From marcasan from uv.es Sun Nov 11 12:08:53 2007 From: marcasan from uv.es (Antonio Marco) Date: Sun Nov 11 13:01:21 2007 Subject: [Molecular-evolution] Reply to Faustino's proposal on evolution Message-ID: <47373725.6070500@uv.es> Dear mol-evol members and Faustino, I've recently read your proposal about the definition of evolution. Doubtless, "evolution" (in a biological manner) is a difficult term, but I'm sure that the definition exposed in wikipedia is the best we have. Evolution means change, not adaptation. In evolutionary biology there is a great controversy on the role of Natural Selection, adaptation, mutation, chance and so on, as causes of evolutionary change. We all evolutionary biologist spend a considerable fraction of time on discussing which is the main evolutionary force, and you can see different views, for instance: - M. Kimura, T. Ohta, M. Nei... (neutralism). Evolution is driven by stochastic process. Adaptation plays a "sieving" not a "creative" role. - S. Kauffman, R. Sol?. Self-organizing principles drives the evolution of species. Adaptation to new environments is a byproduct - E. Wiley. Evolution is an entropic driven process. There is a net increase on entropy of living systems which results in evolutionary processes independent of adaptation. - R. Dawkins, Maynard-Smith (and many many more). Adaptation is crucial on evolution, acting as a kind of optimization principle over living beings. This is an oversimplification of some of the different trends in evolutionary biology, and you can refer to other authors such as Mike Lynch, Gillespie, Andreas Wagner, Dan Hartl, Dan Graur, Svante P??bo and tens of other biologists to see different points of view of what evolution is. Nevertheless all of them, as the rest of evolutionary biologists, have a point in common that is: species change, and only the inheritable changes are transmitted to the next generation, and therefore the change is maintained. So the best definition we have of evolution is INHERITABLE CHANGE. An adaptation-based definition would be biased and partial. Best Toni Marco From faustnh from gmail.com Mon Nov 12 11:12:33 2007 From: faustnh from gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?RmF1c3Rpbm8gTvrxZXogSGVybuFuZGV6?=) Date: Tue Nov 13 09:36:37 2007 Subject: [Molecular-evolution] Re: Reply to Faustino's proposal on evolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1194883953.786645.46140@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> Hi Toni , thanks for your answer . There was a wider discussion at http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_frm/thread/81f1816896164a27/38693ab6cbc29e62?tvc=1#38693ab6cbc29e62 . I consider I have strong reasons for defending the definition I proposed , but I've also learnt that it is useless I try to explain those reasons . As you can see at http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_frm/thread/81f1816896164a27/38693ab6cbc29e62?tvc=1#38693ab6cbc29e62 , I finally concluded it could be useful to consider a double-sensed definition of Evolution : - - Evolution , in the sense of biological capacity itself of living organisms for transforming , varying or mutating , maybe in some cases due to external factors but in general regardless environmental conditions . Or evolution in the sense of biological capacity itself for assuming mutations of transformations , independently of the relation between these transformations and environmental conditions . ( Or , in short , evolution as the capacity of mutating itself , not regarding environmental conditions ) . - - And Evolution , in the sense of living organisms' transformation , change or mutation for (re)adapting to new environmental conditions ( evolution regarding environmental conditions ; this would be rather the classic sense ) . The first one of these two senses tends to evoke a short-term evolution ( for example from parents to offspring , or from one generation to another ) , while the second sense tends to evoke a long- term evolution ( for example , from fishes to reptiles ) . I'll finally add that , in my opinion , biological variability has a clear relation to environmental variability . And NO , I can't accept in any way the handling of the concept of heritability , because it relies on the concept of reproduction ( exo- reproduction ) , and it does not consider at all the mutation and evolution of simple forms of life by means of endogenous ( metabolic ) regeneration ( that is , without exogenous separated rebuilding ) . From Rodrigo.Ritter from canavialis.com.br Tue Nov 13 13:52:25 2007 From: Rodrigo.Ritter from canavialis.com.br (Rodrigo Ritter) Date: Tue Nov 13 13:22:35 2007 Subject: [Molecular-evolution] DNA Sequence HELP Message-ID: <1EF288615AAD96468F940D6EB47A3C8F32AF8F73F4@mail.canavialis.com.br> Hello, Angel! I've seen your post at http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/mol-evol/1997-March/005391.html Have you found the algorithms in Delphi? I?m trying to show any molecular sequences in Delphi... Thanks a lot. -- Rodrigo Ritter Canavialis S.A. Condom?nio Techno Park Via Anhanguera, Km 104 13069-380. Campinas, SP Fone: 55 19 3512-4000 Fax: 55 19 3512-4194 Site: www.canavialis.com.br Uma empresa da Votorantim Novos Neg?cios. Esta mensagem, incluindo seus anexos, tem car?ter confidencial e seu conte?do ? restrito ao destinat?rio da mensagem. Caso voc? a tenha recebido por engano, queira, por favor, retorn?