brain sizes: Einstein's and women's

Bob LeChevalier lojbab at
Fri Aug 30 17:40:31 EST 2002

"John Knight" <jwknight at> wrote:
>Kish was not a jew.  He was an Israelite.

Jews were Israelites, specifically those Israelites of the tribe of

>Never, ever were jews ever members of any "TRIBES OF ISRAEL"!

False.  Jews were the inhabitants of Judah, taken away in captivity by
The prophecy in Jeremiah 13:
>[17] But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD's flock is carried away captive.
>[18] Say unto the king and to the queen, Humble yourselves, sit down: for your principalities shall come down, even the crown of your glory.
>[19] The cities of the south shall be shut up, and none shall open them: Judah shall be carried away captive all of it, it shall be wholly carried away captive.
and in Jeremiah 30:
>[2] Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
>[3] For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
>[4] And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

Jeremiah 52:
>[27] And the king of Babylon smote them, and put them to death in Riblah in the land of Hamath. Thus Judah was carried away captive out of his own land.
>[28] This is the people whom Nebuchadrezzar carried away captive: in the seventh year three thousand Jews and three and twenty:
>[29] In the eighteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar he carried away captive from Jerusalem eight hundred thirty and two persons:
>[30] In the three and twentieth year of Nebuchadrezzar Nebuzar-adan the captain of the guard carried away captive of the Jews seven hundred forty and five persons: all the persons were four thousand and six hundred.

Note the exact words:
JUDAH was carried away captive from his land.
Nebuchadnezzar carried away as captive several thousand JEWS.

JEWS were the people of the land of Judah, whom Nebuchadnezzar carried
away.  In Daniel 5:13, Daniel is asked:
>[13] Then was Daniel brought in before the king. And the king spake and said unto Daniel, Art thou that Daniel, which art of the children of the captivity of Judah, whom the king my father brought out of Jewry?
That last word "Jewry" is Strongs H3061.  It is the SAME word used for
both "Judah" and "Jewry" in that verse.

>dwhy contracted from a form corresponding to (03063) 
>Transliterated Word TDNT Entry 
>Y at huwd (Aramaic) None 
>Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech 
>yeh-hood'      Proper Name  
> Definition 
>Judah - the territory of the tribe of Judah 

The word is translated in the KJV in various places as "Jewry",
"Judah"  and "Judea".

Before the captivity, 1 Esdras 1 reports:
>[20] And such a passover was not kept in Israel since the time of the prophet Samuel.
>[21] Yea, all the kings of Israel held not such a passover as Josias, and the priests, and the Levites, and the Jews, held with all Israel that were found dwelling at Jerusalem.
>[22] In the eighteenth year of the reign of Josias was this passover kept.
>[23] And the works or Josias were upright before his Lord with an heart full of godliness.
>[24] As for the things that came to pass in his time, they were written in former times, concerning those that sinned, and did wickedly against the Lord above all people and kingdoms, and how they grieved him exceedingly, so that the words of the Lord rose up against Israel.

So the Israelites had not been keeping the commandment to celebrate
the Passover since the time of Samuel.  But "the priests, and the
Levites, and the Jews, held with all Israel that were found dwelling
at Jerusalem" DID keep the Passover (and note that the Jews are in
parallel to the Levites participating).  So the Jews were NOT "apart
from the Israelites" as you have argued, and worshipped God with the
rest of the Israelites who dwelled in Jerusalem, and were thus "part
of the congregation of the Lord".  So they were thus not the bastards
of Deuteronomy.

At the end of the captivity, as described in Ezra and Nehemiah, the
JEWS returned to Jerusalem and rebuilt the walls and the temple
(passages quoted in another post).  Also in 1 Esdras 4:
>[49] Moreover he wrote for all the Jews that went out of his realm up into Jewry, concerning their freedom, that no officer, no ruler, no lieutenant, nor treasurer, should forcibly enter into their doors;
>[50] And that all the country which they hold should be free without tribute; and that the Edomites should give over the villages of the Jews which then they held:
1 Esdras 5:
>[7] And these are they of Jewry that came up from the captivity, where they dwelt as strangers, whom Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon.
>[8] And they returned unto Jerusalem, and to the other parts of Jewry, every man to his own city, who came with Zorobabel, with Jesus, Nehemias, and Zacharias, and Reesaias, Enenius, Mardocheus. Beelsarus, Aspharasus, Reelius, Roimus, and Baana, their guides.
Notice that Nehemiah and Zechariah are listed among the JEWS that were
returned to JEWRY. This parallels the words of Ezra 2, which calls
these same people, the "people of Israel", mentioning many of the same
>[1] Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city;
>[2] Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel:
and in Ezra 5 again it is said that Haggai and Zechariah prophecy to
the JEWS:
>[1] Then the prophets, Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo, prophesied unto the Jews that were in Judah and Jerusalem in the name of the God of Israel, even unto them.
And then having rebuilt the Temple, the JEWS prospered through the
prophesying of Haggai and Zechariah and kept the commandment of the
God of Israel:
Ezra 6:14
>[14] And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

So 3 of the prophets of the Bible are explicitly mentioned as being
among the JEWS and prophets who guided the JEWS.

It was approximately in the time of the captivity, that the people of
Judah came to be called JEWS.  If you look in Kings and Chronicles,
and in other books, the invaders came and spoke to the people of
Jerusalem in "the language of the Jews" as opposed to "the language of
the Syrians"  (2 Chr 32:18, 2 Kin 18:26-28, Isa 36:11-13)

Note furthermore, that the name "Israelite" ceases to be used
chronologically before the word "Jew" came into use in the Bible.  The
last appearances in the historical books is 2 Kings 7 and 1 Chron 9.
After the captivity, there are no more "Israelites", but the Jews, the
Benjamites, and the Levites are collectively called "the people of
Israel" by some, but not all, of the prophets.

As usual, the nincompoop is thoroughly proven WRONG.


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