What if the nervous system is nothing more than an electrical supply
for the body? The way the heart provides the necessary blood for the
body to function, the brain provides the necessary electricity for the
muscles in the body to contract, etc.?
In this Information Age, we like to attribute electricity with
these incredible abilities, like representing information, etc. If we
analyze a computer, the circuitry is designed in such a way that
certain sequences of on and off wires trigger the functioning of
certain parts of the computer
1)There is someone who designed such a computer. If people are really
able to think that way about the human brain, they'd credit the
designer and not flesh with the ability to know.
2)There's no knowledge inside a computer! There's nothing aware, no
consciousness produced. Why take the analogy of "information
processing" to the brain, then because we're not able to explain
consciousness, simply say "oh, the brain must be producing it".
3)The computer is deterministic, it simply functions according to a
set of instructions, yet humans have an ability to choose their
destiny (if you want to argue that free will is an illusion, then
there is something that is affected by an illusion, again, not a
property of matter/energy)
What KP_PC and many other folks do, is try and reduce everything that
possibly exists to physical phenomena, a concept known as physicalism.
All those processes, all those physical phenomena do occur, no doubt,
however it's important to distinguish the body (everything that's
physically there), from the soul(what you are, what persists
throughout life, though the body might continuously be changing, the
thing that is conscious, both comprised of consciousness and conscious
of the world around it & itself.)
Again, they seem to be putting "magical" properties onto the nervous
system. All that's there is just electricity. If you're not going to
look at electrical patterns in the world around us and say it's
consciousness/thinking/whatever other inexplicable phenomena, why say
the brain does that?
"KP_PC" <k.p.collins at worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<jjatb.61568$Ec1.3647040 at bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> "Wolf Kirchmeir" <wwolfkir at sympatico.can> wrote in message
> news:jbysxveflzcngvpbpna.hockjw1.pminews at news1.sympatico.ca...> | On 13 Nov 2003 12:04:49 -0800, pavan03 wrote:
> | >Why is there SOO much reluctance to think of the existence of
> | >consciousness as a substance?
> | "Existence ... [is] a substance"? That's nonsense. I'll assume that
> | actually meant "consciousness [is] a substance."
> | If consciousness is a substance, it must have the properties of a
> substance -
> | it must occupy space, have mass, acquire and lose momentum, etc.
> | Even pavan03 should be able to see that this is silly.
>> Hi Wolf.
>> Consciousness [and everything else that occurs within
> nervous systems] does, of course, occupy space, has
> mass, acquires and loses momentum, etc., and every-
> thing that happens within nervous systems does have
> a quality that is actualized in a way that's analogous
> to the stuff that pavan03 has discussed. My read is
> that his posts were sincere, but just 'fell-short' because
> he isn't 'familiar' with the necessary Physics.
>> His position is that "consciousness" is 'pre-packaged'
> stuff that comes into, and 'animates' nervous systems
> in accord with it's intrinsic qualities.
>> If pavan03 had access to the necessary Physics, perhaps
> he would have been able to demonstrate that physical
> reality does act in a way that's analogous to the stuff
> he discussed.
>> That is, the overall order inherent in the Universal energy-
> dynamics =is= what comes-into nervous systems in a
> 'pre-packaged' way, thereby 'animating' their functionalities.
>> It's easy to see that this is what happens in the nervous
> system of a Physicist when the Physicist studies physical
> reality, and Learns about its functioning.
>> The 'pre-packaged'-ness of physical reality is what drives
> the Physicist's nervous system's energydynamics.
>> And this is quite-close to what pavan03 was getting-at.
>> It's just that he had to leave some 'black boxes' in his
>> Physical reality =does= 'address' Consciousness, and
> it does do so in a way that has 'pre-packaged' Super-
> Order inherent in-it.
>> Although my read is that pavan03 was invoking
> 'something beyond' physical reality, I think that's what
> pavan03 was working to make clear.
