In article <4qril9$kin at asylum.apocalypse.org>, Xochi Zen (x at apocalypse.org) writes:
>In article <31D12ACB.4924 at student.uq.edu.au>,
>Darren Poulton <s340222 at student.uq.edu.au> wrote:
>>Xochi,
>>>>I too am sorry for the flames, but you must have realised that the way you phrased your
>>initial article would have deeply offended those who do believe (especially a believer
>> Which is unfortunate. But I can't please everyone. I'm sorry you took offense,
> but I generally don't believe in mincing words.
>snip!
>>My objection to your post was that you gave an indication that any and all who believe
>>in anything to do with the occult were a bunch of lunatics. May I remind you that the
>> Sorry that you interpreted what I said that way. I wonder what you think
> a lunatic is. I strongly suggested that many people involved with the
> occult are quite capable of living "normal" lives in society, and so
> couldn't be considered lunatics at all. I suspect most of them keep
> their beliefs hidden rather well. Whereas you should be able to spot
> a lunatic immediately (though not necessarily).
snip!
> I've no doubt that "otherwise intelligent people" (strong language on
> my part again...) such as doctors, humanities ppl, etc. believe
> in the occult. Intelligence (which is a very vague term anyhow) isn't
> always a guard of how susceptible a person is to beliefs which are, I
> think, unjustifiable. In other words, believing in the supernatural
> doesn't mean someone is dumb, or a lunatic (necessarily). Yet I feel
> that their beliefs are probably _wrong_ nonetheless.
>> Apparently, even Newton spent as much, or more, time pouring over
> and writing about biblical prophecies, etc. That doesn't make him a
> bad scientist, yet he likely had false beliefs about prophecy, etc.
>>>basic elements of ALL religions may be considered to be of supernatural origin and I
>>wonder if you hold the same opinion of say (for example) those of the Christian faith
>>many of whom claim to have had 'visions' sent to them by their 'God' and to be able to
>>'heal' through the power of their 'Lord Jesus Christ'. ie Durant, Joan of Arc, Thomas
>>Aquinias, any Pope, etc.......
>> Absolutely I have the same opinion of such Christians. I would attribute
> these experiences to rich fantasy lives rather than supernatural entities.
> Though I don't know that to be true. I suspect that it's true.
>> I think the very variety of experiences people claim to have is enough to
> cast doubt on the reality of any of them... If Christians believe that
> Jehovah is the only God, other people must be wrong in their experiences
> of other gods... and vice-versa. They can't all be "right." So then one
> can ask about who those who are "wrong" came to acquire wrong beliefs/
> have misleading experiences... I think even an occultist should be able
> to accept that. Maybe not.
>>> - Xochi
>>--
>| Xochi Zen "William James used to preach the 'will to believe.' For |
>|x at apocalypse.org my part, I should wish to preach the 'will to doubt.' ... |
>| What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the wish to|
>| find out, which is the exact opposite" - Bertrand Russell |
Whew! At last the air is beginning to clear, we can start getting
down to the real scientific meat!
Similar things are happening in Palaeoanthropology, which
incidentally seem to be connected with the course of this
discussion. The basis for this link concerns a genetic
"punctuation" a la Eldridge & Gould that now appears to have taken
place among our ancestors as recently as 140,000 years ago
probably first in Africa. As it affected brain chemistry it cannot
clearly appear in our ancestors bones, but does appear in their
cultural objects. Read "The Neandertal Enigma" by James Greeve.
Cheers! Gord
