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robot bains

Cijadrachon cijadra at zedat.fu-berlin.de
Thu Mar 11 18:06:49 EST 1999


(Maybe skip.)

dmb106 & Michael Edelman wrote:

>The robot is.
And a stone and a human and a plant. Now, who would have thought so? 

>> You are nothing more that an intentional system. 

"You" referring to what structures?
And we to whom?

>> We  ascribe beleifs and desires to you because that gives us most
>> > predictive power and understanding.

I also did not get why ascribing "beleifs" and desires to a you is
supposed to give your WEs more predictive power and understanding than
knowing them. Apart from that with some belief might not play a very
dominant role.
 
>> If you are the intentional system, you are doing the writing. 
Logic error.

>If you maintain that the brain is doing the writing,
If someone has not gotten yet that the brain consists of many parts
with many intentions, and that those are not all congruent with the
ones to do with writing, I doubt that one came far in understanding
the brain.

> you may as well say that the hand is doing the writing. What is the prime mover?

I guess the sequencer (see previous texts).

But not for single fingers.

Don't know where that is.

>No, there is no data processing in the hand. 
Of course there is. Unless maybe you chop off the hand and freeze it
at zero K.

>The fact that we are aware of the meaning of the
>data we process, the fact that the processing is accessable to
>processing, and that each concept is part of a conceptual background
>is what makes us beleive we are free agents. 

I still do not get which WEs you are talking about. 
Are you from the USA?

I do not believe that I am aware of all the data I process nor do I
believe to be a free agent. (Try to stop breathing and you might find
out about some agents within the next minutes.)

>There is no need to postulate a prime mover, 

That might depend on the case, but usually not.

Or at least for me it is sufficient to know
if I write and there is something not going the way I want, if it is
to do with me myself, the language structurer or the sequencer or
something feeling like to do with energy imbalances or something to do
with the arm / hand / fingers or if I took some drugs or am very tired
or other stuff like that.

>no more than it is necessary to postulate an
>initiator neurone. 

I might have the idea to do stuff like postulting prime movers, though
if I has it I guess I'd need to more about areas and subprograms of
the thalamus & brain stem and subprograms of the striata.
But the idea that nyone would have the idea to postulate an initiator
neurone sounds a bit weird to me.

Though with some of the sense censored neuros I would not put it
beyond them, telepathically some thousands of years backwards in
telepathy & magic and not far in physics I do not seriously expect
them to understand much about the brain subatomically, and without
that I guess some simple "field" observations and some more complicted
ones like the cooperation between "subatomic field" stuff and neurons
might be a bit beyond a load of them. 

But I figure within the next decades Western neurology might feel a
bit too stupid to have decided to stay sense censored and thousands of
years backwards in magic, and I guess within the next centuries they
might be at some different (cybermagic) levels.

Ones where you subatomically check stuff in the brain and do not need
to wonder about a lot folks wonder about now.

>Think of the concept of the grandmother neurone. 

I did not understand that one and seem not able to find compatible
according system's data if I ask for "two cells backwards".
(Just eventually made me while away time with suspicions and theories
about akasha alterations effecting helix and other cell stuff 
within my systems previous developments.) 

What is the grandmother neurone and what structures does it have and
from what does it develop and what does it do?
 
>> >  I agree that self-awareness is the heart of conciousness,

I'd more put it that the I's of the brain are consciousnesses.

The bit with the heart I would not use there.

For example what I call  the sequencer  often is processing a lot of
stuff, but not yet the own existing. 

>> but if this is the case ask your self one more question...
>> > What is the difference between being self aware and behaving as though
>> > you are self aware?

"I".   

"Who" and "what".

The sequencer for me is a what on the prestage to who,
while us I areas are whos.

Try magically tuning for another's cholinergic limbic I areas, for the
occiptal cortex and a plastic chair, then you might notice some of the
differences.

>> (...) our idea of the existence of self-awareness
>> is based on the notion that we all share the experience of self-awareness.

I still did not get who your WE's are, though by now I feel pretty
sure that likely not people with parents with Alzheimer.

