From michael from beaverbell.co.uk Thu Aug 6 14:33:02 2009 From: michael from beaverbell.co.uk (Michael Bell) Date: Thu Aug 6 15:42:55 2009 Subject: [Plant-biology] Seeking variations of alder for breeding it as a grain crop Message-ID: <4823b88650.michaelbell@michael.beaverbell.co.uk> 10 Cambridge Avenue Forest Hall Newcastle -upon - Tyne NE12 8AR michael@beaverbell.co.uk 0191 266 6435 I have embarked on a project to develop Alder (Alnus) as a grain crop, as I describe below. In my meaning of the word, a "grain" is a hard dry food-thing with good keeping qualities, no matter what the exact botanical description. If you look at some Alder trees and imagine that each cone was replaced by an ear of wheat of the same size, you can see it would be a good crop. Alders fix nitrogen, they do not need to be resown every year, they do not cast a heavy shade, grass grows beneath them, and animals could be pastured on the land. My original aim was to make profitable use of the uplands of Britain, and Britain cannot feed itself, but I see now that it could also be grown on lower land and elsewhere in the world. So, I am looking for trees, cuttings or seeds, which have the traits I want. I am undecided between Alnus incana and A. glutinosa. Alnus incana grows higher and further north than A. glutinosa, and it is less dependent on water than A. glutinosa, but A. glutinosa is more plentiful. But the two species hybridise so I am interested in both. I foresee that the trees will be grown in rows to form a hedge. The cones will be pulled off using a mechanical comb and threshed in something like a combine harvester. The cones can easily be pulled off many varieties. By timing harvesting correctly it will probably be possible to pull off the cones without losing seeds and then break them open in the harvester. That said, I want the finished breed to have cones which don't open on the tree, which are strong enough not break when pulled off the tree, but are easy to break open in the harvester. Any steps toward that will be welcome. Some alder trees carry no cones (!), others carry huge numbers of catkins and very few cones: the opposite of what I want. Walking many miles and looking at the alders as I passed I have found a few trees which carry vast numbers of cones on special cone-only branches, unlike "normal" alders where the cones are carried on the leaf-carrying branches. I can send a photo off-list. It is near Newcastle airport. It is too early in the season to tell, but the seeds in these cones will probably be the usual wretchedly small size. I want bigger. It was easy to walk past lots of trees and from many yards away see how many cones they were carrying. I can see no such easy way of searching for bigger seeds, and this is where I am asking for help. How can you search for bigger seeds? One possibility is that if a single seed is bigger, the regular pattern of scales will be broken by a bigger seed inside. Is this a workable search method? Another possibility is to sift the seeds after they have been got out of the cones. How easy is it going to be do this by looking for big-uns by spreading the seeds out on white paper? I have built a seed-sifter which uses an air current from a computer cooling fan to sort seeds by size/weight ratio. It shows promise. Have you got some seeds which I could sort through? I can come and do it, I can bring the sifter in my car. Are there any better ideas? To spread my net wide, I would be interested in any tree which has cones which are unusual in any way. I would be very grateful for any help with any part of this. I would be grateful for cuttings (which preserve the gene combination which gave rise to feature of interest) or seeds (especially if they are big) or an invitation to see a tree of interest. The plan is to copy the "Open Source" ideas of Linux and similar computer systems. All those who contribute material will be offered the results of my work. Obviously this is a very big thing, and I would like make use of the knowledge which some of your members surely have. I don't know how you would like to handle this. You may put this letter, in whole or in part, into your own publications. Unfortunately I have to be away at the busiest time for this, 18 Sept - 19 Oct, to attend the wedding of my nephew to a Nepali girl in Kathmandu. It will be a Hindu ceremony, with "heroic eating and drinking", followed by a walk in "the hills" - the Himalayas! Michael Bell -- From bjbliss from gmail.com Thu Aug 6 20:08:55 2009 From: bjbliss from gmail.com (Barbara Bliss) Date: Thu Aug 6 22:50:04 2009 Subject: [Plant-biology] Seeking variations of alder for breeding it as a grain crop In-Reply-To: <4823b88650.michaelbell@michael.beaverbell.co.uk> References: <4823b88650.michaelbell@michael.beaverbell.co.uk> Message-ID: Does Alnus have any food value? How would one prepare it? On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Michael Bell wrote: > 10 Cambridge Avenue > Forest Hall > Newcastle -upon - Tyne > NE12 8AR > michael@beaverbell.co.uk > 0191 266 6435 > > > > I have embarked on a project to develop Alder (Alnus) as a grain crop, > as I describe below. > > In my meaning of the word, a "grain" is a hard dry food-thing with > good keeping qualities, no matter what the exact botanical > description. > > If you look at some Alder trees and imagine that each cone was > replaced by an ear of wheat of the same size, you can see it would be > a good crop. Alders fix nitrogen, they do not need to be resown every > year, they do not cast a heavy shade, grass grows beneath them, and > animals could be pastured on the land. My original aim was to