Charlie's Animal Research Lab seeks expert help.

The Puppy Wizard ThePuppyWizard at
Sat Jul 26 17:59:07 EST 2003

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer at> wrote in message
news:bfv0tq$4nl$1 at
> In article <56t5iv0ph9los9d49qjo85m30vru8krood at>
> charlie_wilkes at writes:
> >I'm not interested in what Amy thinks based on a general understanding
> >of how the thing works.  That is not science.
> >
> >I'm interested in controlled tests to document and measure the ability
> >of the DDR to influence animal behavior in a kennel or animal housing
> >facility.
> >Charlie
>  Charlie,
>  Jerry claims that the DDR will help all kinds of animals.
>  Humans are complicated animals, so why not ask Jerry to
>  have the DDR on when he posts to USENET for the month of
>  August?
>  We could then quantify the hostility of Jerry's posts
>  before, during, and after August. We might even ask
>  Jerry to reintroduce the DDR in October. This is called
>  an ABAB, single-subject design. See:
>  If the DDR diminishes Jerry's extraordinarily hostile,
>  uncivil, irrational posts then I think it might have
>  great promise with other organisms including dogs.
>  Even if Jerry were faking being extraordinarily kind,
>  civil, and rational, for August and October, that would
>  be an improvement.
>  --Marshall

Here's professor SCRUFF SHAKE:

From: Marshall Dermer (dermer at
Subject: Re: new puppy bitting/chewing hands
Date: 1999/07/05

In article
<976F54CA8C2C77AB.9DF245927D0DAB8B.90BA464FE454EF7F at> Jason
<aslan7 at> writes:
> I would assume that all puppies like to bite and chew
> on just about anything.  How do you train a young
> puppy NOT to chew on hands and feet?  Although
> there is a time and place for saying 'no' and giving
> the dog a scruff shake I do no know if this is appropriate
> at this age.

 At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral
function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy
by its neck and shake it a bit,  and the frequency
of the biting decreases then you will have achieved
 too things.

First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has
decreased; and two, you have established "No"
as a conditioned punisher.

 How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted biting.

 When our dog was a puppy,  "No" came before
mild forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's
mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad
Dog" came  before stronger punishement (the
kind discussed above).

 My dog is about 1.5 years old. "No" is usually
sufficient but sometimes I  use "Bad Dog" to
stop a behavior.

"Bad Dog" ALWAYS works.

 then, of course, quickly say "Good Dog" when
 he is appropriately behaving.

 In providing verbal punishment and reinforcement
as in using nonverbal punishement and reinforcement,
timing is very important.

Use these consquences to control behavior much
 as in the game where a child is told "your getting hot"
or "your getting cold." If the delay between the behavior
 and the consquence is too long then the behavior will
not appropriately change.


 From: Marshall Dermer (dermer at
Subject: Re: Update on Puppy Biting
Date: 1999/06/14

In article <37675817.19034849 at> clayn at
> My previous thread seems to have deteriorated
> off topic, but I would still like some input on
> biting and aggressive behavior. To recount I
> have a Chow/Lab mix who is now 9 weeks old.
> The biggest problem I had with him is biting.
> This could have been when petting him, walking
> by, or when playing. This seems to be his way of
> playing or getting attention, but it can drive me nuts.
> To stop this I've distracted with chew toys,

Distraction can be a BIG mistake! Why? Because if
your manipulation of the chew toy is reinforcing then
you are inadvertently reinforcing your dog for biting if
you follow his biting with activating the chew toy.

The standard way to curtail biting is to either "yelp
loudly," "clamp the dog's mouth shut with your hand,"
or "pick him up by the scruff of his neck" and say "no"
whenever he bites.

All of these are punishment procedures and
to work they must be put into place promptly,
within say .5 sec, after the bite.

Isolating the dog after a bite is another form
of punishment called time-out (from reinforcement
but it is hard to rapidly implement--within .5
sec of a bite.