I am, the other I is, and if others have such a  double I like us
mammals or one or several different self-aware centers I guess I could
speculate a while about, while wondering why currently the clouds here
fly west (they tend to fly east and already north would be pretty
amazing for me) and wondering if I should smoke another joint...
 
> It is just that I maintain the expirience of self-awareness
>to be a computable process. 

How?

>> > ...A rat is aware that a red light means food,
"A" rat certainly not, I'd assume that the according rat lives in some
place where nture was pretty messed up by humans.

>> for example, and it

Persons of the rat race tend to be she or he.

Or do you mean that of us mammals the own I areas as sort of
cholinergic limbic energy selectors are ITs, though sexual
differentiation playing roles in other areas a lot,  
and if naming our own I "it" we mammals should be regarded as its?

But given the connections with other areas I might still prefer (s)he,
unless the other's own I is so dominant, thta it might seem more
appropriate.

>> behaves in such a way so as to eat. 
That sounds more like a lot to do with the sequencer.

For that "systems bunch" "it" might be O.K. , 
but with your next "we"ing I again do not know whom you mean.

Maybe at some point you should come to know your areas in the brain
better, so that for others it might be easier to get with your Is, ITs
and WEs to know who or what is meant with the according references. 

>We do not, however, ascribe any
>> > internal life to the rat.

Ah, so the rat you are talking about is dead and frozen at minus 273 o
C or something like that? How then does the trick with the eating go?
 
>> Though perhaps we should.
Yep, perhaps your WEs should.

Unless the rat is at zero Kelvin in space or for other reasons rather
reasons having no internal life.

>> It is not that we deny the rat an external life- 

You did not see the rat poison warnings here in the park years ago,
.. and then I stopped sometimes seeing foxes there.   :-(

>> it is not necessary to ascribe this to explain most rat behavior.

Now you have me lost. Before we were still at the self aware centers,
now I am not sure if you are going on about the sequencer of someone
person of another race or different areas to do with behaviours,
according to the individual maybe on quite different settings, or if
you mean some generalized rat, sort of guessing an average of all
there are or something else.

Might be simpler if you make more references to functions or / and
locations you talk about.

It is pretty confusing, after WE's that do not mean me  so it must be
some other WEs, to have self-awareness first in the singular and
trying to imagine a permanent connection with another I area to follow
better what you might mean, then suddenly having a jump to another
person of another mammal race, then stuff about a red light meaning
food to "it" which to me more sounds like some human concept,  and
then going on about the other mammal not having inner life, though
just before the person still sounded like living and eating in rather
unnatural circumstances. At external life and explaining most rat
behaviour I fail to follow. Concerning behaviour so far I did not even
get if we are talking about a male or a female.

If not even knowing if talking about a man or a woman of a race of
very different person(alitie)s I guess understanding the behaviour of
another person can't be that important to who asks in such
undifferentiated way without even seeming aware of it.

Maybe you should be friends with different persons of the other race
and then you might learn more about those are alike and where they are
very different. And you might also learn more about behaviours where
you do not have enough structure alikeness to transit that directly,
but eventually learn more about them.


>OK, but do you or not? Do you think the rat is thinking, in the same
>way we think, about food, and the *meaning* of the red light?

Actually I am not sure I myself would think much about food or red
lights at times, that is basically sequencer stuff, what can it think
for. 
If I'd bother with any artificial nuisance that some humans construct
to think about it forever I'd have to keep docking with the sequencer
and keep straining.
That'd suck.

;-)


The problem is that you do not mention the WEs you mean, nor tell me
about the rat you are referring to.

How am I supposed to know the persons whom you are referring to?


I guess one could go for stupid simplifying games like deviding humans
into

Two main thinkers:  
1.: Usually split    2 : Rarely split  3.:Giving the sequencer
sometimes central control with oneself as sub-CPU  

And the own I areas   pretty logical  / pretty unlogical
and those and the front and maybe even the sequencer quite MBD / not
MBD

and a load of data about other stuff, including food,

and then going on for ages about the other one.

I guess here some punks might start with if it was a child of a street
rat and another rat 
or one of them white lab mutations (former rated as tending to be ways
ore intelligent than the latter and the latter rated to often have
dangerous other alterations).

