"John Knight" <jwknight at polbox.com> wrote:
>"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab at lojban.org> wrote in message
>news:i8ttmug619v833acfff9gqi6f1129c1q9a at 4ax.com...>> "John Knight" <jwknight at polbox.com> wrote:
>> >No, if he was a jew, he could NOT have been a member of the Tribe of
>> >Benjamin, because only Israelites were members of the Tribe of Benjamin.
>>>> Tribal membership was determined by descent.
>>Golly, gee, whillickers. Miracles never cease.
>>Are you finally acknowledging that "races" do exist after all?
No. I said "tribal membership". Not the same thing as biological
race. If a Benjaminite married an Ephraimite, then their offspring
would be considered one of the two tribes, not both. There was no
rule even in Deuteronomy, about the tribes of Israel mixing together.
Hence tribal membership was not the same as race.
>> >He DID have one great-grandparent out of 8 who was an Israelite,
>>>> Actually it has been argued that it was Mordacai himself that was of
>> the tribe of Benjamin. But all of the descendants of even ONE member
>> of the Tribe of Benjamin, whether you think they are Israelites or
>> not, are descendants of Benjamin, and thence of Abraham.
>>Do you believe that argument?
By definition, it was argued against YOU and hence is more believable.
because you speak the words of your Father the Prince of Liars.
>Can you produce the Holy Scripture that claims that Mordecai was an
>Israelite rather than a Jew?
Why would I need to, since the Jews WERE people of Israel according to
the Bible?
>There's only one way for a descendant of a Benjamite great-grandparent to be
>an Israelite, and that's for all 8 great-grandparents to be Israelites.
Yep. And hence Mordechai was an Israelite.
And why would the story of Esther be part of Holy Scripture, if it
were about non-Israelites?
>To this very day, jews and Israelites are two entirely separate and distinct
>races.
To this day there are Jews, and there are non-Jews. There are no
Israelites.
>Most of the 15 million jews in the world claim to be descendants of
>Ashkenaz,
Not one Jew claims to be a descendant of Ashkenaz.
>Most of the 2 billion Christians in the world are descendants of the
>Israelites. White English and Americans are descendants of the Tribes of
>Manessah and Ephraim. The Danes are descendants of the Tribe of Dan.
Hogwash.
>Germans are descendants of the Tribe of David.
David was not one of the 12 tribes, stupid.
Jesus Christ was a descendant of David. Are you contending that He
was a German? Remember that the Germans were warring with the Romans
in Germany a couple thousand miles away from Nazareth.
What a nincompoop?
>Israelites
No such animal, no matter how many times you say it.
>The only people who lived in Judaea who were called "jews" were jews. You
>cannot find one single scrap of Holy Scripture which ever calls an Israelite
>of any Tribe living in Judaea a "jew".
Every reference to the Jews in the Bible is a reference to the people
of the tribe of Judah.
>> >The jews didn't.
>>>> But they did. Read the ending of Nehemiah again. It was JEWS that
>> followed Nehemiah, who put away foreign wives, etc.
>>NO. It refers only to Israelites, not jews:
>>Nehemiah 9:1 Now in the twenty and fourth day of this month the children of
>Israel were assembled with fasting, and with sackcloth, and earth upon them.
>>Nehemiah 9:2 And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all
>foreigners, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their
>fathers.
>>Nehemiah 9:3 And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the
>law of Jehovah their God a fourth part of the day; and another fourth part
>they confessed, and worshipped Jehovah their God.
>>"Children of Israel" means Israelites, not jews.
>>There are references in Nehemiah to jews. But the word "jew" appears
>NOWHERE in Nehemiah 9 which describes putting away the foreign wives of
>Israelites and their children.
I said the END of Nehemiah. That is Neh. 13 Where he talks to the
JEWS and the Levites:
>[22] And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should come and keep the gates, to sanctify the sabbath day. Remember me, O my God, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of thy mercy.
>[23] In those days also saw I Jews that had married wives of Ashdod, of Ammon, and of Moab:
>[24] And their children spake half in the speech of Ashdod, and could not speak in the Jews' language, but according to the language of each people.
>[25] And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves.
>[26] Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? yet among many nations was there no king like him, who was beloved of his God, and God made him king over all Israel: nevertheless even him did outlandish women cause to sin.
>[27] Shall we then hearken unto you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives?
>[28] And one of the sons of Joiada, the son of Eliashib the high priest, was son in law to Sanballat the Horonite: therefore I chased him from me.
>[29] Remember them, O my God, because they have defiled the priesthood, and the covenant of the priesthood, and of the Levites.