-la ao destinat?rio e apag?-la de seus arquivos. Qualquer uso n?o autorizado, replica??o ou dissemina??o desta mensagem ou parte dela ? expressamente proibido. A CanaVialis S.A. n?o se responsabilizar? pelo conte?do ou pela veracidade desta informa??o. This message, including any attachments hereto, is confidential and its contents are privileged and intended to be received only by the person to whom it is addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error, please return it to the sender and delete it from your files or message folders. Any unauthorized use, duplication or release of this message, or any part of it, is strictly prohibited. CanaVialis S.A. does not assume any responsibility for the content or veracity of the information contained herein. Hello, I'm Angel and I'm from Barcelona (Spain). Sorry, but my English is not good that I wish. I'm doing a project based on Molecular Biology and I would be interested to meet people who could help me to do the application. The project will work with DNA Sequences and I would like that people interested wrote me an e-mail (sa328 at blues.uab.es) talking about DNA and places where I could find source programs (in Pascal, C, Delphi,...). I've visited some places as www.ebi.ac.uk,...but I didn't find nothing. Thanks and happy day!!!!!!!!!!. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/mol-evol/attachments/20071113/96652536/attachment.html From gilbertd from cricket.bio.indiana.edu Wed Nov 21 17:16:59 2007 From: gilbertd from cricket.bio.indiana.edu (Don Gilbert) Date: Wed Nov 21 17:27:28 2007 Subject: [Molecular-evolution] Bionet evolution discussion removals: please comment Message-ID: <200711212216.lALMGxw00417@cricket.bio.indiana.edu> Dear bionet.molbio.evolution readers, One of the contributors to this topic on "evolutionary advantages of homosexual inclinations" has asked that the public discussion identifying him be removed or edited to anonymity, including others' messages. http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/mol-evol/1997-March/thread.html Please comment on whether you feel it appropriate to remove parts of this discussion from the http://www.bio.net/ archives at the request of a contributor. To me, this looks like appropriate content for bionet.molbio.evolution and suitable to the public archives. As current caretaker of the BIOSCI/Bionet public discussion forums, it is one of my responsibilities to handle requests from people who have privacy concerns about the discussion they and others have contributed over the years. I also know that Bionet archives are read at the rate of 50,000/day, and are helping many people learn of biosciences including areas with controversy. Please refer to this document, http://www.bio.net/bionet/docs/biosci-termsofuse.html and the related linked discussion of others, for the policy on Bionet's public discussions that I've arrived at, and why. In this same 1997-March archive, and prior dates, find the post "BIOSCI/bionet miniFAQ & Fundraiser" BIOSCI Administrator that introduces readers to BIOSCI/Bionet including its public nature and the existence of public archives. This information has been widely available since 1992. In this same month, see a thread that I contributed "How to draw portions of a phylogenetic tree?" I would disagree with requests to remove or edit messages in this discussion, though of course it doesn't touch on controversial areas. It is troubling to me that contributors to areas of possible science controversy are asking to edit this public record. You all have the possibility that discussion in areas of science or social controversy will disappear. One of the contributors to the above discussion wrote "Recently it has been brought to the publics attention that information involving violent behavior of primates has been squelched and supressed to some degree." You have at hand one reason for suppression of science discussion, and can help decide if it will occur. This and similar requests to Bionet are happening in part to address privacy concerns. In this case it appears that a commercial pornography website borrowed from Bionet archives the name of a contributor and the "homosexual" key word. This is rather nasty commercial activity, at the same level as all those spams I get purporting to be sent by myself or people I know. However, I do not believe that hiding Bionet discussions are an appropriate answer to such misuse of Internet archives. Note the same articles exist for public use at google.com, archive.org and other Internet archives of Bionet. I can only edit the archives at www.bio.net -- Don Gilbert, BIOSCI/Bionet caretaker -- e-mail: biosci-help@net.bio.net