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Nonhuman empathy

Cijadrachon cijadra at zedat.fu-berlin.de
Sun Feb 21 13:35:04 EST 1999

(Maybe skip, but not end.)

>"Oh, there must be someexplanation for that that doesn't involve being frightened or seeking
>protection from a perceived threat." 
Did he exclude those?

>I guess my point is that empathy is in the eye of the beholder.
The eyes are for me like sort of two power channel loads.
But since of the sequencer is in central eye control and I myself so
far tend to avoid looking into human eyes, I believe I am often using
other channels than them.
It sucks to dock with the eyes, download that, for a human tune in the
amygdala, for oldies tune in a load of old programs or observe till
understanding more, etc.

> You assign certain mental states to your turtle because those are the states
>you think you would have if you were the turtle.
Did he say that?
> That's what empathy is,
That is a rather new definition of it.
Actually the first time I hear that one.

>and that's how we empathize with other human beings too.
Well, WE certainly don't, as here empathy is often referring to magic
emotional communication and I am real bad at that.

If you use the eyes and not the magic channels that is your choice,
others might use other channels.

Just because you are sense censored it is wrong to go WEing for people
of different continents and different cultures, regardless if they are
MBD and don't have a load of emotional programs in the first place,
autist or blind and possibly using other input a lot, very smell
oriented, etc.

Are you US American?
I do not recall any other land with so many people going WEing for I
as if they thought themselves the center of the universe and all of
the same opinions they have.

>(dogs and cats, for example) don't feel pain or anger or jealousy.

Those I cam to know could feel many sorts of pain.

Instead of anger I'd rather use upsetment.

With jealousy that might depend on the definition of that 
and also on different persons, especially with dogs.

>  Are we somehow chemically priviledged that we have the machinery for those emotions,
I am not sure who is all included in the we, as humans are not the
only for those emotions listed, nor get why jealousy and maybe anger
too and certain forms of pain should be a priviledge.

>(...) Or is our brain organized in such a way that we can
>somehow generate emotions through a feat of supreme mental computation,
>whereas creatures with less cognitive and logical horsepower can't
>(answer: no). Quite the contrary. The closer you are to being eaten, the
>more acutely you're likely to feel emotion, which would put turtles
>pretty much at the top of the list if it weren't for that shell.
IMO b.s. 
But that's not something I feel like talking about here for serious.
Same for the following, which sounds like someone did not ge a single
thousand emotional programs of different emotion generators and
mingles them into vague terms like happy or sad.

> Humans can be sad, happy, etc. and will have similar external
>correlates to these states.

And referring to what I can perceive of others I am not sure I get why
humans should be set that far apart from all others.
You do not seriously assume that I do share all emotional programs
with a non MBD male genetically very different within human range from
me African person. I tend to not even get the magic tuning well with
some. People are inside about as different as outside for me.
Males tend to have a whole load of programs that are registering as
emotional but do not transfer into meaning, females tend to have a
load of stuff where oten I feel I lack programs physically, and of
course all mammals and many others that I am related with a share some
stuff in common with, for me with many we are as related as our bones.

Guess I must have too different attitudes to even get part of this
super differentiation off all other and being ever so different.

Just some example coming to mind, but once I was a the shore of a tiny
lake and interrupted a conversation with a human and said something
like that I want to communicate with a bird shortly, answered the
bird's question and then turned back to my human friend and had my
tracks free again for her.

The human friend is pretty different from me and her ancestors are of
the Roma gypsies and the bird ways more different and a swan, 
but if I'd be discriminating against anyone not like me and having my
form of MBD, and pretending not to understand them, 
I could as well become a hermit.

>You must differentiate between the machinery and the emotional state

>If complexity is not an issue, what, then, is the function of the brain with respect to conciousness? 
Which one of the consciousnesses?

The brain is big, but most sectors I know are not conscious, just one
other one I know I do not want to write about is conscious apart from
my sector bunch, and there is one I never accessed in aware from, and
some said that it is conscious.

You generalize too much.

But since you seem to like that how about generalizing it that the
function of the brain is to be steering centers of the body and of
some parts internal-external data correlations.

My function is an energy selector, especially into the cingulate
gyrus, and a priority giver.

I am one of the two thinkers of the brain, and center of my sort of
CPU, the sequencer (auto pilot) is another.

We are the two great command centers of the brain concerning internal
- external data correlations. I believe we are having extensions banks
in the frontal cortex (me lower front, sequencer upper area) that give
us more parallel tracks. That way we can also concentrate longer.
To a limited extent we are sort of reserve functions for each other,
in case one of us gets damaged.

Then there is a bunch of emotion generators, shareware, lots of other
stuff and a load of body regulators that I do not understand.

... I guess you should decide if you want the function of the brain
generalized, or conscious area(s) functions,
and if the latter decide which one,
and then find someone who is willing to share with you a little of
what he knows about that.

>Are emotional states independant of conciousness, (...)
>>are you perhaps arguing for a hard dualism, in which conciousness is a
>>seperate entity?

I believe he just does not understand himself nor subprograms of the
emotion generators.

I guess one could simplify it enormously that I know of two emotions
to do with me myself, too.
And that in my brain surfing times I had alteration powers what I
estimate to be thousands of them in the first and third emotion
generator, and there seemed to branch a lot of stuff in and out of the
third emotion generator, which seemed about the second oldest that I
recall incountering in my brain. I'd call it very old instinct

If guessing historic age, that would be very old, eg.3 (mainly
hatching rank-fighting and aggression programs) old, eg.1 (for example
mammal and herd-binding programs) and me (energy data selector, eg.4
to do with impatience and certain humour), like we are now, middle,
and eg.2 (upsetment) new, and I guess eg.6 (laughter) as well.

"In old function I seem to turn older in historic function origin
than in now-functions", but I am not able to guess my historic age

If merrily guessing within "seeing" I mentioned that "sensor helmet"
function once and an embryo in sixth month, 
and then some stage where I suspected that the language structurer and
other frontal areas are doing a function shift which might be older,
but I do not know how old,

and if going between there,
I guess that is what some mean with according questions,
though I am not sure if that is what you meant and if you get what I

My dream I self perception seems even older in a way.

Bit chaotic own - I development guess list:

If I were to GUESS (but I do not know if this life or my ancestors
historically or both) I turned an I as a sort of longish being in the
water, or at least that is one of the earliest program bunches that I
ever came across,

(and then that dream-I is a complicated mix, but I'd stick it here)

and then the one with the front for sensor where I do not know how far

(and then MAYBE sort of more human because of the language structurer
starting out)
and then quite a bit more modern the one with the "sensor helmet" 

(and then MAYBE the language structurer becoming more complex)
and the neocortex wrinkling into newer functions and a lot of sensory
programs not used programs anymore 
apart from people into magic, enlightenment, etc. [neuron amount seems
different than original programs meant for according stages, emotion
generator changes seeming suspicious].  

BTW, someone wanted me to imagine to be sort of a lizard or dinosaur
moving on four feet and I did not manage.

And though I am not sure how much was imagination with the
under-(greenish)water-being stuff I had trouble because according to
the programs the eyes should have been more to the sides and the skull
ways smaller and sectors in different positions.

That felt like the oldest load of programs I ever became aware of so


Sorry for evading answering more, but a serious answer to some of what
I know about such for me is to do with LSD teaching on unhealthy
"autist semi-segregation amount", which last I agreed to someday do
for someone I know a little who jumped out the window last year and
wants to understand more about himself within, and that is different
to some nerds doing speculations to satisfy their greed for data on
the costs of unconsenting ones of other races or with the plan in the
head to build others not for the benefit of those.


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