Some trash I found in my Email inbox

Stephen Modena nmodena at ncsu.edu
Sat May 8 17:54:51 EST 1993


I love getting email....it is amazing what some people are ashamed to
say outloud in public!

     ----cut here: trash follows-----

Hi. I'm responding to your post......[pivoting on Elizabeth-at-Duke's]
...... by mail for a couple of reasons, but 
mostly because we men tend to talk too much and burn too much bandwidth.

[ See how well you've got this lap puppy trained to believe he is
worthless in your female presence?  For those of you with sons, do you
train your sons to be like this or does it make you vomit?]

Like your post, for example. It's wonderful that you can recognize
the talent of an exceptionally gifted girl. It's even great that you
think that _some_ women can excel in science. But the rest of your 
post is really a s___heap. 

[ Of course, the reason he isn't going to "burn too much bandwidth is
because *he* knows that what he is saying here privately is worth even
less than a "s___heap".....that's SHITheap for the non-native English
speakers. ]

First let me tell you about my experience. I have worked both in the 
computer industry as a programmer and in biomedical research. Two of my 
supervisors in each field have been women, and both of the PI's in 
biomedicine were department chairs. Furthermore, I have a number of 
female friends in science who range from my freshman-in-biology sister
to a woman who retired a couple years ago and still edits a major plant 
biology journal. 

[If these are the only women-of-accomplishment that he has met/known, he
is either young or terribly narrow in his professional/social
contacts....I won't patronize the WOMEN in this forum with my
"equivalent" credentials.  :^) ]

I also did a bunch of number crunching for one of my bosses on the results
of survey data regarding women-in-science at a number of the best small 
colleges in the country.            [Smith? Gaucher?....]    ^^^^ 

[Notice that he doesn't bother to CITE or NAME their work or the
boss(s)' name...and next he is going to use a standard *oppressor* tactic
of telling me how stupid and uninformed I am...totally unable to observe,
experiment, or read the literature and evaluate *correctly* for myself
....isn't that just like a man?  :^) In the Catholic Church, it is
prefered that one not read the Bible alone...whether as the Protestant
Reformation was based on the opposite notion...so perhaps goes the this
matter.]  

I don't think you really have a clue as to what women have traditionally 
been up against if they chose to pursue a career in science -and still
do, though to a somewhat lesser extent.   [Here we can substitute other
words, like Afro-American, Haitian, Navaho, Pacific Islander,
Hispanic.....and we've identified a person who has not quite come to
recognise that HE is stealing the rightful place in society and science
of the other excluded, but humanly deserving people. ]

....................................Creativity and tenacity are not
products of testosterone (here I should point out that my area of expertise
is reproductive endocrinology)

[This is known as "science-by-authority" or is it Goebbel's-type propaganda
by "higher-authority"?....cite your references, including the "opposing
view" literature for me to evaluate independently...otherwise I'll
assume you are nothing more than a whispering impostor of a intellectual
whimp.  :^) ]

................................... but of both heredity and -crucially- 
environment. 

[Well, maybe, maybe not.  My doctorate is in Genetics...and I'll admit
to have thought about the existance and balance of these two particular
components....and even about the influence of endocrines (your
specialty)...over many, many years coupled, of course, with extensive
personal observation and conversation with people in many cultural
environments....of course, you've just pronounced me a "dummy", but then
the feminist-and-lesbian rights activists have forewarned me that you
would do just that because you are a MALE...]

