract thenmselves".  Is that your level of understanding? That is
> >> disgusting.
> >
> >I'll tell you what's disgusting, Mr. Frank, Ignorance "in
> high-places". K.
> >P. Collins
> >






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