A Theory of Neuropeptides?
k p Collins
kpaulc at [----------]earthlink.net
Fri Jan 9 02:38:41 EST 2004
One more, correlated, thing:
If I were to work, from a phamacological perspective,
with respect to 'schizophrenia', I'd determinedly-explore
sleeping-consciousness with the explicit emphasis upon
looking for 'incompleteness' within the sleeping-consci-
ousness experiential-total cross-correlation dynamics
that are discussed below.
This, because the symptomology of 'schizophrenia' is
the very 'picture' of absence, or incompleteness, or
erroneous-'completion', of this experiential-total cross-
It's the one 'thing' to which the symptomology of 'schizophrenia'
is maximally-correlated. [It's a wide-spread, diffuse, all-
permeating TD E/I(up) condition. Ever-present 'randomness',
with respect to which waking-consciousness TD E/I-minimiza-
tion cannot occur 'completely' [because there's just too much
of it that's necessary as a result of the sleeping-consciousness
experiential-total cross-correlation [integration] deficits.]
So I'd investigate this stuff determinedly, and be surprised
if I didn't find a way to assist folks who suffer such sleeping-
consciousness information-processing deficits.
Because sleeping-consciousness is, in fact, extremely-very-
much-more stereotypically occuring than is waking-conscious
information-processing, it's also the case that pharmacological
intervention within sleep-consciousness' information-processing
dynamics is more-likely to have success.
Because of its inherent staged-cycling, sleeping-consciousness
is much-more a 'mechanical' process than is waking-consciousness,
and that makes attempts at pharmacological intervention more
[Note well: I'm =always= 'hesitant' to give folks who pursue
pharmacological intervention any assistance - because they've
'just' not known what they've been doing, but I decided to
share these insights because they provide an opportunity
that just doesn't exist with respect to pharmacological inter-
vention within waking-consciousness information-processing
dynamics. But =do not= ab-use the stuff I've discussed here.
=Do not= put 'profits' before the welfares of folks who are
Suffering. Long and careful study, that holds folks who Suffer
in it's 'heart', is necessary if what's discussed here is to bear
fruit. Do not Transgress by seeking 'easy profits'. What's
here is here because I'm putting it here, so I've Responsibility
with respect to it. I'll expose any who ab-use it.]
K. P. Collins
"k p Collins" <kpaulc@[----------]earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:PbsLb.17703$6B.15526 at newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> One [or more - I've started this reply to do one thing,
> but might find something else that can use a 'tweak]
> CLARIFICATION[s] added below.
> "k p Collins" <kpaulc@[----------]earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:WM9Lb.16114$6B.5669 at newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > Hi Dag,
> > "Dag Stenberg" <dag.stenberg at nospam.helsinki.fi.invalid> wrote in
> > news:bth7nq$bjm$1 at oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> > > k p Collins <kpaulc@[----------]earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > > "yan king yin" <y.k.y at lycos.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:72de81ae.0401060226.67da0596 at posting.google.com...
> > > >> Neuropeptides (when they're located at the pre-synapse) are usually
> > > >> secreted after intense stimulation such as tetanic trains. ...
> > > >
> > > > There's an easy first-test with respect to this question - assay
> > > > peptide concentrations before and after episodes of sleeping
> > > > consciousness [because, if your hypothesis is valid, then the
> > > > 'catching-up' would be most-easily handled during sleeping-
> > > > consciousness. And, since it's easy to look at before-and-
> > > > after-sleep peptide concentrations [well, relatively-easy, all
> > > > things considered], checking that out would be a good first
> > > > 'step' to take with respect to your hypothesis.
> > >
> > > Ken, do you mean "sleep" by "sleeping consciousness"? Or do you mean
> > > "REM sleep"? Or do you mean "across the sleep-wake cycle"?
> > I was refering to looking for a difference before and after =any= sleep.
> > And I was discussing with specific respect to the possibility that,
> > if peptides play a role in "information overload", then it's probable
> > that that would constitute a sort of 'workload queing' with respect
> > to processing that occurs during sleep - that the "information
> > somehow 'represented' in the formation of a 'peptide-response' to
> > "information overload", would actually get sorted-out during sleep.
> > As I've discussed in the past, it's my position that a lot of this sort
> > of thing does happen during sleep - with respect to "experiential total"
> > cross-correlation, which is absolutely-necessary with respect to
> > maintaining 'normal', unified waking-consciousness - simply be-
> > cause, during waking-consciousness, one's neural activation is
> > necessarily [more or less] specifically-correlated to one's then-
> > occurring experience, but cross-experiential-total cross-correlation
> > of each 'day's new experience is =absolutely-necessary= if a
> > unified consciousness is, in fact, to be maintained.
