From johnh from goawayplease.com Tue Apr 1 04:42:36 2008 From: johnh from goawayplease.com (John Hasenkam) Date: Tue Apr 1 21:02:58 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Chimps Have a Theory of Mind? Message-ID: So now we find that chimps have a "theory of mind", this concept typically invoked when describing symptoms of autism(ie. autistics lack it). Does that mean there are autistic chimps? King Kong? Perhaps this is one for Joseph Campbell, he might have something to say about theory of mind. After all, he was the whiz kid in mythology. Who's Bad? Chimps Figure It Out By Observation Who's Bad? Chimps Figure It Out By Observation http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080326095411.htm ScienceDaily (Mar. 31, 2008) - Chimpanzees make judgments about the actions and dispositions of strangers by observing others' behavior and interactions in different situations. Specifically, chimpanzees show an ability to recognize certain behavioral traits and make assumptions about the presence or absence of these traits in strangers in similar situations thereafter. These findings are by Dr. Francys Subiaul - from the George Washington University in Washington DC - and his team. From JHasenkam from gmail.com Tue Apr 1 18:47:40 2008 From: JHasenkam from gmail.com (JHasenkam@gmail.com) Date: Tue Apr 1 21:03:07 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: A Study that claims to have discovered a genetic correlation to "Schizophrenia" References: Message-ID: <373f2d2d-7345-4aec-82d0-df36cd951120@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Mar 28, 11:20 am, "ken" wrote: > Earlier this 'evening', I heard a > report, by John Hamilton, on NPR's > =All Things Considered=. > > Even if the genetic material that was > analyzed was collected, say, from > the "Skin", be-cause [as I've reitera- > tively-discussed, over the 'years' here > in b.n, Immune-System function is a > form of Cognition that's under the com- > plete control of 'the' nervous system, No it isn't, I consider the immune and CNS to have a "tortured" interaction. > an epigenetic phenomenon would > still be instantiated, via Immune-Sys- > tem function Wrong, epigenetics involves changes in gene transcription(methylation, acetylation), not gene changes. It has bugger all to do with immune function but rather chromatin dynamics. [which is an absolute- > necessity if Immune-System function > is to remain able to Discern between > "Self" and "not-Self". Old model, never use it, very misleading. You haven't read enough literature. Look up Polly Mattzinger. Try "Danger Model" . See this site: http://focosi.immunesig.org/index2.html Brilliant immune website. From sufficient from havagoodday.org Wed Apr 2 01:08:17 2008 From: sufficient from havagoodday.org (ken) Date: Thu Apr 3 11:37:38 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: A Study that claims to have discovered a genetic correlation to "Schizophrenia" References: <373f2d2d-7345-4aec-82d0-df36cd951120@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: wrote in message news:373f2d2d-7345-4aec-82d0-df36cd951120@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com... | On Mar 28, 11:20 am, "ken" wrote: | > Earlier this 'evening', I heard a | > report, by John Hamilton, on NPR's | > =All Things Considered=. | > | | > Even if the genetic material that was | > analyzed was collected, say, from | > the "Skin", be-cause [as I've reitera- | > tively-discussed, over the 'years' here | > in b.n, Immune-System function is a | > form of Cognition that's under the com- | > plete control of 'the' nervous system, | | No it isn't, I consider the immune and CNS to have a "tortured" | interaction. Hi John. I Stand on what I've posted. | > an epigenetic phenomenon would | > still be instantiated, via Immune-Sys- | > tem function | | Wrong, epigenetics involves changes in gene transcription(methylation, | acetylation), not gene changes. It has bugger all to do with immune | function but rather chromatin dynamics. I discussed it, all the way down to just- energy, including "transcription", in my long-former posts in which I Demonstrat- ed how and why activation of 'the genome' is Rigorously-Coupled to experience via TD E/I-minimization-governed 3D-Energy- dynamics [3D-E.] | [which is an absolute- | > necessity if Immune-System function | > is to remain able to Discern between | > "Self" and "not-Self". | | Old model, never use it, very misleading. You haven't read enough | literature. Look up Polly Mattzinger. Try "Danger Model" . See this | site: | | http://focosi.immunesig.org/index2.html | | Brilliant immune website. I cannot allow myself to go on the web, so I don't know what the link you've cited has to say, but I 'pre- sume' that a "Danger Model" is just a 'transformation' of "relative- TD E/I" as it's been discussed in AoK all along. I no longer go to 'the' Library because, when I do, most of what I See, when I do, are instances of the Same-Stuff -- papers in which the 3D-E of "relative- TD E/I" -- the stuff I've been discussing online for 20 'years', and offline for 30 'years' -- are 'transformed' -- with nary a Footnote. It's too-'painful'. So, I Stand on what I've posted. As in, "The Genome", not 'the genome'. "The Genome" as "whole-body", and how and why it's all Integrated with respect to the 'external'-experiential- 3D-E that Individuals experience. Including, BTW, the disordered-3D-E that are instantiated 'within' 'the' "body" by disease processes. I understand -- and stated that I un- derstand -- that what I've been dis- cussing is not "the standard view". Same as I've been doing in every- thing I've ever discussed here in b.n, or elsewhere. Which is the only reason why I dis- cuss anything I discuss. I've written Testable-stuff into my discussions in this thread [as I always try to do]. When it's Tested -- if it's Tested -- what I've written will, in- General, be Verified. I've been trying, all along, to show folks how, and why, such "Prediction" can be done -- explicitly-stating that that was what I was doing in my pri- or posts in this thread -- even though I've not gotten past the 1% 'point'. How else can one teach the 99%? Not use it just because no one else understands it yet? 