Next question might be if the person grew up as a prisoner 
or maybe sleeping cuddled to a punkie in the park and maybe in his
pocket or moving around on him when he is going to some suited
sponging site with folks who might give him a mark, and there, maybe
depending on the area and if his friend warns about it or indicates it
is O.K., being with him or moving around. Or having grown up in nature
without humans having played that much of personal role.

... And so on. By the time one has speculated all options to do with
the thinking areas or an unknown rat and those of some humans not
personally known, it might be easier to go akasha surfing with a few
of the humans, become aquainted better with the according rat, and
then ponder the question. 

You could as well ask me what is the difference concerning the
favourite colours of humans in Ireland and Borneo.


Maybe that is why some want to make robot brains though there are not
even enough human and other living brains faring well enough.


... But I start to understand your bit about ascribing belief giving
you understanding better.


But taking me and guessing about some "punk" rats, I guess I might be
annoyed that someone did come up with something where I need to dock
and take central eye control to figure out where we are more exactly
and what is up out there, then (maybe after some loud or silent
cursing or/and jokes, the latter maybe on if the thingie was invented
of someone fat who inteded to install it in front of his fridge) I
guess I'd stay online long enough till the sequencer gets it alone,
and we'd segregated again and central eye-control and navigation would
be with the sequencer again, after I instructed it where to go / what
to do next.

And if it was often then after a while the sequencer should get it
without me.

I guess rats I met had less frontal capacities as backup and did not
have the explanations I had about such stuff. They seemed to have a
neat smell sense and I am not sure on which ranges they can all
perceive and if it would be perceived as red, but usually they seem to
see me from quite some distance if they want.

So I guess they might take longer than me to figure the stuff out and
for the way there might use smell more as an orientation, and I am not
sure if they would perceive it as red or transit according energy
ranges different than I do.
When doing it often enough I guess they could get the sequencer to run
stuff for them, too.

With the sequencers I am not entirely sure 
about thinking capacity differences, as I did not pay attention to
observing such, so I do not know whose would score higher for
intelligence.

So just for merry theorizing let's say a rat thinks longer about such
than me, has a different energy range perception concering the light,
and that I switch such stuff faster to the sequencer's thinking than
the rat, but that I do not entirely exclude that my sequencer's
thinking abilities are lower.

I still don't get what such theorizing is supposed to be good for.


I mean, it is obvious that rat or even another human will not think
exactly like me myself and tht even in twins there tend to be
structure differences, 
that my curses might sound different than a rats sounds, that the rat
won't use German words about idiots not having enough artificial
ranges yet and needing to molest me with them, and so on.
And most knowing my food choice in the last year might come to the
conclusion that many rats might be more show more intelligence in food
choice. 


>Self-awareness is but one property of a concious agent.

I find it a rather main one. 

But if wanting to go into detail feel free to go on maybe for the rest
of your life about other functions of your conscious areas.

Especially for the vocabulary I might find it some of it interesting.

Lacking several million words there.

>Wherever you go, there is intuition staring you in your face. 
Try for areas with few satellites, maybe jungle with lots of leaves
above.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
(Nonsense...)

;-)  :

... Maybe people like institutions, because then, if some jungle being
successfully put your mother on the dining list, you could call the
"jungle sucks!" institution: "Arrrgh, my mother was eaten!"
"So she won't suck anymore, heehee". "That's not cool, I'll call some
other institution and complain about yours!" "That sucks, heh-hee!"

"Hello Institution for Sticking Humans Into Cages And The Like? My
mother was eaten in the jungle and I wish to file a complaint against
someone insulting in the department... "  "Sorry, but the collegue for
that was on holidays in the Bermuda Triangle.  He seems to have had
some delay. Please come back when he returned. 
Here are a dozen truckloads of papers to file at the subdepartment
"Registering Institution for Recently Deceased with no Corpses Left"
"Gnagnagnarrrrgh!" 
"I wish you a nice day, too. Next one, please!"

