sports & baking & frustration!

Mr. W.Y. Chan wahchan at liverpool.ac.uk
Mon Jan 6 08:04:23 EST 1997


rtemple at NETMAIL.HSCBKLYN.EDU wrote:
: wahchan wrote....(sorry it's the whole thing)

: <snip>

: Hi Robyn,
: I find its interesting you play soccer and I assume you are from USA?
: In England and Europe as well as South America soccer is very popular sport
: and currently all professional soccer are men, there are womens league but
: all are part time (playing for fun). I was a bit surprise that you (a female)
: was actually playing soccer at High school with the boys but at second thought
: I remember the game has not really established well in the US and had only
: recently taken a slow start after the recent World Cup and soccer in its
: true form is a pretty dirty game as well as physical and of course skill
: and tactical. I believe in England boys and girls can play soccer together
: in school upto 9 yrs old and after that they get seperated because
: girls start to loose out on the physical aspect.
: On another note the game of hockey was (and probably still is) considered
: a "girl's game" at our school, maybe only becuase the girls was encouraged
: to take up that sport while the boys took interest in soccer, however
: I was the star player for the boys at hockey and took to up the game very
: quickly even though we only played no more than 3 or 4 times a year, the girls
: played hockey regularly on twice weekly basis and being their sport they
: have a proper school team. Well anyway one summer day we organised a
: hockey tournament between the boys "part timers" Vs the girls School Team
: and guess what, the boys thrashed the girls 5-0, we were better in all
: department of the game, we werent being too physical just that we incorporated
: the skill of teamwork acquired from soccer and willingness to pressurised
: the opponent, maybe there is story somewhere.
: As far as treating women as equals, not all but in my opinion most men can
: treat women as equal and yes you would need to do it on our term, some
: may criticise me for saying so but how else do you expect to gain equality
: without earning it? Men too can be descriminated by women, well that is
: another argument.


:   Wah.

: <end>

: By the time I was in high school (I graduated in 1990), men's soccer had
: DEFINATELY established itself in most colleges, universities, & high schools -
: especially in NY/NJ/PA. AYSO & other youth soccer organizations offered co-ed
: programs from ages 6/7 up to 21 years old. It wasn't unusual to see co-ed teams
: in these settings, but very rare to see a girl playing select team or varsity
: men's soccer.  I am sorry that the UK separates out the boys & girls at age 9 -
: the physicality of soccer is exactly what makes most female players the highest
: skilled & most able tactical players on most co-ed teams, in my experience. Of
: the 50 people who played on my teams in high school, 7 of them went to college
: on soccer scholarships. I was offered scholarships at three well established
: women's soccer progams. Not because I was a brute, not because I was an able
: soccer player, but because I had taken the experiences from the field & applied
: them to my academics (critical reasoning, diligence, dedication). 4 of the men
: who had gone to college on similar scholarships failed out of school because
: they were unable to make the teamwork & dedication that they had for/during the
: game a part of the rest of their lives. The characteristics that men have on the
: playing fields of their childhoods very rarely translate into their interactions
: with others once they 'grow up.' 

A "scholarship in soccer"? That is a new one to me. I guess players like
Pele, Diego Maradonna and Paul Gasgoine (famouse soccer lout and wife beater)
would gets accepted for acedemic study in soccer (Pele maybe but the other
two I very much doubt and a good chance of failing like those 4 other men)
but I doubt very much. In fact many talented footballer dont do very well
acedemically yet their skill in the field is all they need, practice
and skill speaks for themselves. I have seen US style football and
also women's game on the international level, the US style is very much
similar to what the rest of the world was playing 40 years ago were the pace
of game is a hell of a lot slower, few close markings, plenty of open
spaces and more friendly (no dirty elbowing, pulling shirt, malicouse
wounding, play acting etc to name a few) in fact if the rest of the soccer
nations around the world had stuck to the same pattern of play in the US
like they were doing 40 years ago children as young as 12 yrs and adult as old
as 60 yrs would have been playing in the same team and women would have
competed with the men. If you look at Superbowl in the US this is a good
comparison to soccer in other countries.

: As far as us having to prove ourselves on 'men's terms' ---
: Why should I have to jump through your hoops? Who decided that in order to gain
: equality from men, you had to act like one? Who decided that there was value in
: bringing home the bacon, but none for preparing it? What bothers me most is when 
: a new male student comes into the lab & instead of taking my word for some
: stupid proceedural point, he usually spends a week doing it completely wrong (or
: tries to reinvent the wheel) just to find out that what I said was correct.
: We're talking silly things like attempting to run agarose gels in water instead
: of TAE buffer, etc. 99% of the men I know are obstinate and have real problems
: working in a cooperative venture with women (much less taking direction from
: them!). And these are the same men who expect you to clean their glassware &
: think media grows on trees & falls into the petri dishes sterile. I think more
: women should demand that men jump through a few of their own hoops & see how
: quickly they learn to dislike it. I'm not condoning outright discrimination vs.
: men - just making them walk the walk more than has happened in the past. Maybe
: tenure should be based in part on how good a lobster bisque or balaclava you can
: make for the committee meeting! ;)

: Robyn
I cant really answer your above comments except to say a lots of what you said
that were critical about men in general is very much a minority case and
those critisicm can be easily have made equally against a "minority" of women
too. I know women who can manage and supervise a factory of men, maybe look
at the way you manage yourself rather than critisize others you find difficulty
to work with?


	Wah.
 

: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Robyn Temple
: SUNY HSC at Brooklyn



: Robyn
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~




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