dkat at psych1.psy.sunysb.edu
Wed Jun 19 02:25:45 EST 1996
On Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:52:56 GMT, you wrote:
>cboake at utk.edu writes:
>> In article <4q0555$dkq at abel.cc.sunysb.edu>, dkat at psych1.psy.sunysb.edu
>> (DK) wrote:
I have no memory of saying this or can I find it in saved posts
>> > it seems that some serious effort
>> > should be made to make students aware of the facts before they enter
>> > Graduate school. Being the cynic I am, I doubt Universities would see
>Only naive students enter graduate school without knowing the
>facts and the tough road ahead. How many women on this
>newsgroup entered graduate school feel they didn't have the
Apparently you have missed some of the threads. I have been demonized
for saying the same thing but in a less mature and polite way (late at
night and feeling bitchy).
I originally stated -
"Am I alone or does this seem like an odd comment and a small child
whining about not getting the moon? If you are in academia, how can
you possibly expect to not move when you are through with graduate
school or finishing a post-doc? What does being male or female have
to do with it? Should they move the University that has a position to
you? I have known many males and females that have problems getting
positions in the same locations as their significant other. More
often than not, if you are good and the University wants you, they
make arrangements for jobs for both people.
There is enough sexism to deal with without demeaning it by asking for
in response to "
> I really feel that the entire science career track is
>anti-family and anti-relationship because of the unwritten (or written)
>rules about having to move so many times throughout one's career in
> I have known women (and I'm sure there are quite a few men, too)
>who have been denied post doc fellowships because they didn't pick up and
>move across the country (which would have been difficult because of
>family). " - sarah boomer
By the second post I was crankier.
"Anyone who can get into Graduate School should be smart enough to
figure out the facts of life themselves. Women are raised to think of
themselves as children dependent on others. I've been in academia for
more than 20 years and have never heard such stuff. Grow up. DK"
Which was followed with some probably justly deserved criticism for
being harsh, crass, etc. and some a bit more than that when I stated
that I was bitchy (oh, all right - and proud of it! It has taken me
many years to stand up for myself).
"That being said, I've met women who are just plain mean, difficult to
work with no matter what, and even sneaky, who wear the label "bitch"
with pride. They like being able to hurt people just by opening their
mouths. They don't seem to understand that the same steamroller
behavior that's being labeled "bitch" in them is labeled "bastard" in
men, and nobody wants to work for or with either gender of the above
for very long. In this case, being bitchy is not a good thing." -
I believe this was directed towards me.
>Lack of knowledge comes from poor mentoring/advising of
>undergraduate students. Many profs are poor mentors - nobody
>"trains" you to be a mentor and many simply lack the time to
>listen and educate. Also - how can you help a student that
>refuses to come knock on your door? Many students swing by
>their advisors office to get a signature on a piece of paper
>once a year - not stopping to talk.
There is a definite handicap for students that do no know the system
(the simple fact that it is important to speak with your professors in
class and out for example). It is usually those who do not have
parents to guide them through school in their early years and simply
make it on raw intelligence.
The following was meant to mean that the last thing we want to do is
discourage women from the field. Yes, it is hard but so is life.
>> > this as being in their best interest. So the question I then come to
>> > is do we as women want to discourage other women from entering the
>> > field
>There's a difference between discouraging and providing the
>tough facts. You can let someone know about the difficult road
>ahead, yet still encourage them to consider a scientific
I did not say this.
>> These are tough issues. My university has its head in the sand regarding
>> job availability, and wants us to crank out MSs and PhDs as though the job
>> market in all fields were infinite. I am tending towards a two-tiered
>Most places do have their heads in the sand. They need the
>students to teach and do research, there is no incentive for
>them to cut the number of incoming students.
>kas4e at virginia.edu
I write because what has been attributed to me here does not really
represent anything that I have said or at least meant. I was pleased
to read someone else stating my thoughts in a more "receptive" manner.
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