multiple moves

DK dkat at
Sun Jun 16 21:00:42 EST 1996

JFRUGOLI at BIO.TAMU.EDU ("Julia Frugoli") wrote:

>I've been busy at the bench since my initial foray into what was 
>degenerating into a mudsling, but I was also beginning to think I had 
>been living on another planet.  I'm in biology (a "woman-friendly" 
>science statistically) and yet in the 4 bio departments I've been 
>through from undergrad on, I've never seen a department with more than 
>20% female faculty, often less.  And very few of THEM have husbands that 
>made career changes (I can think of 1).  In Chemistry, Math, Physics and 
>Engineering its MUCH worse.  So thanks Barb for reassuring me that I'm 
>not in some warped reality.

Do you really consider this thread to have turned into mud slinging?
Of course when you take the words out of context it certainly makes me
sound like your second  definition of bitch " just plain mean,
difficult to work with no matter what, and even sneaky, who wear the
label "bitch" with pride. They like being able to hurt people just by
opening their mouths."  You on the other hand sound pure and clean and
totally unaware that what you posted could also fall into the category
of the second definition.  Since more often than not I hurt myself
rather that hurt others I do not see myself falling within this
definition.  I do not claim that I have never hurt anyone.  I claim
that I have never done so with intent.  In an earlier post I said that
I shoud be more aware of cultural differences.  I have been on the
East coasst for the last two decades and have learned to modify my
behaviour in order to keep my sanity.  I reflect much of how people
here deal with one another.  I recommend that you keep in mind that
acceptable behaviour norms differs quite abit across the country.  

>If DK's comments about her department (psychology I believe) are true, 
>it then brings up another question in my mind.  What is different about 
>being a psychology professor that would make this true?  Do 
>psychologists do post-docs?  Are their "lab hours" more flexible?  Are 
>the granting expectations different?  Is the structure of the field 
>different (ie, are there older female faculty to mentor the "newly 
>minted" ones?)  Is it more socially acceptable in our society for, say,  
>a male banker, to be married to a "psychologist" versus a "chemist"?

My field is not clinical psychology but cognitive and it is rather
different in many ways from clinical so I will speak only for my area.

SUNY SB is a research institute and tenure there depends very much on
the ability to do research and publish.  In the current environment
this is probably true for all Universities  In addition having a grant
is "stongly" encouraged.  There is more money for bio than psych so it
is more difficaut to get funding in psychology (currently about 10%
of the grants get funded in psych for each pass - when we last got
funded it was at one point 4%).  Very few people now get jobs coming
out of grad school.  Most take Post Docs for one to three years
(probably if they don't have a job at the end of four it is not goiing
to  happen in academia).  I'm puzzled at what you mean by "are our lab
mores more flexible?"  The "rat runners", bio-psych people", etc.,
(those people working with animals) certainly have to be on site at
regular times.  As far as total time spent doing research, any
graduate student that expects to "make it" is going to have to spend a
larrge amount of time doing research.  In our lab most of our
experiments are run usiing computers.  The grad students have to learn
to write their own programs,  design them, collect the data, analyze
the data,  write it up and publish (one student in our current lab has
five publications, another has two and one under review. - these
papers in general are single authored or have one other author with
the student being primary author).  It is not easy to publish in
psychology.  Each year it gets harder.  I do believe that historically
bio essentially required  Post Docs before psychology did.  I suspect
that they are not much different at this point.  There are few senior
tenured faculty in psycholoty but there are many junior tenured
faculty so there were not until recently females to really serve as
mentors.  Your last sentence baffles me.  " Is it more socially
acceptable in our society for, say,  a male banker, to be married to a
"psychologist" versus a "chemist"?"  I haven't a clue on how to
respond to this.

>I raise these questions because

>1) I don't know


>2) When one system has desirable attributes (in this case, mobility and 
>ease of "2 job" faculty familes) and another doesn't, maybe a look at 
>what's different could give some clues as to how to change it.

I find this puzzling.  One woman I know was offered a job in
psychology and the University worked to find a faculty position in
philosophy for her spouse.  Most Universities that I know of will make
some effort to employ spouses whether they are in the same area or not
(I believe it is easier if they are in different areas).  There is no
reason why this should not be true of biology as well as any other

>The emphasis on discussing issues thoughtfully so we can each make a 
>difference in our corner of the world, which is so much a part of this 
>newsgroup and why I take time to participate, is something I hope the 
>recent use of not particularly thoughtful words like "stupid", "bitch" 
>and "grow up" will not diminish.

Would like to give me a list of what words I should use and not use?
Yes, these words out of context are certainly not P.C.  It is
certainly not "white bread", "professional", "refined", "feminine",
etc. but it is what I am and I do post here.  The group is certainly
small enough that it could be moderated and the rift-raft could be
kept out.


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