If one of these procedures does not work, that is,
your dog behaves as if it were a game, then you
are not using an effective punisher/procedure.

> I said NO, and failing that put him in my room
> alone for a few min. When in there he barks
> and whines, but afterwards behaves much better.

> After about a week of this the biting has decreased
> remarkably, but hasn't stopped outright. Still does it
> when he gets into hyper Puppy Jihad mode.

 Well, be patient.

 You can, of course, use differential reinforcement
of other behavior to eliminate biting. If there is a
situation in which your dog often bites. then create
 the situation and if your dog goes without biting for
 1 sec. offer a reinforcer (click and treat if you use
 a clicker).

Then gradually increase the time that your dog
must go without biting for the reinforcer to be
delivered. Eventually, your dog will not bite and
the other behaviors that you have been reinforcing
will be more frequent.

 Another factor to consider is whether your dog
is getting sufficient exercise. Mine will go "bonkers"
if he has been exercise deprived.

 Best wishes,


    I have listed below, in rank order, ( 1 = "The Best") my favorite

1.  Overall, K. L. (1997). _Clinical behavioral medicine for small
       animals._ St.Louis: Mosby

    Professor Overall has earned many degrees (MS, VMD, PhD) and is
    certified by the Animal Behavior Society as an Applied Animal

2.  Diane Blackman's Fun with Your Dog:

    Diane has compiled "tons" of information about dogs. This work in
    progress reveals Diane's tremendous love and respect for dogs.

3. Prof.Mark Plonsky's Fabulous Site:

    Mark's site has won numerous awards. It is VERY complete.

4. Frequently Asked Questions

    Cindy Tittle Moore has written the "classic" Usenet source for
    information about pets.

5. Karen Pryor's Web Site:

   Discover clicker training and training resources. Clicker training is a
   positive approach!

   Also check out this URL for more on clicker training:

6. Gary Wilkes's Click & Treat Web Site:

   Much excellent training information.

7. Wisconsin Public Radio's "Calling All Pets":

   Find out when and where this excellent program is broadcast.

8. Denver Dumb Friends League:

    Many helpful essays about pet ownership, care, and training.

9. Dog Training Keepers

   Helix Fairweather compiles an extensive collection of valuable
   links that keeps on growing.

10. Dog Owner's Guide

   Nature's Recipe presents over 200 articles related to nearly
   every aspect of dog care, training, and ownership.

11. Buying and Raising a Puppy

    _Good Dog Magazine_ helps you start off and, perhaps, subscribe.

12. Maltese Only

    Jay and Bev Bianco's automated site presents loads of information
    about Maltese. I like this site because my dog is long-haired
    and the site offers many grooming tips.

          > > > Jerome Bigge writes:
          > > > I do know that hitting, hurting
          > > > your dog will often make the
          > > > dog either aggressive or a fear
          > > > biter, neither of which we want to do.

And then we got, matty! Follow his discussion!
This is what's called, a liar and dog abuser:

          > > And neither does anyone else,
          > > Jerome.  No matter
          > > what Jerry Howe states.

"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This I've Suggested It To Quite
A Few Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY
TIME The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer,
33 Years Experience.

You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for her coment above
regarding her success with The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy
Separation Anxiety / Bed Time Calming Technique (STSA/BTCT)?

Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z, who commented
that his bed time calming technique was quite similar?

          > > You're scary Marilyn.

          > > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed
          > > individual.  I feel very sorry for her
          > > and her family.

"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.

          > > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
          > > doubt, please provide a quote (an
          > > original quote, not from one of Jerry
          > > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
          > > shows a regular poster promoting or
          > > using an abusive form of training.


          > > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.


"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know
Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo
Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN
SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And  Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few  Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."

You think HURTIN dogs and CRINGING

"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What  does this mean?"

Means the author is a dog abuser of the worst magnitude.

"When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time, spray one squirt
directly into the dog's mouth and walk away. The dog won't be too thrilled
with this but just ignore him and continue your normal behavior."

You think HURTING your dog is NORMAL BEHAVIOR?