>[30] Thus cleansed I them from all strangers, and appointed the wards of the priests and the Levites, every one in his business;
>[31] And for the wood offering, at times appointed, and for the firstfruits. Remember me, O my God, for good.
Read verses 23-27 again and again and again, because he is chastising
JEWS for having strange wives, and making THEM swear by God, not
anyone called "Israelites" who are not mentioned anywhere in the
chapter.
You've lost this one, loser.
>Why? These are TWO DIFFERENT RACES.
No.
>> >Esau married Canaanite women and God hated him for it, so Esau and his
>> >family were banished to Edom, never to associate with, inter-marry with, or
>> >socialize with Israelites (other than to war with them).
>>>> Except that they did associate, intermarry and socialize with them in
>> the time of the captivity.
>>But the Israelite law never changed. No children born to such marriages
>(and there's no evidence that this occurred any more frequently then than it
>does now) were ever considered to be Israelites.
David.
>You seem to always presume that all races are just one single racial soup,
>but there's no evidence that miscegenation was any worse then than it is
>today (though it is bad enough today).
The Bible says it was rampant.
>> Since I agree with the Holy Bible that he was a Benjaminite and thus a
>> descendant of Abraham, my choice is "yes".
>>Mordecai was not a Benjamite. Only his great-grandfather was. You cannot
>find a shred of Holy Scripture which proves otherwise.
We already did. You just don't believe it. But that is YOUR problem,
not ours.
>> No it doesn't. It commands that they not intermarry etc. But you
>> have acknowledged that they did so, and only intermittently put away
>> the foreigners. Well, sorry, but there were entire generations in
>> there between the intermingling and the putting away, and mongrels
>> stay mongrels. All of the people of Israel were mongrels by the time
>> of Nehemiah, and the only saving grace was for them to put away the
>> foreigners and rededicate themselves to the Lord.
>>Read it again. ALL of the mongrels of the foreign wives and the foreign
>wives were put away, en masse, just as we're getting ready to do yet again.
But that was too late, because the northern tribes had been foreign
wiving for hundreds of years and were no longer identifiable tribes.
Of the southern tribes, only the 100,000 odd who returned to Judea
took up the ways of the Lord, and it was not until 90 years later that
Ezra got them to put away their foreign wives. That is 4 generations
of miscegenation, after 3 generations in Babylon. Lots of time for
mongrelization. But so long as the men could establish a genealogy
(male bloodline) back to one of the tribes, or were married to a woman
who could establish a genealogy, they were allowed to remain. All
they needed was ONE chain of Israelite ancestors to remain a member of
a tribe. Notice how NONE of the genealogies of the Bible report more
than a single line of ancestors. That is what the Israelites
understood was necessary, and your interpretation of Deuteronomy
simply does no hold water, because that is NOT what the Bible says
that the Israelites did.
>Wrong. The Covenant With God was with the descendants of Abraham through
>Jacob, and nobody else. Not a single jew in the world is an Israelite,
>because they're the mongrel children of the enemies of the Israelites
>(Ashkenazis, Edomites, Moabites, Canaanites, Jebusites, Cushites, etc.).
The Edomites were brethren, not enemies. See Deuteronomy per above.
But the Jews were Israelites, and the Bible says that they were.
You are a liar speaking the words of your father the Prince of Liars.
>> >> Not relevant unless you can PROVE by a quote from the Bible that
>> >> the word "bastard" would apply in the case of the genealogy quoted in
>> >> Esther, even though there was no mention thereof, or of anyone being
>> >> cut off from the congregation of the LORD
>> >
>> >I see. You believe this Israelite law applied only sometimes, and that it
>> >didn't apply at other times?
>>>> You admitted that it did. Why else would the Israelites who returned
>> to Jerusalem who had violated the law, be allowed to *reestablish* the
>> congregation of the Lord.
>>You keep "forgetting" that they put away all the foreign wives and their
>bastard children. Why do you keep "forgetting" this?
But they did not put away the Jews. So the Jews were not foreign nor
bastards. QED.
>> The Israelites had STOPPED practicing the
>> law for a few generations, and thus if the law were upheld, then for
>> 10 generations there could be no Israelites. Yet the Jews rebuilt
>> Jerusalem, and are called Israelites. NOT 10 generations later, but
>> merely upon separating themselves from the strangers.
>>Why do you continue to ignore the Israelite law. By Israelite law, jews can
>never be Israelites.
By Israelite law, the Jews were Israelites. They were accepted into
the congregation of the Lord, and therefore they must have been,
Therefore you are wrong, and to repeat this wrongness is a LIE, spoken
on behalf of your father the Prince of Liars.
lojbab
