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Serotonin and Depression

patanie at my-dejanews.com patanie at my-dejanews.com
Fri Oct 16 08:40:08 EST 1998


Re: Serotonin and Depression

Auteur:                     kkollins

Adresse réticulaire:    kkollins at pop3.concentric.net

Date:                        14 Octobre 1998
Agora:                       bionet.neuroscience
  -------------------------------------------

patanie at my-dejanews.com ecrivit:

> Dear Ken,
>
> > The community of researchers has missed one thing: what's referred to as
> > "depression" is not, per se, "pathological".
>
> Yes.Dr Henri Laborit has made excellent research on the origins of depression.
> But you have to read it in French!

>Sadly, although it was my primary language when I was very young (my
grandparents

Dear Ken,

>immigrated to the U. S. from Québec Province, Canada),

Yes,I know that millions of French Canadians lost their identity and culture
through "assimilation" within the anglo-saxon "sea" of North-America.
The "White Indians",as some say!
In fact,the defeat of France,at Quebec,in 1763,is the beginning of the modern
world embedded in "competition" and mercantile ideology.

>I "lost" the language due to
>the experience of some, I'm told, strong "peer pressure".

Yes,I know that too...When I came to Europe,I was bilingual
Arabic-French.After some years of racism at school I "forgot" my arabic...so
I know,very well,the whole story of de-culturation. Professor Henri Laborit
explains quite well why this always happens between groups of different
strength.In fact,it is a banal observation of cultural anthropology. In
Switzerland,here,in Genève,the vast majority of children originating from
immigration lose their culture in the same way.They all want French names and
speak only French,etc. Same old sad story...

>I studied it during my
>Childhood, and I sense that it's "still there", a bit, but it's a sadness. I
>consider myself illiterate in all but English... please understand, I've had my
>hands pretty full, and forgive me.

>Can you provide a brief synopsis of what Dr. Laborit's position is?

Laborit says that depression is a consequence of the inhibition of
"action",which means that the "meaning" of an organism is to be and to
maintain its structure,through action in the environment: fight or escape. If
 the organism cannot fight or escape then its inhibits its behaviour and
becomes "depressed". Laborit has well studied this behavioural inhibition and
its harmful consequences in rats.

If action is inhibited then depression arises,as a direct consequence of the
impossibility for a mammal or a human being to either fight OR escape.

So,depression is,mostly,the result of environmental factors where an animal
or a human being are not permitted to "act" in order to obtain gratification.

If you examine this in our western culture you will,easily,see that a lot of
pleasurable behaviours are inhibited by Religion.

And the most extreme forms of inhibitions are found in Protestantism and
Puritanism.
Animals have no religion to make them depressed,each time they try to get
pleasure!!!

A French Protestant Philosopher has written that "Puritanism" was a perversion
of Protestantism,leading human beings to a complete inhibition of Action.

> > We =need= "depression", and the modern trend that takes the stand, that it
> > should be engineered-out of the nervous system, has more to do with the
> > profit-seeking of the pharmaceutical companies than science or the welfare
of
> > humanity.
>
> It has,also,something to do with the puritan foundation of the
> United-States,where pleasure has been tracked as something diabolical.

>>Sadly, I agree, things are out of synch with respect to what John Milton wrote
of in
>>his poems L'Legra and Il Penerero... both Joy and Sorrow are Friends... each
bearing
>>their distinct Gifts.

In some cultures,such as in Asia,emphasis is put on pleasure rather than pain
and suffering. So you get much more joy than sorrow! Buddhism brings much
more gratification than Christianism because Buddhism does not track
pleasure...like Puritanism and,generally,Protestants.Basically,Buddhism let
people be what they want to be.

Having lived continuously in Asia for nearly 10 years,I can assure you that it
is very difficult to become depressed there because people
escape,constantly,from dysphoric inhibition of action.
And this is a basically normal behaviour of mammals.
Who wants to confront permanent dysphoria,such as in some pathetic competitive
societies? Only masochists!

I often say to depressed people:"go and buy an air ticket,then go far away and
learn to relax and enjoy LIFE,for at least  a year. Learn "laziness"...for a
while,forget the ideologies of the West,forget totally about  Westerners and
their intrinsic sado-masochism. Sleep,eat,make love,consider yourself in
extended holidays".
Then depression will vanish into thin air...

Life is a search for Pleasure,not constant inhibition,not constant work in the
"tripallium" sense.

>In present-day U. S. there's a pressurized polarization toward
>"feeling good" that's just as detrimental to our overall well-being as would be
>polarization toward "feeling badly".

In which way "feeling good"? The best way to feel good is,first,to learn
"laziness",tropical indolence...Not to worry,forget about worrying.

> This
> led to the imipramine dogma that a good anti-depressant should elevate mood
> without inducing "euphoria"...a nearly impossible paradox.
>
> I suggest,on the contrary,that true anti-depressants should stimulate
> pleasure,thus "euphoria",like the fast acting gamma-hydroxybutyrate.

> >onment which always answers any behavior with, "No", behaviors being
> > acquired in the face of such, and handed down inter-generationally via
> learning.
> > Even though the contribution of serotonin is always in-there, the simple
> > modification of serotonin concentration cannot do anything that can
"optimize"
> > the functioning of the system as a whole.
>
> Obviously.
>
> Serotonin is a mood modulator which,I think,is naturally used to blunt
> emotions in case of excessive dysphoria. However,if the dysphoria persists
> then,probably,this elicits different functional changes leading to
> depression.