"Hello Institution for People with a Mental Crisis? My mother was
eaten, my back and joints hurt terribly though I have not even carried
the first 250 kg of papers to register her death up the stairs past
the broken elevator yet, the advertising senders did burst my
letter-box, my pet roach ate from my food in the fridge and croaked, 
The Instition for Grave Situations refused that on the stone I write 
" ...the according remaining shit hopefully rests peacefully in the
jungle and here rests my beloved pet roach".     The Department for
Pay US to Rule U  decided to pilfer more of my money so that they can
pay themselves triple the salery I get,
my boy-friend left me, my husband won the first price of the
Institution for the Annual Global Snoring Volume Contest, my lover
said that I got quite some wrinkles in the last years 
and I think you ought to know that I feel rather depressed."
"That sounds like it could be a serious version of the Marvin Syndrome
taking many years of money for our Institution to cure you.
How is your relation to your mother?"
"Currently rather distant."
"How long has that been so?"
"She was consumed about 13 hours ago."  "What unfortunte a time 4 U."
"I had hoped you could give me some more inner understanding so that I
might handle this crises and help with my depressions."
"Very important are (German : ) Freud & Leid am Sex.  For better inner
understanding: There is the I, over-I and IT, the latter consisting of
many undifferentiated cell sorts, transmitters, hormones, etc., and if
that is too complicated reduce it to THE consciouS and THE
Subconscious.
(Sub)conscious. 
Not that difficult to remember.
So much about some important psychological understaning.
For depressions: Come here for first some pills and then some others
and then some others and if that does not help for some brain
electro-frying till you twitch, and don't forget to leave your
signatures on some paper stuff here below the picture of a pig with
money slot."
"Thanks for the good advice, that was really helpful, where would I be
without institutions to help me?"
"Not here. 
If there are still suited places without them we suppose we could try
to open a branch there, too.
...Oh, one of the pill - pilelines of the Pharma Institute that
financed part of my training and part of some colleagues' projects got
something stuck in the delivery systems, excuse me."


"Hello Institute for Physical Health Problems?
When I was very upset my left arm started tingling in a strange way
and my heart is hurting so much ..."
"Here is the automatic answering machine of the Build Annoying Devices
Institution. After advertising for our all our other products, some
music a poem and some other surprises, there will come a load of
numbers you have to press without making errors.  So far the only one
who managed to get to the beep-tone for recording afterwards 
was a Chess Champion from Russia. ...."                 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Once upon a time two people were trying to hitting each other with
clubs and wanting some of the few possessions of the other.
After a while a rich merchant came by.
The two looked at each other, and then convinced the merchant, that he
is giving them his possessions.
With those they hired some more people and robbed and occasionally
people, till they were kings of lands and their sons inheriting their
richness and power. Then each convinced the people in his area, that
if paying him protection taxes, he'd protect them better from the
others, and also there'd be a few job openings, as he'd need some
people for some institution he wanted to make for that and to support
the heriditary institution he was founding. And he employed some of
the ones not too specialized on stuff were others made more money of
which he would get a percentage.
Humans good in something and studying and doing it often could become
much better in that than others, so many people had specialized.

Soon they decided that constant price competition would not be that
good and ganged up and built an "institution" and decided, that there
could only be a certain number of masters of a trade working in a
place as small as theirs and "disencouraged" non-members of their
institution to even just try.

Soon it became custom that if you wanted to work in one of their
groups, first you studied there, then walked to other masters araound
to update with current data, and only when a master place was free,
maybe due to death, to become one of the masters of an institution of
people of that branch.

After all got many children for some generations, and the power-greedy
pilfered some more and got some more tax areas/payers and invented
some more taxes, it got a bit tricky to keep track if the sheep all
had been milked, so they looked for someone able to count and write
well enough to keeping track of such stuff for them and to educate
them some people to read and write O.K. enough for tasks that got a
bit too big to remeber them all and keep track of all alone.

Then some had the idea to found an institution for a very specialized
training, and as many of those people hd primitive rank fighting
progrms invented some titles and awards and for some impressive
looking documents and other stuff  with which some liked to impress
others.

When it became too many people for some of the institutions, they
decided  that to select better or with less trouble  they first wanted
applicants to have some documents from other institutions, and
selected some that they were used to or favoured for other reasons.

And if their ancestors have not died, they are still at
institutionalizing.

The End.



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