  --Mike Dufort
    author of the zero selling book
    "Courteous Canines"

You think HOWER pal mikey is playin with a full deck?

Yeah. When I preload my dog's mouth with bitter apple,
suppose I don't get used to being stupid and cruel, mikey?

Then HOWE do I train my dog if I can't HURT it?

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed
Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side, Leaned On Her,
Smartly Growled Into Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her
Ear," sionnach.

Oh, THANKS, sinofabitch...

  And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
  "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
  something you twisted out of context,
  because you are full of bizarro manure."

           "Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a
           helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.
           Tougher, less tractable dogs may require
           you to progress to striking them more
           sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder,
           expert trainer.

You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT

        "Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
        Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
        With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
        discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies HURT all
their lives like HOWE HOWER dog lovers PREFER to

"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."

The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...

             terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
            "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
            things is something you twisted out of
            context, because you are full of bizarro

Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should knee the dog in the chest, step
on its toes, throw him down by his ears and climb all over it like a raped
ape growling into his throat and bite IT on his ears, or leash pop it on a
pronged spiked pinch choke collar or pop him in the snout with the heel of
your palm.

"BethF" <dawg at> wrote in message
news:ugc7us32ki5fb9 at
> "Frank" <flmarcher at> wrote in message
> news:d2f1624e.0206101912.2980eb03 at
> > dfrntdrums at aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah) wrote in message
news:<20020610173326.01953.00000597 at>...
> > > >"brianev" brianev at wrote:
> > > > I ENJOYED reading your book, and
> > > > AGREED with what you had to say.
> > > > I find it sick to hear what people
> > > > do with their dogs.
> > > Keep in mind that everything he says that
> > > the regular posters of this ng do to their
> > > dogs are lies.
> > > All of it.  Every last bit.
> > All of it?
> > Ear pinching?
> > Shock collars?
> > Spiked chokers?
> > The regulars lie more in their denials than
> > Howe does in his accusing of them.
> Uh, Frank?  Who do you see denying anything?
> Its quite interesting that a newbie like yourself
> would see denials when everyone has Jerry
> killfiled and therefore don't even read his posts,
> let alone respond to them.

"Rocky" <2dogs at> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca at

          > Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

          > > When you compare using sound and
          > > praise to solve a problem with using
          > > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
          > >  how can you criticize the use of sound?

          > There's nothing more to be said, then.
          > You've made up your mind.

          > But you've impressed me by mentioning
          > that you're a professor with 30 years of
          > experience.

          >  So, can you cite some examples of
          > people recommending "shock collars,
          > hanging, and punishment"?


          > --
          > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

You think matty's playin with a full
goddamned deck?

matty's NOT a liar and dog abuser.

Isn't that true, Marilyn?

Of course not, but THIS IS:

"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
 professora gingold.

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer at> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1 at

          > >Di,

          > I don't believe you mentioned a particular
          > kind of training. If you are interested in
          > training retrieval behavior than do
          > consider our own Amy Dahl's:

          > The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a
          > Well-Mannered,  Obedient and
          > Enthusiastic Gun Dog in 10 Minutes a
          > Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl

You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"

           "I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A
           Dog I Do Not Believe There Is A Single
           Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A
           Dog Is Anything But Destructive,"

LUCKY thing CHIN CHUCK absolutely don't
mean slap the goddamned dog, we'd look like
a conspiracy of LIARS and DOG abusers if
CHIN CHUCK DID mean SLAP the dog.

"I don't see why anyone would want to choke or
beat a dog, or how any trainer could possibly get
a good working dog by making them unhapper,
fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying frosty dahl.


