In article <31D12ACB.4924 at student.uq.edu.au>,
Darren Poulton <s340222 at student.uq.edu.au> wrote:
>Xochi,
>>I too am sorry for the flames, but you must have realised that the way you phrased your
>initial article would have deeply offended those who do believe (especially a believer
Which is unfortunate. But I can't please everyone. I'm sorry you took offense,
but I generally don't believe in mincing words.
>Unfortunately, at this stage of mankind's scientific understanding, the proof of these
>'wild claims' is IMPOSSIBLE. This is simply because the effects of what is known
>commonly as 'Witchcraft' are not measurable, or quantifiable and their theories are not
>testable - yet. Remember that until only a few hundred years ago magnetism was
That may well be the case (I hint at this in the intro to my bibliography).
So how are we to determine _real_ witchcraft from fantasy? Can we? What
criteria would you use to determine whether or not someone was having
genuine (whatever that entails) psychic/witchcraft/magic experiences
(as opposed to to a mere excitation of the imagination...)?
>considered to belong in the realm of the supernatural.
>>My objection to your post was that you gave an indication that any and all who believe
>in anything to do with the occult were a bunch of lunatics. May I remind you that the
Sorry that you interpreted what I said that way. I wonder what you think
a lunatic is. I strongly suggested that many people involved with the
occult are quite capable of living "normal" lives in society, and so
couldn't be considered lunatics at all. I suspect most of them keep
their beliefs hidden rather well. Whereas you should be able to spot
a lunatic immediately (though not necessarily).
And, working from the assumption that witchcraft/magic isn't "real"
(I think it's perfectly acceptable to start with this assumption, so
long as I'm willing to give it up if the evidence merits my doign so)
, I'm wondering how people come to have these beliefs, and if there
might be some biological basis for it (temporal lobe epilepsy maybe?
I don't know...).
It's a complex subject, because people believe in magic/witchcraft
at different levels and, I suspect, for different reasons.
I've no doubt that "otherwise intelligent people" (strong language on
my part again...) such as doctors, humanities ppl, etc. believe
in the occult. Intelligence (which is a very vague term anyhow) isn't
always a guard of how susceptible a person is to beliefs which are, I
think, unjustifiable. In other words, believing in the supernatural
doesn't mean someone is dumb, or a lunatic (necessarily). Yet I feel
that their beliefs are probably _wrong_ nonetheless.
Apparently, even Newton spent as much, or more, time pouring over
and writing about biblical prophecies, etc. That doesn't make him a
bad scientist, yet he likely had false beliefs about prophecy, etc.
>basic elements of ALL religions may be considered to be of supernatural origin and I
>wonder if you hold the same opinion of say (for example) those of the Christian faith
>many of whom claim to have had 'visions' sent to them by their 'God' and to be able to
>'heal' through the power of their 'Lord Jesus Christ'. ie Durant, Joan of Arc, Thomas
>Aquinias, any Pope, etc.......
Absolutely I have the same opinion of such Christians. I would attribute
these experiences to rich fantasy lives rather than supernatural entities.
Though I don't know that to be true. I suspect that it's true.
I think the very variety of experiences people claim to have is enough to
cast doubt on the reality of any of them... If Christians believe that
Jehovah is the only God, other people must be wrong in their experiences
of other gods... and vice-versa. They can't all be "right." So then one
can ask about who those who are "wrong" came to acquire wrong beliefs/
have misleading experiences... I think even an occultist should be able
to accept that. Maybe not.
- Xochi
--
| Xochi Zen "William James used to preach the 'will to believe.' For |
|x at apocalypse.org my part, I should wish to preach the 'will to doubt.' ... |
| What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the wish to|
| find out, which is the exact opposite" - Bertrand Russell |
