Joseph A Nagy Jr <pagan_prince at charter.net> wrote:
>John Knight wrote:
>> "Joseph A Nagy Jr" <pagan_prince at charter.net> wrote in message
>>>>You "wiberals" even made a LIE out of his letter regarding "wall of
>>>>separation between church and state".
>>>>>><snip>
>>>It was more then a letter, obviously, it became part of the Bill of
>> Rights, which he helped draft.
>>>That wall should be as high as the noon day sun and as thick as the void
>> between here and the edge
>>>of the universe. The religious of this nation (or any nation) should NOT
>> push their views upon those
>>>within in the nation. It is wrong. It breeds hate and resentment. It
>> breeds more fuck heads like
>>>you. It causes war and strife. Religion has probably been the cause of
>> more wars then land and women
>>>combined (and I'd rather fight over a beautiful woman, they are actually
>> WORTH going to war over,
>>>IMO). Jeruselem is the Jewish AND Christian Holy Land. Lets all live in
>> peace and TOLERANCE. Jesus
>>>tried to teach that, but you seemed to have missed the point. Did you even
>> go to Church yesterday,
>>>Mr. Knight?
>>>>>> No, it did not become "part of the Bill of Rights". The words "wall",
>> "separate" and "separation" don't ever appear anywhere in the entire US
>> Constitution. Search for them yourself at
>>http://christianparty.net/usconstn.htm>>>> This was an excerpt from a letter Mr. Jefferson wrote YEARS after the US
>> Constitution and the Bill of Rights had been implemented, and you "liberals"
>> have taken it entirely out of context. Mr. Jefferson wanted to include the
>> word "Christian" in the Bill of Rights, just as it still appears in the
>> Virginia Constitution which he helped draft. The "wall of separation"
>> referred to his desire to prohibit GOVERNMENT from dictating RELIGION, as it
>> now does, like by being one of the only countries in the entire world to
>> deny school children the simple right to pray to God.
>>>> Whether you're a LIAR, or just STUPID, has yet to be seen, Nagy, but if
>> you're going to quote Christian men like Mr. Jefferson, GET IT RIGHT.
>>>> John Knight
>>I'm neither, just mistaken, Mr. Knight. I apologize for my assumptions.
I'm not sure what you are apologizing for. You were both wrong on a
point of fact, and he was more wrong than you because your error was
not fundamental to the argument, and indeed as will be seen below,
your point agreed with Jefferson.
Jefferson actually was NOT involved in the writing of the Bill of
Rights (so you were wrong), so he could not have "wanted to include
the word "Christian" in the Bill of Rights" (so the nincompoop was
wrong). Jefferson was in France as the US ambassador from 1784 until
1789 when he took office as Washington's Secretary of State, and had
little role in writing or ratification of the Constitution.
His major contribution to religious liberty other than the phrase
"separation of church and state" was his 1779 bill on religious
liberty, which most certainly did NOT include the word "Christian" nor
favored Christianity. In that bill are words that pretty much agree
with what you wrote above:
JAN,Jr.:
>The religious of this nation (or any nation) should NOT
> push their views upon those within in the nation.
TJ:
>the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as
> ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired
> men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their
> own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible,
> and as such endeavoring to impose them on others,
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7842/bill-act.htm
After years of controversy, with the pro-religious-establishment
opposition led by Patrick Henry, and the pro-religious-freedom side
led by James Madison, it did not pass until 1786, by which time
Jefferson was in France. While Jefferson's bill did not use the
phrase "separation of church and state" (that came a couple decades
later in a letter), it had the basic concept, which Madison developed
more fully in his "Memorial and Remonstrance", a petition that so
strongly argued the case against establishment that it attracted a
huge following and led to passing Jefferson's bill.
http://www.jmu.edu/madison/remon.html
The *principle* of separation of church and state (without that
particular phrase used) was then embodied in both the Constitution and
in the Bill of Rights, as written by Madison only a couple years after
the Remonstrance. What the phrase means is clearly reflected in
Jefferson's bill and Madison's remonstrance (and how the US SC saw
those writings as being consistent with vouchers is beyond me).
The phrase actually occurred in a letter he wrote as President in
1802, in which he said:
>Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between
> man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or
> his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach
> actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign
> reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that
> their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of
> religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a
> wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this
> expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights
> of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of
> those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural
> rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social
> duties.
>>I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessings of
> the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you and your
> religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.
Note that despite the nincompoop's doctored quote "I am a Christian"*,
he replied to the Danbury Baptist Association which prayed for
Christ's mediation with an invocation of the Father and Creator AND NO
MENTION OF CHRIST. He also explicitly equated the 1st amendment to a
wall of separation, which is precisely the opposite of what the
nincompoop claimed.
http://sc94.ameslab.gov/TOUR/tjefferson.html
*The full quote is:
>"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it
>is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a
> disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the
> Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and
> preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic
> dogmas from what its Author never said nor saw." --Thomas Jefferson
> to Charles Thompson, 1816. ME 14:385
where the "document" in question was Jefferson's rewrite of the Bible
that eliminated all the miracles, leaving Christ as merely a great
teacher of morals and ethics, by which standards, probably many
Moslems and Wiccans could say "I am a Christian", too.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7842/archives/christn.htm
The documents quoted in the web pages that I've cited are as
fundamental to the history of our religious freedom as the 1st
amendment itself, and every American should know what they say, and
why our religious freedom is important.
So please take back your apology. Your grasp of details was fuzzy,
but at least you understand the essentials of Jefferson's position.
lojbab