..............Some women will overcome a lack of role models if their 
family is supportive and encouraging, but you must remember that people
will only aspire towards what they see as possible.              ^^^^^

[ If you use "women" in the first clause, why didn't you use "women" in
the second...are you forgetful of what you are speaking of? ........and
on what you just said, I definitely depart chasmically from you.
If a person (woman) will aspire *only* to what that person sees as
possible, I'll leave them to your endocrine treatments.  On the
other hand, I'm always interested in the person with talents who
believes that anything is possible....and they're working on *it* RIGHT
NOW. ]

..................................................Why do you think
that there are so many more women in science today than 20 yrs. ago?
More testosterone?   :-0>

[ Strawman!  Read my posting again. ...but tell me: why are there so
many more women today in all-female infantry units poised at Clinton's
beheist to move in and slog it out mortar shell-for-mortar shell and
bayonet-for-bayonet with those rapist! Bosian Serbs.....is it because of
testosterone or estrogen?  ;^)  Is the feminist-lesbian-NOWist alliance
committed to reinstitiution of the Selective Service conscription of however
many females it takes to transform the U.S. military into an
approximately 50-50% combat death situation as IT SHOULD BE IN A FULLY
EGALITARIAN SOCIETY....I've known women who fought that Nazis
face-to-face as members of partisan units in Lithuania and Poland and I
saw what a cake-walk women had in the VietNam War and the 1973 Yom
Kippur War (yes, it really radicalized my outlook about how much ground
needs to be covered to reach full-participation by women in the world
as it exists...and I don't hesitate to tell young females that their
obligatory place is in the foxhole under fire in the defense of their
values and social institutions as required...just as I *don't* have two
different "lines" about professional/intellectual/labor/artistic/etc
goals/limitations depending whether I am taking to a male or to a
female.....but you do, don't you?  ]

Not blooody likely. People have expectations for themselves and others
that tend to fall in line with societal norms. If parents, and firends, and
the television _et al._ imply that girls should play in one way and 
boys in another (and they do!), how can you seriously suggest that this 
can be ignored and that social-psychological _crap_ studies can be 
depended on?  [ Didn't you say just alittle above how you
number-crunched a social-psychological survay....just you just reval
that it was CRAP? ]

Agressiveness=Complexity? What planet are you from?

[So I'll ask you to come out of your anonymous wormhole and be explicit
in this forum: just what are your "societal" norms, what do you espouse,
what you do, and......do you tell your daughter that she should prepare
to go war (hand-to-hand combat) and realize that it is high time to
leave our men at home to nuture our childern!  BTW, of all those
"exposed-to-the-dangers-of-war" female reservists that dutifully
responded to the call to the Persian Gulf (bravo!)....more than 1500 came home
because of "pregnancy" before a shot was fired....why would a potential,
ready-for-war portential combantant get pregnant? while on ready
reseve?  I'm from NC and alot of those reserve units  were called up
from here.]

Please, the group is women and science. You clealy understand neither one.

[ Again, just like a man, telling someone you've never met, what they
can understand and could not *possibly* understand.  :^) Of course, it's
the mark of the inverterate chauvanism to repeated tell someone you
disagree which that they *just* don't understand and you are about to
get angery...so you'd better watch it because I might loose my composure
and do something like hit you up side the head.  :^)  Is that what you are
really saying? ]

I bet a lot of people would appreciate it if you would shut up.
I'm somewhat sorry about the flame, but I really think you're out of line.

[ Now there it is: shut up.  I told Dave K. that this was a special
sexist enclave....and whether the women think of it that way, there is
no question that many men believe that PROFESSIONAL female biologists
must be segregated.  It's rather reminescent of the strictures of
present day conservative societies.....the veil and all those special
duties that women perform in the religious way of cloistered life.]

-Alex 

   ------cut here: end of trash-------

The difference between Elizabeth and Alex is that in a private email one
told me to shut up and the other told me specifically how and why the
nuturing and encouraging of our (collective) childern is so important.
I aggree with one and disagree with the other.  :^)

Steve
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|     In person:  Steve Modena     AB4EL                           |
|     On phone:   (919) 515-5328                                   |
|     At e-mail:  nmodena at unity.ncsu.edu                           | 
|                 samodena at csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu                |
|                 [ either email address is read each day ]        |
|     By snail:   Crop Sci Dept, Box 7620, NCSU, Raleigh, NC 27695 |
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         Lighten UP!  It's just a computer doing that to you.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
         



-- 
Stephen A. Modena      
nmodena at unity.ncsu.edu    samodena at csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu



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