Help and guide with possible neurological problems

et_al at et_al at
Fri Oct 26 03:43:15 EST 2001

On 25 Oct 2001 11:57:31 GMT, liar42 at (Liar42) wrote:

>>Carlette, I feel that your symptoms are probably due to a worsening of
>your anxiety disorder following the birth of your baby, not a rare
>And I feel that only idiots would call the orders of anxieties disorders.

Well, when you spent years locked in a bathroom because its the only
room in the house where you feel safe, and your food gets shoved under
the door 3 times a day; or where the only places you've been in the last
30 years is your home, where you work and the roads that make up the
shortest distance in between; or when you are incapable of even walking
from your front door to the mail box because your are gripped by
unspeakable terror within a few feet;  or you've treated patients like
this, then I may consider listening to your claims that anxiety
disorders aren't really disorders. Until then you are just another
blowhard who hasn't a clue!

>... I have often enough had high fears in my life, and there is no tingling of
>the face, nor a clogged  feeling in the ears ears connected with that, nor
>strong headaches, nor any particular left-sidedness for problems.
>I had pellet whizzing over my head, and was even more worried that my partner
>will get killed, who already two times had been hit by projectiles, and still
>did not get any such problems, though I am sure my adrenaline levels were
>remarkable compared to usual levels in my systems.
>I used to be an adrenaline boost seeker when I was younger, and from about 6
>years of age till into my twenties was searching systematically situations of
>high adrenaline; as a teeny no scaffold of a house was safe from me trying to
>climb is where I lived, 
>sometimes I liked to dangled on one arm over a depth of maybe ten meters or
>more, I liked to go into empty houses when I was younger and later also down
>into bunkers in Berlin, 
>and also often was hours alone in the woods and also at night time, and
>travelled alone to Africa, once had soldiers of an army come for me, 
>once balanced over a wall where to the left it went down several dozen meters
>and I do not believe I would have survived a fall, 
>already in Kindergarden amazed personal there when I had climbed up one of the
>trees where they had cut off the lower branches to prevent such (which I had
>not even noticed, I had used a metal climbing thingie for children to from
>there get into the tree)
>and had in short what might be regarded a partially quite adventurous life,
>where in many years I systematically searched out adrenaline hammering though
>my systems, and I guess I was sort of an adrenaline junky until I started out
>into LSD, after which I got a bit less adventurous maybe but for that maybe
>internally more adventurous.
None of the above means you understand the fear that a mind can
generate. Add up all the duration of the fears you've had, and they may
come to a few hours. That is the terror someone with an untreated
anxiety disorder feels most of the day. Every day! But unlike your
experiences, they have no threat, no thrill from the adrenaline and
cortisol surging through body, just unimaginable terror. Those with
untreated panic disorder kill themselves at 7-8 times the general
population rate. Even with treatment, something like 25% attempt
suicide. Many succeed. They don't do that because they have a normal
fear reaction, but because they feel terror, and hopelessness.

>I have had various sorts of fear in my life, not just those I described, and
>the signs listed there are unknown to me, I do not get  tingling face from such
>nor headaches in the left side nor other problems described there.
You'd be surprised what effects anxiety can generate. Remember that its
produced in the limbic system, which is also the main switchboard
between the cognitive brain and the body.

>However where I get tingling in the fingers and dizziness and other problems
>maybe can be sugar problems.
Or it may be caused by hyperventilation, which is something
anxiety/panic patients are prone to doing as anxiety symptoms can be
triggered by even small increases in plasma CO2 levels.

>(Which might also be accompanied by different colourings in the fingernails and
>maybe also lips, but as that was not mentioned there I doubted that it was
>Tinglings can be signs of something wrong with the blood supply.
Yep, too much, less commonly too little, oxygen.

>>Basically, you have two choices, medication and therapy.<
>That means translated to chemically attack brain systems neurology does not
>understand that much about with drugs, and also organs like the kidneys,

The liver actually.

>because some stupidheads are not even bothering to understand their functions
>well first before they start to mess up functions they do not even understand,
>and means that persons who'd not be able to list the 5 most psychologically
>relevant systems in functions differences are supposed to make some sort of
>That might then result in someone who does not have a clue about many brain
>systems functions letting someone dig up stuff that that person is not really
>ready for yet, 

I suggest you find out what Cognitive Behaviour Therapy, or one of its
cousins, REBT etc, the only therapies with a good track record, are all
about (see: They don't involve digging up
things in the past.

