[Neuroscience] Re: Dendritic spine and Synaptic bouton content

r norman via neur-sci%40net.bio.net (by r_s_norman from _comcast.net)
Wed Feb 21 21:35:42 EST 2007

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:03:33 GMT, "Benjamin" <Benjamin from verizon.net>

>"r norman" <r_s_norman from _comcast.net> wrote in message 
>news:q8pot2tmjcshdgfpgn4lsol5fjfimfkbec from 4ax.com...
>> On 21 Feb 2007 03:22:14 -0800, Cervellone from gmail.com wrote:
>>>I think i will overuse all your mighty brains for a little while
>>>longer :-)
>>>After reviding my opinion on synapses and dendrites as static shells i
>>>wanted to know whether there are mitochondria in both, synapses and
>>>Dendrites. In fact they'd better be with all the atp dependent
>>>processes but how do they get there? It should be difficult to attach
>>>a Mitochondrion to anterograde transport and squeeze it through the
>> Presynaptic terminals indeed contain mitochondria.  A paper describing
>> their significance is  "Synaptic mitochondria are critical for
>> mobilization of reserve pool vesicles at Drosophila neuromuscular
>> junctions." by P Verstreken et al. (Neuron. 2005 Aug 4;47(3):365-78)
>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16055061&dopt=Citation
>> Google "synaptic mitochondria for more"
>> As to dendrites, there can be mitochondria there, too.  See "The
>> importance of dendritic mitochondria in the morphogenesis and
>> plasticity of spines and synapses" by Z Li et al. (Cell 2004, vol.
>> 119, no6, pp. 873-887)
>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15607982&dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn
>> As to how the mitochondria get where they are supposed to go, look at
>> "Nerve Cells' Power Plants Caught In A Traffic Jam "
>> http://www.physorg.com/news5610.html
>Hi, Dr. Norman,
>Good stuff.
>My first thought: "It's the 3-D-E" :-]
>There are several errors in the press
>For instance, calcium is not "the main
>ingredient for proper neuron function."
>All of neurons is of equal importance.
>Everything's in-there be-cause it's
>needed in-there.
>Statements like this or that "is the main
>thing" cannot be substantiated.
>Yes, calcium is necessary, so is po-
>tassium, so is sodium, so is chlorine,
>so are functional ribosomes, so are a
>g'zillion proteins, etc.
>One 'thing' does organize everything
>else, but it's continuous from the small-
>est-scale to the largest, so it can't be
>"parsed" into anything like what the
>press release says.
>It's the 3-D-E.
>The [quoting from the press release]
>"dMiro" protein ["stands for Drosophila
>mitochondrial Rho-like GTPase"] is more
>like an 'antenna' than a "motor" thing.
>It's obviously correlated to "detecting"
>3-D-E directionalities.
>It's the 3-D-E that actually does the
>Directing -- else mitochondria mo-
>tion cannot possibly be correlated
>with the necessary microscopic
>trophic modifications to nerve cells'
>structures -- so "learning" can't, then,
>be coupled to the activation that act-
>ually occurs 'within' the neuron.
>Which is =everything= that "learning"
>I'm not saying the stuff reported isn't
>interesting. It is.
>It's 'just' that the 'same' kind of effect
>can be generated in literally a g'zillion
>ways -- basically, anything that alters
>'normal' mitochondrial structural in-
>tegrity will have analogous [if not ex-
>actly-identical] effects.
>Folks 'have to' learn to see that the
>molecular biology is Directed by the
>3-D-E -- that there're no 'magic bul-
>let-holes' -- that the 3-D-E act every-
>where simultaneously [of course,
>in a way that's local to the relative
>spatial scope under consideration
>['ion', 'atom', molecule, organelle,
>single neuron-glia complex, groups
>of such, etc., all the way up to global
>neural topology and global TD E/I-
>minimization -- the 3-D E are =contin-
>uous= throughout, and are what orders
>=everything= 'within' the Biology [all the
>way down to infinitely-small scale and
>all the way up to as far one cares to
>extend one's sensory perception and
>the "volitional diminishing-returns"
>decision threshold [AoK, Ap7.]
>I =really= enjoyed following the link,
>Dr. Norman.
>Thank you for posting it.
>ken [k. p. collins]

Ken, you know I have some "issues" with your theories.  Still, you are
right about Calcium. That was "press release talk".  Calcium is a very
important regulator of many functions but calling it the "main
ingredient" for function really is a bit excessive.  Similarly, the
role of the particular Drosophila protein is also "press release
talk".  It is always a problem to cite that kind of literature.  I
realize that when I cite the primary literature, it is so technical
that few other than professionals in the field can really follow just
what it is about.  When I cite secondary or "popular" works like that
one, then you end up with careless and overenthusiastic language and,
all too often, oversimplifications.

Incidentally, I might just point out that the abbreviations you use,
like 3-D E and T/D EI minimization have great meaning to you but not
to anyone else not completely familiar with all the details of your
ideas.  You might do better to use brief phrases to describe your
ideas.  I know you would prefer that we all read thoroughly your work
and become familiar with your ideas but you should also realize by now
that such an eventuality is somewhat unlikely, to be brutally frank.

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