>>It's certain that it does. Where we "disagree" is that I'd like to see folks
gaining
>>understanding of how our nervous systems process information =before= they
come up
>>against "randomness". Having the understanding (which also exists as enduring
>>modifications to the neural architecture) "up-front" is the best "tool" with
which
>>to handle Life's inevitable "ups" and "downs". In this way, there's no
>>"short-circuiting" of highly-functional information-processing mechanisms.

> I have to remind,here,that Tianeptine,a specific serotonin re-uptake
> accelerator(SSRA)seems to work,statistically,even better than the SSRIs in
> depression.
>
> > This is not to say that folks are not trying to do "just" that. In the US,
> it's
> > become the "fashion" to "lift one's self up" through recourse to
> > "antidepressant" drugs.
>
> In the US,daily life is very abnormal,as the US culture demands too much
> productivity. Evolution has NOT selected the homo sapiens species as a
> species adapted to work 8 hours a day...for years and years,non-stop.

>>Yeah, work, work, work is pretty boring stuff. But my experience is that the
>>important factor is not "how much", but "what"... while I was putting the
theory
>>together, for instance, I routinely worked 30-50+ hours taking breaks only to
eat,
>>drink, eliminate... and there was Joy in there.

Yes.If you get Joy then your work is no more work.I mean work in the sense of
the French word for work, "Travail", which comes from the latin
"tripallium",an instrument of torture...

You see the link? Work=Torture,in French!!!

We are NOT meant to work like machines...NOT meant to work for hours and
hours,days after days.
Any machine will come to a stop if it is pushed to exceeed its limits and homo
sapiens,in the USA,is,everyday,pushed BEYOND his limits.

I,really,pitty those who were born there and have to remain there,destroying
one another through constant competition and anger.

I do not believe competition is the future of mankind.
On the contrary:the Future will be made of cooperation and Sociability.

We need to lower intra-specific aggression in order to evolve.

A molecule such as Gamma-OH just does that:it decreases intra-specific
aggressivity,liberating,then,Joy and Happiness to be alive!

This is why it is so efficient as an anti-depressant.

Competition should go in the garbage can,forever.We do NOT need,at
all,intra-specific aggressivity which is,only useful,for those billionnaires
controlling mercantile societies in what has been called the "Velvet War"
which has replaced the Cold War as a mean of coercition.

I would be most interested to study the psychiatry of compulsive
businessmen...who are leading mankind nowhere as our incontrovertible
"future" is the graveyard and happiness should be lived NOW,not in a mythical
"after-life"... The knowledge about Death should be the main reference of
life.Everyday when you wake up you should be HAPPY to still have one more day
of life!

>>When I'd get run-down, I'd give it a
>>break... go for walks. Sit on the steps of the Civic Center and watch folks go
about
>>their business... work is "not so hard" when it's what's in one's Heart. Do I
make
>>sense?

> Humans are not ants and anthropologists have well demonstrated that,before the
> Neolithic,our species did not "work" more than 2 to 3 hours a day.

>>I'll tell you, after all's said and done, I'm feeling pretty-old these days,
so I
>>have to say I see the light you shine on my position, stated above. I'm taking
a
>>long weekend (my 3rd real "vacation" in 29 years)

Really? Terrible.I have spent most of my last 20 years in vacations,working
just enough to pay my basic needs! The rest? Enjoy
life,research,nature,women,anything!

>> to attend a performance of a
>>singer whose voice just courses through me in the nicest way... did the same a
few
>>weeks back... it was so-overflowing with the experience of Beauty that I
caught
>>myself mourning the personal costs of the endeavor. I'll do some more
"catching-up"
>>this weekend :-).

>>So I see that I can't really argue with you. Your position on this point is
>>more-worthy than is mine. In "defense", though, sometimes a thing's just got
to be
>>accomplished, and it's my hope that, in the end, my work will open things up
to what
>>you say... interpersonal "sanity". Forgive me, I'm long-winded.

Sanity is to become sociable with others.I would nearly say "maternal".
If men learned to be maternal...good-bye all the senseless competition.

Cheers,

Claude

>>Cheers, Claude, ken

PS:I noticed,somewhere,that someone was mentionning the variations of my
e-mails's nicknames!
Why? Because I just feel it is great fun! In Asia,people enjoy changing their
names...

I am not making scientific research in order to express my ego,in front of
others and crush them,as scientists do in the USA .I am researching only to
get intellectual pleasure. So writing my "original name",everywhere,is not
the point at all in my mind !!! I change my nicknmames according to my
mood.It is pleasant. For example,the one I have been using recently is
"Nongue-Quaille-Sur-Maicongue" which is only the name of a great little
town,in Siam,where I had lots of happiness and tranquillity.I love this
little town. Another one,"Noille",means "small",in Thai language. Another one
is "Claude de Contrecoeur",the name of the Commander of Fort Duquesne(now
"Pittsburgh")in the Oyo valley(now "Ohio")in 1754...when this Oyo valley was
still French.

These variations have personal meanings for me and I found,for example,the
competitive attitude of Mr LeFever,mentioning these variable nicknames,as
quite childhish and futile.

My real name has no importance whatsoever as we are,all,just "bacteria" in
this huge Cosmos...bacteria doomed to a permanent death. No time for our
egos...



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