>to then not give advice, expecting the person is going to find
>solutions, as if then alone they could not have done that before, and then send
>them home with a bunch of stuff dug up, to give some other data where to go on
>with that procedure.
>A method that I estimate about as dangerous as those of Scientology, surpassed
>by far by psychiatry with the chemical attacks on brain systems and body organs
People have now been taking antidepressants for about 40 years. Quite a
large number continually for almost all that time. There is no evidence
that they damage the brain. Same goes for the benzodiazepines.

>Only an idiot of thousands of ways on Earth would just see two.
>There are very many ways that one can deal with internal fears,
>more ways than anyone on Earth might have bothered to count.
>One for example might be called realism, to check first how realistic a fear
>is, like if one is really in danger to die there, for example, or if it is more
>something rather irrelevant in comparison,

What you'd just described is one of the things they teach in Cognitive
Behaviour Therapy. So maybe shrinks aren't as clueless as you seem to

>and a naturalistic attitude that is working on understanding fears to do with
>different systems in the head&body in their original natural functions 
>and strives to learn to control them differently after understanding them
Again, part of CBT/REBT etc

>Good teachers in life can also be those who had similar problems and learned to
>deal with them differingly.
>Another teaching system might be called Death,
>and is used in different forms, including in a martial art,
>to realize that one might die tomorrow or in a few years 
>and to learn to give things in life different relevance of what is really
>important and what is not really that important when considering that.
>Different cultures have very different attitudes to such.
>Differing attitudes might be alone reflected if comparing writings of Carlos
>Castaneda to Tao Te King, just as two writings to do with attitudes towards
>life from two different continents.
>> Antidepressants are fairly safe when it comes to breast feeding and even
>during pregnancy. <
>Are you nuts?!
Probably, but my psychiatrist thinks I can still be allowed to mix with
"normal" folk.

>Your advertizing for messing around in someone else who never agreed, and that
>even in a time where so many systems are devoloping, 
>and then on top of that calling chemical attacks on important internal systems
>"medicine" show more how utterly mad you are.
And if you knew a bit more you would know that allowing a woman to
endure unremitting anxiety during the pregnancy also harms the fetus's
brain. There is much evidence that anxious mothers produce anxious
babies because her high cortisol and other adrenal hormone levels can
adversely affect the growing brain.

Would you stop an epileptic mother from taking her medication during

>I bet you could not even list the functions of the systems that get chemically
>attacked there, nor make a good list concerning if there will be receptor
>molecule changes in sectors, nor what that all can have for effects concerning
>later imbalances.
Are you aware that these disorders themselves cause changes in receptor
densities. Do some research on benzo receptor binding sites, you may be
amazed. I've cited a few papers below the sig. [1]

Quite a large number of children have now been born to mothers who took
antidepressants during pregnancy. There is no evidence that any damage
has been caused.

>You are not even understanding the sources of fears internally, and you made
>that very clear here,

At least, being a panic disorder sufferer, I know what a panic attack
feels like. You obviously don't.

>and next instead of teaching how to handle anxieties better,
>you suggest basically to chemically attack brain systems and body organs until
>they cannot function properly anymore, 

For the record, I did mention therapy.

And where is your evidence that antidepressants or benzodiazepines
"attack" brain systems - citations please.

>just to warp them out of functions till
>even that is not working anymore, along with so many other functions that they
>have, while own I in that brain still has not learned to handle these fears.
Despite what you appear to believe, the physical brain processes that
underlie anxiety, and also the effects medications have are well known
and there is no evidence that harm results to those that take these

>If you had any medical advice giving profession and I could withdraw your
>practicing licence I'd straight do that with you madhead.
Fortunately, you are unlikely to ever have such a responsibility. Thank

>If you have nothing to do rather learn about emotional systems in your head and
>systems functions so much, that at least one gets the impression concerning
>anxieties you learned to discern between the most relevant systems there,
>before you open your mouth about such,
>and next read about receptor molecule alterations before you make dumbhead
>propaganda about psychodrugs and make it sound all nicy-nicy and harmless.
The difference between us is that I not only know something about what I
write, I also have panic disorder and therefore know what the enquirer
is experiencing.  When you can make the same two claims, perhaps we can
continue the discussion.

In addition to checking out receptor densities, also do some research
into the role of auto-immune triggered OCD (and there is much new work
suggesting that cytokines play a role in anxiety and depression - see
[2] below), the work being done at Wisconsin University into the role of
gestation on the later psychological makeup of children and adults, etc.
In fact just do some checking of the whole subject, because its clear
you don't have a clue about anxiety disorders.


