IUBio Biosequences .. Software .. Molbio soft .. Network News .. FTP


KP_PC k.p.collins at worldnet.att.net
Fri Nov 14 14:47:27 EST 2003

"Wolf Kirchmeir" <wwolfkir at sympatico.can> wrote in message
news:jbysxveflzcngvpbpna.hockjw1.pminews at news1.sympatico.ca...
| On 13 Nov 2003 12:04:49 -0800, pavan03 wrote:
| >Why is there SOO much reluctance to think of the existence of
| >consciousness as a substance?
| "Existence ... [is] a substance"? That's nonsense. I'll assume that
| actually meant "consciousness [is] a substance."
| If consciousness is a substance, it must have the properties of a
substance -
| it must occupy space, have mass, acquire and lose momentum, etc.
| Even pavan03 should be able to see that this is silly.

Hi Wolf.

Consciousness [and everything else that occurs within
nervous systems] does, of course, occupy space, has
mass, acquires and loses momentum, etc., and every-
thing that happens within nervous systems does have
a quality that is actualized in a way that's analogous
to the stuff that pavan03 has discussed. My read is
that his posts were sincere, but just 'fell-short' because
he isn't 'familiar' with the necessary Physics.

His position is that "consciousness" is 'pre-packaged'
stuff that comes into, and 'animates' nervous systems
in accord with it's intrinsic qualities.

If pavan03 had access to the necessary Physics, perhaps
he would have been able to demonstrate that physical
reality does act in a way that's analogous to the stuff
he discussed.

That is, the overall order inherent in the Universal energy-
dynamics =is= what comes-into nervous systems in a
'pre-packaged' way, thereby 'animating' their functionalities.

It's easy to see that this is what happens in the nervous
system of a Physicist when the Physicist studies physical
reality, and Learns about its functioning.

The 'pre-packaged'-ness of physical reality is what drives
the Physicist's nervous system's energydynamics.

And this is quite-close to what pavan03 was getting-at.

It's just that he had to leave some 'black boxes' in his

Physical reality =does= 'address' Consciousness, and
it does do so in a way that has 'pre-packaged' Super-
Order inherent in-it.

Although my read is that pavan03 was invoking
'something beyond' physical reality, I think that's what
pavan03 was working to make clear.

Of course, in his discussion, there are other factors that
pavan03 did not try to explain, and which I cannot even
address, other than by pointing them out - that physical
reality, itself, according to pavan03, exhibits a =knowing=
action, =variably=, within nervous systems. This is close
to the Mystical Qualities that Believers attribute to God,
and is. of course, something that Science does not

The Problem is that there have been many instances
of Science's Denial of this or that with respect to which,
as experimentally-derived evidence accumulates,
Science has had to 'recant' its former Denial. And,
when one studies the behavioral dynamics inherent
in such 'recantations',one does see that they do
occur in close accord with the position that pavan03
has worked to express - when one looks, one sees
that, yes, physical reality does, in fact, assert itself
within Physicists' nervous systems in a 'pre-packaged'
way, actualizing itself within Physicists' Conscious-

Which is all very-Spectacularly-Wonderous - and
'wonder'-provoking - Joyous, really.

It's good to see all of this that's right-there to see.

The big-questions that pavan03 left unaddressed are,
is physical reality =selective= with respect to what
information-processing dynamics occur within this
or that nervous system? And, if it were so, given phys-
ical realitty's Super-Order, how could that happen in
a way that, nevertheless, preserves that Super-Order
within nervous systems, which are, according to all
available experimental evidence, completely-integrated
within that Super-Order? [Beyond this, there is, of course,
a lot of observational evidence, from first-person testimony,
with respect to Miraculous events. Science tends to
Deny the validity of such first-person testimony, 'typically'
attributing all of it to individual 'quirkiness', or 'ignorance',
or 'pathology', etc., which, all tends to be a 'weak-kneed'
way of 'addressing' the questions inherent - argument via
resort to a 'means' that Science would not tolerate within
its own endeavors.]

One can hypothesize how such 'selective' action could
happen within physical reality, but to test one's hypothes-
es with respect to such, one would have to be everywhere
within the Universe while remaining separate from-it's
Super-Order, yet still functioning in accord with its Super-
Order, and how does one go about accomplishing such? :-]

Nevertheless, these things do matter greatly be-cause
folks've been Killing one another, as is Sorrowfully-evident
even in our own 'modern-time', for individually-unique
'inclinations' with respect to the stuff that pavan03 has

One would think that, be-cause of all of this Sorrowfully-
evident stuff, Humanity would find within its collective-
'heart', the Will to come-together to establish 'ground
rules', shared across Humanity, with respect to
Honoring Free Will with respect to this stuff that has
Ravaged, and still is Ravaging, all of Humanity.

[Honoring Free Will is not a carte-blanche with respect
to behavioral Choice, BTW. It entails drawing one's self
up to the 'level' of Freedom that simultaneously embraces
the same Freedom with respect to all others. Thus, Hon-
oring Free Will requires one to not impose force upon
another, which, of course, includes not taking anything
from another, such as the other's possessions, or the
other's Life.]

Anyway, Consciousness does have all of the physical
properties of a substance. It's just that it is actualized
as a high-'level' conglomeration of the physical prop-
erties of lower-'level' substances.

And physical reality does, in fact, come-into nervous
systems to actualize itself within them.

[For those who have it, see "biological mass" and "be-
haviroal inertia", in AoK, in particular, Ap5, but through-
out the text. I've also discussed all of this in long-former
posts in bionet.neuroscience.

"Biological mass", as it occurs within nervous systems,
is exactly analogous to "mass" as it's commonly ad-
dressed in Physics, except that, in its information-
processing dynamics, and as far as the nervous system's
information-processing capabilities are concerned, the
nervous system 'creates' it. [Of course nervous systems
do not create the fundamental building blocks out of
which "biological mass" is 'created' - energy and energy
'trapped' within SSW<->UES harmonics.]

This sub-topic is exceedingly-rich, and hugely-developed
within NDT.]

Note: go ahead and reply if anyone is so inclined, but I'm
giving up my internet account, so I won't be able to partici-

Cheers, Wolf,

K. P. Colins

More information about the Neur-sci mailing list

Send comments to us at biosci-help [At] net.bio.net