          > just $17.95 at

          > (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
          > few regulars here who are either ill-
          > tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
          > --Marshall

Or HOWE about HOWER just plain CRUEL
professor SCRUFF SHAKE?

amy lying frosty dahl continues:

           "On the other extreme, the really hard dogs
           we have trained require much more
           frequent and heavy application of pressure
          (PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,

          This is continued resistance to your
          increasing authority, and the job is
          not done until it is  overcome

          Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper
          wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher,
          less tractable dogs may require you to
          progress to striking them more sharply"


         "Try pinching the ear between the metal
         casing and the collar,  even the buckle on
         the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will
        give in but will squeal, thrash around, and
        direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch"


           "You can press the dog's ear with a
           shotshell instead of your thumb even
           get a studded collar and pinch the ear
          against that Make the dog's need to stop
          the pinching so urgent that resisting your
          will fades in importance.

           CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever
           Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try
           using the stick and no ear pinch.

          When the dog is digging out to beat the
          stick and seems totally reliable without
          any ear pinch, you are finished

           This is continued resistance to your
           increasing authority, and the job is
           not done until it is overcome"

          If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly
          under the chin, say "No! Hold!"

           (stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps
           because the ear is getting tender, or the
           dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying
           frosty dahl.

           "Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
            professora gingold.

From: Marshall Dermer (dermer at
In article <38CC0C43.94E2DDD1 at>
rhurwitz at writes:

          >> -snip headers etc.

          >> Yes. you're right, I really should find
          >> the book.. they don't have these books
          >> in the local pet stores I frequent, where
          >> do you find Koehler?

          > I got a nice large print copy from


            Please try Powell's Books in Portland
            Oregon. Their URL is:


            Unlike, Powell's keeps both
            new and used books on its shelves. You
            can order books via e-email.

                               Koehler Method Of Dog
                               by Koehler, W R
                               Published by HOWELL BOOK
                               HOUSE (0876056575,


Here's some quotes and some methods right
outta your koehler book professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and scream "NO!" into its
face for 5

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962).  New York:
           Howell Book Book House(p. 52-53)."


"First, the trainer makes certain that the collar
and leash are more than adequate for any jerk
or strain that the dog's most frantic actions could cause.  Then he starts
to work the dog deliberately and fairly to the point where the dog makes his

Before the teeth have reached their target,
the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
the ground.

As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned problems the dog is suspended
in mid-air.

           However, to let the biting dog recover
           his footing while he still had the strength
           to renew the attack would be cruelty.

          The only justifiable course is to hold him
          suspended until he has neither the strength
          nor inclination to renew the fight.

          When finally it is obvious that he is
          physically incapable of expressing his
          resentment and is lowered to the ground,
         he will probably stagger loop-legged for a
         few steps, vomit once or twice, and roll
         over on his side.

         The sight of a dog lying, thick-tongued,
         on his side, is not pleasant, but do not
         let it alarm you

           THE REAL "HOOD"

           "If your dog is a real "hood" who would
           regard the foregoing types of protest as
          "kid stuff" and would express his
          resentment of your efforts by biting,
          your problem is difficult -- and pressing.

           "Professional trainers often get these
           extreme problems. Nearly always the
           "protest biter" is the handiwork of a
           person who, by avoiding situations that
           the dog might resent, has nurtured the
           seeds of rebellion and then  cultivated
          the resultant growth with under correction.

           When these people reap their inevitable
           and oftentimes painful harvest, they are
           ready to avail themselves of "the cruel
           trainer" whose advice they may have
           once rejected because it was incompatible
           with the sugary droolings of mealy-
          mouthed columnists, breed-ring biddies,
          and dog psychologists who, by the
          broken skins and broken hearts their
         misinformation causes, can be proven guilty
         of the greatest act of cruelty to animals
         since the dawn of time.

         "With more genuine compassion for the
         biting dog than would ever be demonstrated
         by those who are "too kind" to make a
         correction and certainly with more disregard
         for his safety, the professional trainer
         morally feels obligated to perform a "major

          "Since we are presently concerned with
          the dog that bites in resentment of the
          demands of training, we will set our
          example in that situation.  (In a later
          chapter we will deal with the with the
          much easier problem of the dog that
          bites someone other than his master."

Are we havin FUN yet?

Got a lite, professor SCRUFF SHAKE?

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