Bremner JD, Innis RB, Southwick SM, et al. (2000)
"Decreased benzodiazepine receptor binding in prefrontal cortex in
combat-related posttraumatic stress disorder."
Am J Psychiatry Jul; vol 157(7):1120-6

Bremner JD, Innis RB, White T, et al (2000)
"SPECT [I-123]iomazenil measurement of the benzodiazepine receptor in
panic disorder."
Biol Psychiatry  Jan 15; vol 47(2):96-106

Malizia AL.  (1999)
"What do brain imaging studies tell us about anxiety disorders? "
J Psychopharmacol Dec; vol 13(4):372-8

Morimoto K.  (1999)
"Benzodiazepine receptor imaging in the brain: recent developments and
clinical validity."
Kaku Igaku May; vol 36(4):307-13

Lingford-Hughes AR, Acton PD, Gacinovic S, et al. (1998)
"Reduced levels of GABA-benzodiazepine receptor in alcohol dependency
in the absence of grey matter atrophy."
Br J Psychiatry Aug; vol 173:116-22

Johnson MR, Marazziti D, Brawman-Mintzer O, et al (1998)
"Abnormal peripheral benzodiazepine receptor density associated with
generalized social phobia."
Biol Psychiatry Feb 15; vol 43(4):306-9

Malizia AL, Cunningham VJ, Bell CJ, et al. (1998)
"Decreased brain GABA(A)-benzodiazepine receptor binding in panic
disorder: preliminary results from a quantitative PET study."
Arch Gen Psychiatry Aug; vol 55(8):715-20

Rocca P, Beoni AM, Eva C, et al. (1998)
"Peripheral benzodiazepine receptor messenger RNA is decreased in
lymphocytes of generalized anxiety disorder patients."
Biol Psychiatry May 15; vol 43(10):767-73

Tiihonen J, Kuikka J, Rasanen P, et al. (1997)
"Cerebral benzodiazepine receptor binding and distribution in
generalized anxiety disorder: a fractal analysis."
Mol Psychiatry Oct-Nov; vol 2(6):463-71

Tokunaga M, Ida I, Higuchi T, Mikuni M. (1997)
"Alterations of benzodiazepine receptor binding potential in anxiety
and somatoform disorders measured by 123I-iomazenil SPECT."
Radiat Med May-Jun; vol 15(3):163-9

Uchiyama M, Sue H, Fukumitsu N, et al. (1997)
"Assessment of cerebral benzodiazepine receptor distribution in
anxiety disorders by 123I-iomazenil-SPECT: comparison to cerebral
perfusion scintigraphy by 123I-IMP."
Nippon Igaku Hoshasen Gakkai Zasshi Jan; vol 57(1):41-6

Roy-Byrne P, Wingerson DK, Radant A,  et al. (1996)
"Reduced benzodiazepine sensitivity in patients with panic disorder:
comparison with patients with obsessive-compulsive disorder and normal
Am J Psychiatry Nov; vol 153(11):1444-9

Gavish M, Laor N, Bidder M, et al (1996)
"Altered platelet peripheral-type benzodiazepine receptor in
posttraumatic stress disorder."
Neuropsychopharmacology Mar;14(3):181-6

Kaschka W, Feistel H, Ebert D. (1995)
"Reduced benzodiazepine receptor binding in panic disorders measured
by iomazenil SPECT."
J Psychiatr Res Sep-Oct; vol 29(5):427-34

Kuikka JT, Pitkanen A, Lepola U, Partanen K,  et al. (1995)
"Abnormal regional benzodiazepine receptor uptake in the prefrontal
cortex in patients with panic disorder."
Nucl Med Commun Apr; vol 16(4):273-80

Schlegel S, Steinert H, Bockisch A,  et al. (1994)
"Decreased benzodiazepine receptor binding in panic disorder measured
by IOMAZENIL-SPECT. A preliminary report."
Eur Arch Psychiatry Clin Neurosci vol 244(1):49-51

Nutt DJ, Glue P, Lawson C, Wilson S. (1992)
"Flumazenil provocation of panic attacks. Evidence for altered
benzodiazepine receptor sensitivity in panic disorder. "
Arch Gen Psychiatry Oct; vol 47(10):917-25

Dantzer R. (1999)
"Cytokines and depression: fortuitous or causal association?" 
Molecular Psychiatry, vol 4, p 328

More information about the Neur-sci mailing list