> > As a Programmer, it's easy for me to see that the sleep cycle's
> > variable-duration "staging" constitutes a mechanism that is perfectly-
> > suited to 'walking' one's experiential-total [the totality of one's
> > 'memory'] and cross-correlating ['consolidating'] the day's ex-
> > perience with respect to all of one's experience.
> > I think this is why sleep is necessary, and is why we do, in fact,
> > sleep.
> > It's be-cause we cannot keep everything we've ever experienced
> > in-mind during waking-consciousness. That would be so 'distracting'
> > that it would be anti-survival.
> > But it's absolutely necessary that the experiential-total
> > occur.
> It's because this whole-experiential-total cross-correlation, that can
> only occur during the special "supersystem configuration" [AoK, Ap5]
> that is "sleeping-consciosness", does, in fact, occur during sleeping-
> consciousness, that the whole of one's experiential total is, in fact,
> more or less [see below] 'present' 'within' ['underneath'] this or that
> 'momentary' waking-consciousness information-processing.
> [The "more or less" qualifier is necessary because these dynamics
> occur as a function of the 'level' at which the "volitional diminishing-
> returns decision" threshold [AoK, Ap7] is 'set'. That is, one can
> volitionally 'choose' the degree of experiential-total cross-correlation
> that one wishes to achieve. Hence, the "more or less", in the paragraph
> above. In many ways, the 'passion' that's evident in the way I endeavor
> to communicate NDT's understanding derives in seeing how much of
> the harm that folks experience derives in folks' "volitional diminishing
> returns decision" thresholds being 'set too low' - which results in
> surately-less of this experiential total cross-correlation. When I 'jump
> up and down', it's usually the case that I'm working to give folks'
> "diminishing returns decision" thresholds a little 'lifting-up' - which,
> those who grasp the 'moment', is a 'Gift' of being able to Think more-
> deeply. I Love folks in that way. But folks are Free to Choose with
> respect to such. It's be-cause I've been aware of all of this all along
> that I, long ago, called myself to task with respect to the Necessity
> of Guarding Free WIll. I do. It's not 'manipulation', because folks
> are Free to Choose. For those who do so Choose, it's about the
> best Gift that can be received. It literally is a Gift of being able to
> 'move toward' Truth - to See Truth, ever-more-clearly. I Love folks
> in that way. Learned such from Jesus.]
> > So, we sleep, and the very-active 'states' of sleeping-consciousness,
> > with their periodic cycling, in which cycles grow shorter as the
> > overall sleep 'cycle' procedes, is flat-out a 'picture' of computerized
> > database "reorganizations" [that, BTW, occur for the very 'same' reason,
> > only with respect to shortening data pointer chains that have grown
> > overly-long, or [through multiple deletions, restores, modifications,
> > overly-convoluted, which can greatly impact database performance.
> > The computer 'consolidation' ["reorganization"] process occurs in a
> > non-information-content-relevant way that's analogous to the informa-
> > tion-content relevant way that whole-experiential-total 'consolidation'
> > occurs within nervous systems during sleep.
> One does a crude version of this stuff whenever one "defragments" the
> hard disk on one's computer. [I always do defrags in a stand-alone way
> [while not, otherwise, using my computer], because I like to think about
> what my computer is doing in this 'sleep state' :-]
> BTW, any 'AI' system =must= have an analogue of "sleep" - for the
> reasons discussed above. Doing it 'in the background' unacceptably
> degrades 'foreground' processing in a real-AI thing. [Forground
> processing =must= grasp as much as the 3-D energydynamics that
> are occurring in it's experiential environment as is possible - if it is,
> in fact, to approach real-AI. I wish Microsoft[tm] would learn this, and
> not ab-use 'foreground' processing by imposing so much 'background'
> processing upon it in their 'OS' engineering. Where they see 'unused
> clock cycles', I see only the information-processing capabilities of my
> PC, and I want to use them for what I want to do, not what someone
> else wants to do with them. Windows XP[tm] is 'background' processing
> run amok.]
> That's all for this clarification.
> k. p. collins
> > It was out of my awareness of these sleeping-consciousness whole-
> > experiential-total 'consolidation' dynamics that I suggested that the
> > poster look for a sleep-correlated differential.
> > More below.