make > profitable use of the uplands of Britain, and Britain cannot feed > itself, but I see now that it could also be grown on lower land and > elsewhere in the world. > > So, I am looking for trees, cuttings or seeds, which have the traits I > want. > > I am undecided between Alnus incana and A. glutinosa. Alnus incana > grows higher and further north than A. glutinosa, and it is less > dependent on water than A. glutinosa, but A. glutinosa is more > plentiful. But the two species hybridise so I am interested in both. > > I foresee that the trees will be grown in rows to form a hedge. The > cones will be pulled off using a mechanical comb and threshed in > something like a combine harvester. The cones can easily be pulled off > many varieties. > > By timing harvesting correctly it will probably be possible to pull > off the cones without losing seeds and then break them open in the > harvester. > > That said, I want the finished breed to have cones which don't open on > the tree, which are strong enough not break when pulled off the tree, > but are easy to break open in the harvester. Any steps toward that > will be welcome. > > Some alder trees carry no cones (!), others carry huge numbers of > catkins and very few cones: the opposite of what I want. Walking many > miles and looking at the alders as I passed I have found a few trees > which carry vast numbers of cones on special cone-only branches, > unlike "normal" alders where the cones are carried on the > leaf-carrying branches. I can send a photo off-list. It is near > Newcastle airport. > > It is too early in the season to tell, but the seeds in these cones > will probably be the usual wretchedly small size. I want bigger. > > It was easy to walk past lots of trees and from many yards away see > how many cones they were carrying. I can see no such easy way of > searching for bigger seeds, and this is where I am asking for help. > > How can you search for bigger seeds? > > One possibility is that if a single seed is bigger, the regular > pattern of scales will be broken by a bigger seed inside. Is this a > workable search method? > > Another possibility is to sift the seeds after they have been got out > of the cones. How easy is it going to be do this by looking for > big-uns by spreading the seeds out on white paper? I have built a > seed-sifter which uses an air current from a computer cooling fan to > sort seeds by size/weight ratio. It shows promise. Have you got some > seeds which I could sort through? I can come and do it, I can bring > the sifter in my car. > > Are there any better ideas? > > To spread my net wide, I would be interested in any tree which has > cones which are unusual in any way. > > I would be very grateful for any help with any part of this. I would > be grateful for cuttings (which preserve the gene combination which > gave rise to feature of interest) or seeds (especially if they are > big) or an invitation to see a tree of interest. > > The plan is to copy the "Open Source" ideas of Linux and similar > computer systems. All those who contribute material will be offered > the results of my work. > > Obviously this is a very big thing, and I would like make use of the > knowledge which some of your members surely have. I don't know how you > > would like to handle this. You may put this letter, in whole or in > part, into your own publications. > > Unfortunately I have to be away at the busiest time for this, 18 Sept > - 19 Oct, to attend the wedding of my nephew to a Nepali girl in > Kathmandu. It will be a Hindu ceremony, with "heroic eating and > drinking", followed by a walk in "the hills" - the Himalayas! > > Michael Bell > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > Plantbio mailing list > Plantbio@net.bio.net > http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/plantbio > From bks from panix.com Thu Aug 6 23:30:33 2009 From: bks from panix.com (Bradley K. Sherman) Date: Fri Aug 7 08:44:18 2009 Subject: [Plant-biology] Seeking variations of alder for breeding it as a grain crop References: <4823b88650.michaelbell@michael.beaverbell.co.uk> Message-ID: Barbara Bliss wrote: >Does Alnus have any food value? How would one prepare it? > http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/food/saldercatkins/index.html --bks From bjbliss from gmail.com Fri Aug 7 11:49:46 2009 From: bjbliss from gmail.com (Barbara Bliss) Date: Fri Aug 7 12:35:23 2009 Subject: [Plant-biology] Seeking variations of alder for breeding it as a grain crop In-Reply-To: References: <4823b88650.michaelbell@michael.beaverbell.co.uk> Message-ID: Michael Bell: Alnus rubra is the PNW coastal upland N-fixing pioneer ("weed") species. The seed has wings. To use it as a grain, you'd need to get that off (Bradley Sherman used the sprouts, not the grain). Has anybody done that? another important thing to know will be how long seeds remain viable, and, if they are to be marketed as a food, how long they remain of nutritive value. Getting the germplasm will be free and easy; proving it is worth doing will be trickier. A lot has been done to select for herbs (corn, rice) with highly nutritive endosperm already, and each improvement is time consuming and costly. The Populus trichocarpa genome has been sequenced, however, and it is a close relative of Alnus, so could prove helpful. bb On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 12:30 AM, Bradley K. Sherman wrote: > Barbara Bliss wrote: > >Does Alnus have any food value? How would one prepare it? > > > > http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/food/saldercatkins/index.html > > --bks > > _______________________________________________ > Plantbio mailing list > Plantbio@net.bio.net > http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/plantbio > From michael from beaverbell.co.uk Fri Aug 7 13:38:28 2009 From: michael from beaverbell.co.uk (Michael Bell) Date: Fri Aug 7 15:04:33 2009 Subject: [Plant-biology] Seeking variations of alder for breeding it as a grain crop References: <4823b88650.michaelbell@michael.beaverbell.co.uk> Message-ID: <71fa368750.michaelbell@michael.beaverbell.co.uk> Barbara "PNW" = "Pacific North west"? Alnus incana and glutinosa has thin "rims", I suppose you could call them "wings". The whole thing has to be bred bigger, but the wing may not come off as a single piece which can be separated by winnowing and seiving methods. That may not matter. I propose grinding/milling in usual way. Some people pay more for "Brown bread" I know there is a long way to go, and many obstacles be overcome, but now that I have a highly productive variety, all that I need now is bigger seeds, and alder can "take off". After that there will be continual improvement, far beyond my time. Wheat has been in cultivation for 10 000 years and it is still being worked on. Michael In message Barbara Bliss wrote: > Michael Bell: > Alnus rubra is the PNW coastal upland N-fixing pioneer ("weed") species. The > seed has wings. To use it as a grain, you'd need to get that off (Bradley > Sherman used the sprouts, not the grain). Has anybody done that? another > important thing to know will be how long seeds remain viable, and, if they > are to be marketed as a food, how long they remain of nutritive value. > Getting the germplasm will be free and easy; proving it is worth doing will > be trickier. A lot has been done to select for herbs (corn, rice) with > highly nutritive endosperm already, and each improvement is time consuming > and costly. > The Populus trichocarpa genome has been sequenced, however, and it is a > close relative of Alnus, so could prove helpful. > bb > On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 12:30 AM, Bradley K. Sherman wrote: >> Barbara Bliss wrote: >>>Does Alnus have any food value? How would one prepare it? >>> >> >> http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/food/saldercatkins/index.html >> >> --bks >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Plantbio mailing list >> Plantbio@net.bio.net >> http://www.bio.net/biomail/listinfo/plantbio >> -- From Cartman from bogus.com Sun Aug 9 19:45:31 2009 From: Cartman from bogus.com (Cartman@bogus.com) Date: Sun Aug 9 21:02:24 2009 Subject: [Plant-biology] Which newsgroup can I post photos of plants for identification? Message-ID: Which newsgroup can I post photos of plants for identification? From RKurtz from commack.k12.ny.us Thu Aug 13 11:39:43 2009 From: RKurtz from commack.k12.ny.us (Richard Kurtz) Date: Thu Aug 13 11:47:33 2009 Subject: [Plant-biology] high school teacher question Message-ID: <43E486C1898A4A4AB8F458C7089A86261CF5568BB8@Commail2.commack.k12.ny.us> To whom it may concern, I wanted to find out about various methods to sample leaf tissue in field research plots or in any area where there are plants growing? Thanks rich Science Teacher From haakd from uw.edu Thu Aug 13 20:21:26 2009 From: haakd from uw.edu (David Haak) Date: Thu Aug 13 21:16:55 2009 Subject: [Plant-biology] Doubled Haploid Lines Message-ID: <5FF61ED9-1E64-4527-8178-7952DF73BB80@uw.edu> Hello All, I am looking to develop some DH lines (actually a number of them), does anyone know of any commercial endeavors in DH line development? thanks, David Haak PhD Candidate Department of Biology University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195-1800 From michael from beaverbell.co.uk Sun Aug 16 12:17:35 2009 From: michael from beaverbell.co.uk (Michael Bell) Date: Sun Aug 16 15:12:17 2009 Subject: [Plant-biology] Re: Doubled Haploid Lines References: Message-ID: <9a18d28b50.michaelbell@michael.beaverbell.co.uk> In message David Haak wrote: > Hello All, > I am looking to develop some DH lines (actually a number of them), > does anyone know of any commercial endeavors in DH line development? > thanks, > David Haak > PhD Candidate > Department of Biology > University of Washington > Seattle, WA 98195-1800 David I might need doubled haploid lines to be developed, but not as a commercial venture, more like the open source ideas of Linux and GNU - I'm not too clear on the exact legal structure of it all. I believe I can get more cooperation from people on this basis, and so far, I have had a good response. The project is to develop alder as a grain crop. I have found an interesting variation in the wild, I am looking for more and I can foresee the need for doubled haploids for reasons which I don't have to explain. If you feel that you cannot waste your time on a project which is for free, I fully understand, but I have no idea where to start, I would be grateful for your reading list. There is no urgency, I cannot start til next spring. Regards Michael Bell -- From allvira.50d3f47 from gardenbanter.co.uk Fri Aug 28 02:17:46 2009 From: allvira.50d3f47 from gardenbanter.co.uk (allvira) Date: Fri Aug 28 08:53:54 2009 Subject: [Plant-biology] Re: Cultures References: Message-ID: kamalaker nasani;857446 Wrote: > Hi, > > I have to use XL1 BLUE > > Just I want to know the difference in terms of transformation > efficiency and > protocol. > > What antibiotic we need to use the XL1 BLUE > > -- > Kamalaker Nasani, > Biotechnologist, > Global Transgenes Ltd. I don't have hands on experience in the field of biotechnology. I have to ask one question? What fertilizer should be used in the crop? Thanks -- allvira