>> Of course, in his discussion, there are other factors that
> pavan03 did not try to explain, and which I cannot even
> address, other than by pointing them out - that physical
> reality, itself, according to pavan03, exhibits a =knowing=
> action, =variably=, within nervous systems. This is close
> to the Mystical Qualities that Believers attribute to God,
> and is. of course, something that Science does not
>> The Problem is that there have been many instances
> of Science's Denial of this or that with respect to which,
> as experimentally-derived evidence accumulates,
> Science has had to 'recant' its former Denial. And,
> when one studies the behavioral dynamics inherent
> in such 'recantations',one does see that they do
> occur in close accord with the position that pavan03
> has worked to express - when one looks, one sees
> that, yes, physical reality does, in fact, assert itself
> within Physicists' nervous systems in a 'pre-packaged'
> way, actualizing itself within Physicists' Conscious-
>> Which is all very-Spectacularly-Wonderous - and
> 'wonder'-provoking - Joyous, really.
>> It's good to see all of this that's right-there to see.
>> The big-questions that pavan03 left unaddressed are,
> is physical reality =selective= with respect to what
> information-processing dynamics occur within this
> or that nervous system? And, if it were so, given phys-
> ical realitty's Super-Order, how could that happen in
> a way that, nevertheless, preserves that Super-Order
> within nervous systems, which are, according to all
> available experimental evidence, completely-integrated
> within that Super-Order? [Beyond this, there is, of course,
> a lot of observational evidence, from first-person testimony,
> with respect to Miraculous events. Science tends to
> Deny the validity of such first-person testimony, 'typically'
> attributing all of it to individual 'quirkiness', or 'ignorance',
> or 'pathology', etc., which, all tends to be a 'weak-kneed'
> way of 'addressing' the questions inherent - argument via
> resort to a 'means' that Science would not tolerate within
> its own endeavors.]
>> One can hypothesize how such 'selective' action could
> happen within physical reality, but to test one's hypothes-
> es with respect to such, one would have to be everywhere
> within the Universe while remaining separate from-it's
> Super-Order, yet still functioning in accord with its Super-
> Order, and how does one go about accomplishing such? :-]
>> Nevertheless, these things do matter greatly be-cause
> folks've been Killing one another, as is Sorrowfully-evident
> even in our own 'modern-time', for individually-unique
> 'inclinations' with respect to the stuff that pavan03 has
>> One would think that, be-cause of all of this Sorrowfully-
> evident stuff, Humanity would find within its collective-
> 'heart', the Will to come-together to establish 'ground
> rules', shared across Humanity, with respect to
> Honoring Free Will with respect to this stuff that has
> Ravaged, and still is Ravaging, all of Humanity.
>> [Honoring Free Will is not a carte-blanche with respect
> to behavioral Choice, BTW. It entails drawing one's self
> up to the 'level' of Freedom that simultaneously embraces
> the same Freedom with respect to all others. Thus, Hon-
> oring Free Will requires one to not impose force upon
> another, which, of course, includes not taking anything
> from another, such as the other's possessions, or the
> other's Life.]
>> Anyway, Consciousness does have all of the physical
> properties of a substance. It's just that it is actualized
> as a high-'level' conglomeration of the physical prop-
> erties of lower-'level' substances.
>> And physical reality does, in fact, come-into nervous
> systems to actualize itself within them.
>> [For those who have it, see "biological mass" and "be-
> haviroal inertia", in AoK, in particular, Ap5, but through-
> out the text. I've also discussed all of this in long-former
> posts in bionet.neuroscience.
>> "Biological mass", as it occurs within nervous systems,
> is exactly analogous to "mass" as it's commonly ad-
> dressed in Physics, except that, in its information-
> processing dynamics, and as far as the nervous system's
> information-processing capabilities are concerned, the
> nervous system 'creates' it. [Of course nervous systems
> do not create the fundamental building blocks out of
> which "biological mass" is 'created' - energy and energy
> 'trapped' within SSW<->UES harmonics.]
>> This sub-topic is exceedingly-rich, and hugely-developed
> within NDT.]
>> Note: go ahead and reply if anyone is so inclined, but I'm
> giving up my internet account, so I won't be able to partici-
>> Cheers, Wolf,
>> K. P. Colins