> > >
> > > Anyway, there are publications since 1909 attempting to assay protein
> > > peptide concentrations after prolonged waking in comparison with the
> > > well-slept state, or differences between sleep and waking. Of course,
> > > 1909 they could not identify the peptides, but they found that a
> > > protein-based substance accumulated in the brains of sleep-deprived
> > > animals would induce sleep when infused into the cerebroventricular
> > > system of other animals. About 1975, the accumulation of muramyl
> > > during prolonged waking was observed. It was later found to relate to
> > > and cause the production of interleukin-1 during waking, and indeed it
> > > has been found that prolonged waking induces the transcription by
> > > the interleukine-1 gene.
> > > Several other genes are transcribed more intensely during waking
> > > during sleep. It follows that their gene products (proteins eventually
> > > broken down to peptides, which may be directly involved in
> > > more indirectly, by affecting the regulation of cellular functions)
> > also
> > > vary with the sleep-wake state. Most of these genes are immediate
> > genes
> > > or gene products related to synaptic plasticity or cellular
> > > very few genes are transcribed more during sleep.
> > >
> > > Thoughts about peptides related to sleep homeostasis can be divided
> > > the depletion hypotheses and the accumulation hypotheses. Does waking
> > > activity deplete something useful and necessary, or does it
> > something
> > > harmful (the hypnotoxin theory)?
> > >
> > > If levels of a peptide increases during wakefulness, it might mean
> > its use
> > > is diminished, or alternatively, that its production is increased.
> > > latter may be due to increased gene transctiption, and may be a
> > > compensatory phenomenon because of increased use. If a peptide
> > > decreases during wakefulness, it might mean that it is used more and
> > > is being depleted, or that its production has simply become decreased.
> > > If one samples the level during a longer period of wakefulness, one
> > > see initial depletion followed by compensatorily increased production.
> > > single time point may produce misleading results. Furthermore, study
> > > during spontaneously oscillating sleep-wake cycles may not reveal the
> > > true dependence on wake and sleep, as there may be a delay between the
> > > change in state and the concentration changes. If the delay is due to
> > > changes secretion from stores in the presynaptic terminal, these
> > > concentration changes are seen with short delay; if the change
> > > gene transcription, the change occurs with a delay of hours to days,
> > > cannot be analyzed by studying spontaneous sleep-wake patterns (with a
> > > cycle of 24h in humans and even less than an hour in most other
> > vertebrates.
> > Thank you for this Generous sharing of your Expertise, Dag.
> > > So when Ken writes "There's an easy first-test with respect to this
> > > question" it is not all that easy. In fact, a great deal of peptide
> > > assay has been done during the last few decades in relation to sleep
> > > wake, and there is still no easy answer.
> > I'm sorry, but my personal experience leads me to [gently] disagree.
> > Because I'm always hard-pressed to feed and shelter myself [for
> > when I have the $ resources to work on my research, I do so by working
> > for as long as I can - to cram as much into the ol' noggin' lab as I can
> > fore allowing myself to sleep.
> > As a result, my sleep cycle gradually rotates 'around the clock'.
> > As you can imagine, because I've been at this for so long, I've become
> > aware that there are several 'sub-processes' within
> > They are recognizable because they go in and out of sync,
> > as I allow my sleep cycle to rotate 'around the clock'.
> > So I can say, with Certainty, that if you find a subject who will endure
> > an analogous waking-sleeping discipline, you'll see periodic
> > that correlate to these sleep sub-processes - and because they sort of
> > 'slide-over' one another [they each 'go their own way'], the
> > will be 'easy' to identify in pharmocological assays. [Whoops! I =don't=
> > know if such studies can be done in Humans - probably not, eh? Or do
> > the substances you monitor occur, say, in bodily fluids? It's
> > if your work is invasive. That would mean that you'd have to force the
> > 'around the clock' sleep cycle rotation upon animal subjects - which
> > duces a variable that is not within my experience, because I do this
> > volitionally - in order to =relieve= the 'stress' with respect to
> > questions.
> > You know - "information overload" :-]
> > All that I've discussed was in why I responded to the prior post.
> > I wanted to get into this discussion with someone.
> > So, Thank You, Dag.
> > I'll save your informative post special, so I can have ready access
> > to it when I get back to reading in Neuroscience [if I ever will].
> > I'll come over there and let your team 'wire me up' if you want to see
> > sleep-sub-process cycling that I've discussed.
> > I'm so used to it that I usually don't even pay any attention to it,
> > than knowing, from it, when it's best to go to bed [when I should go
> > to bed in order to get the best-sleep that's possible].
> > [I've also done a lot of 'experiments' with respect to
> > and my many diferent sleep-cycle routines. "Never waste data!" is a
> > that I Live by :-]
> > Cheers, Dag,
> > ken [k. p. collins]
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