REM Sleep And Learning

maxwell mmmaxwell at hotmail.com
Mon Jun 11 15:23:59 EST 2001


SA <nospam at nospam.net> wrote in message
news:nospam-6A129E.10485911062001 at lsnewsr1-27.we.mediaone.net...
> In article <9g1j7f$6ft91$1 at ID-81739.news.dfncis.de>,
>  "maxwell" <mmmaxwell at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > SA <nospam at nospam.net> wrote in message
> > news:nospam-38405F.15171210062001 at lsnewsr1-27.we.mediaone.net...
> > > In article <9g0b38$68o0o$1 at ID-34153.news.dfncis.de>,
> > >  "Karl Self" <karl.self at gmx.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > "maxwell" <mmmaxwell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Some think that there's consolidation more of
procedural/implicit in
> > slow wave, but the parceling-out of memory types, procedural <|>
explicit
> > versus slow wave  REM sleep is itself likely over-simplifying.
> > > >
> > > >     I agree with you on that one -- we have finally found some
> > common ground!
> > >
> > > Who thinks there is consolidation of procedural/implicit memory in
> > slow wave? There is no evidence for a lengthy consolidation process
in any
> > > form of implicit learning (at least not yet), the evidence is that
> > these memories are acquired in their respective permanent locations.
> >
> > Please state what 'respective permanent locations' you mean, and can
you
> > reconcile this claim with distributed parallel processing?
> > Did I say "lengthy consolidation process" ?
>
> My point is there is no evidence for a "consolidation process" (except
> maybe lasting 2 h or so) in implicit memory,so why would you need
sleep
> to consolidate it.

Really? Okay --We'll just believe you ?

Now you discuss declarative memory:

 The theory in declarative memory is that sleep aids
> in the consolidation from a hippocampus to cortical state, i.e.,
> hippocampus is a fast learning, cortex is a slow learning, and the
> hippocampus needs to replay it using sharp waves to get it into the
> cortex... this process in rats is argued to take >30 days, and in
> humans, many years. This makes sense.


> On the other hand, most implicit  memory is argued

By whom, besides you ?

 to stay at the site of acquisition (e.g., visual
> cortex, basal ganglia, cerebellu, amygdala) and there is no evidence,
> lesion or otherwise, of a lengthy (> 2 h) consolidation process like
> there is with declarative memory.


Did I say "lengthy consolidation process" ?
Have you actually read either of those Plihal papers, or that of
Stickland, or
the work of McNaughton ?


  I mean, I think the the concept is
> interesting but premature and uncessary for procedural memory. If
> anything I think it weakens the case that sleep is involved in
> consolidation, since for implicit memory, there is no evidence for a
> consolidation process.

Thanks for the opinions. Got anything citable to support them?

>
> >
> > ...to get you started WRT procedural mem. in respect to SWS:
> >
> > Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience 1997 9(4):534-547
> > Effects of early and late nocturnal sleep on declarative and
procedural
> > memory.
> > Plihal,-Werner; Born,-Jan
> > Universitaet Bamberg, Germany; Physiologische Psychologie
> > Recall of paired-associate lists (declarative memory) and
mirror-tracing
> > skills (procedural memory) was assessed after retention intervals
> > defined over early and late nocturnal sleep. In addition, effects of
> > sleep on recall were compared with those of early and late retention
> > intervals filled with wakefulness. 20 healthy males (aged 21-38 yrs)
> > served as Ss. Saliva cortisol concentrations were determined before
and
> > after the retention intervals to determine pituitary-adrenal
secretory
> > activity. Sleep generally enhanced recall when compared with the
effects
> > of corresponding retention intervals of wakefulness. The benefit
from
> > sleep on recall depended on the phase of sleep and on the type of
> > memory: Recall of paired-associate lists improved more during early
> > sleep, and recall of mirror-tracing skills improved more during late
> > sleep. The effects may reflect different influences of slow wave
sleep
> > (SWS) and REM sleep since time in SWS was 5 times longer during the
> > early than late sleep retention interval, and time in REM sleep was
> > twice as long during late than early sleep. Changes in cortisol
> > concentrations, which independently of sleep and wakefulness were
lower
> > during early retention intervals than late ones, cannot account for
the
> > effects of sleep on memory.
> >
> > nature neuroscience 3(12) december 2000
> > Early sleep triggers memory for early visual discrimination skills
> > Steffen Gais, Werner Plihal, Ullrich Wagner and Jan Born
> > Clinical Neuroendocrinology, Medical University of Lübeck,
Ratzeburger
> > Allee 160/Hs 23a, 23538, Lübeck, Germany
> > Improvement after practicing visual texture discrimination does not
> > occur until several hours after
> > practice has ended. We show that this improvement strongly depends
on
> > sleep. To specify the
> > process responsible for sleep-related improvement, we compared the
> > effects of 'early' and 'late'
> > sleep, dominated respectively by slow-wave and rapid eye movement
(REM)
> > sleep. Discrimination skills significantly improved over early
sleep,
> > improved even more over a whole night's sleep, but did not improve
after
> > late sleep alone. These findings suggest that procedural memory
> > formation is prompted by slow-wave sleep-related processes. Late REM
> > sleep may promote memory formation at a second stage, only after
periods
> > of early sleep have occurred.
> >
> > and also, WRT Stickgold...
> >
http://www.med.harvard.edu/publications/Focus/1999/Mar19_1999/psych.html
> >
> > There's also some recent stuff by Bruce McNaughton-- perhaps someone
> > else has the refs.
> > near at hand.
> >
> > -maxwell
> >
> >
> >





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