'restrict' my 'movement' to only what folks already 'agree'-upon? Sorry, I don't 'wear' that 'straitjacket' :-] Get 'beaten'-on 'all the time' for no other 'reason' than that I don't. 'clubs' 'love' their 'straitjackets'. "I'm used to it." [A. Lincoln] Cheers, John. ken [k. p. collins] From k.m.jasmin from brighton.ac.uk Fri Apr 4 09:48:07 2008 From: k.m.jasmin from brighton.ac.uk (Kyle Jasmin) Date: Fri Apr 4 10:27:42 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] EXTENDED DEADLINE: 2nd UK POSTGRAD CONF IN COGNITIVE LINGUISTICS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <501FD0C3-CF77-476A-8D59-4DAA1C428310@brighton.ac.uk> (apologies for cross-postings) ***EXTENDED DEADLINE: 2nd UK POSTGRADUATE CONFERENCE IN COGNITIVE LINGUISTICS *** ABSTRACTS DUE 9 APRIL 08 CALL FOR PAPERS 2nd UK Postgraduate Conference in COGNITIVE LINGUISTICS University of Brighton Brighton, UK 8th of August, 2008 Website: www.languageandcognition.net/pgccl/ Affiliated with the international conference on Language, Communication and Cognition, running the 4th ? 7th of August, 2008. (www.languageandcognition.n et for details.) The 2nd UK Postgraduate Conference in Cognitive Linguistics provides a forum for postgraduate students working within Cognitive Linguistics, language and cognition, and related areas, to share and discuss their individual research, current methodologies and frameworks, and future directions of study. Empirical, theoretical, methodological abstracts relating to the following topics are welcome: - Language and communication - Language and cognition - Metaphor - Grammar and conceptualisation - Knowledge structure - Applied cognitive linguistics - Cognitive semantics - Related areas of research Keynote speakers Dr Ewa D?browska, University of Sheffield, England, Vice President of the UK Cognitive Linguistics Association, Editor of Cognitive Linguistics journal. ?Empirical Investigations of the Cognitive Reality of Cognitive Grammar? Prof Vyvyan Evans, University of Brighton, England, President of the UK Cognitive Linguistics Association. ?LCCM Theory: Assumptions, Antecedents and Architecture? Workshop chair Dr Daniel Casasanto, Stanford University, USA. Editor of Language and Cognition an interdisciplinary journal of language and cognitive science (2009 launch). ?From Ideas to Experiments? Submission of abstracts Submissions are solicited for the three parallel sessions and the poster session. - Abstracts should not exceed 500 words?references are excluded from this count. - Abstracts should clearly indicate a presentation title. - Abstracts should be anonymous for purposes of blind review. - Abstracts should be formatted as Word, RTF or PDF documents. - Abstracts should be submitted electronically to UKPGCCL@gmail.com. - Please include the following information in the body of your email: title and name of author(s) affiliation email address for correspondence presentation title 3-5 keywords preference for presentation or poster session. Please state in the subject line of your email that this is an abstract submission, i.e., ?Abstract Submission: Name(s)? EXTENDED ABSTRACT DEADLINE: 9th of April, 2008 For full details please consult the conference website: http://www.languageandcognition.net/pgccl Organisers The conference is organised by Andrea Morgado De Matos and Kyle Jasmin. From gzuckier from snail-mail.net Fri Apr 4 13:14:31 2008 From: gzuckier from snail-mail.net (z) Date: Fri Apr 4 22:12:38 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: Chimps Have a Theory of Mind? References: Message-ID: On Apr 1, 5:42?am, "John Hasenkam" wrote: > So now we find that chimps have a "theory of mind", this concept typically > invoked when describing symptoms of autism(ie. autistics lack it). Does that > mean there are autistic chimps? King Kong? > > Perhaps this is one for Joseph Campbell, he might have something to say > about theory of mind. After all, he was the whiz kid in mythology. > > Who's Bad? Chimps Figure It Out By Observation > > Who's Bad? Chimps Figure It Out By Observation > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080326095411.htm > > ScienceDaily (Mar. 31, 2008) - Chimpanzees make judgments about the actions > and dispositions of strangers by observing others' behavior and interactions > in different situations. Specifically, chimpanzees show an ability to > recognize certain behavioral traits and make assumptions about the presence > or absence of these traits in strangers in similar situations thereafter. > These findings are by Dr. Francys Subiaul - from the George Washington > University in Washington DC - and his team. hmm. this is one of those things where i don't know whether to say, in a know it all sarcastic fashion, 'gee, you mean that evolution might find it advantageous to be able to predict the behavior of others in a general way?' or 'gee, you mean that the creatures most closely related to us have similar abilities for things which are strongly advantageous evolutionarily?' From gmsizemore2 from yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 15:31:30 2008 From: gmsizemore2 from yahoo.com (Glen M. Sizemore) Date: Fri Apr 4 22:12:42 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: Chimps Have a Theory of Mind? References: Message-ID: <47f6901e$0$11982$ed362ca5@nr2.newsreader.com> "z" wrote in message news:d37cbd28-fbe3-4195-813f-c0a57b4acb62@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... On Apr 1, 5:42 am, "John Hasenkam" wrote: > So now we find that chimps have a "theory of mind", this concept typically > invoked when describing symptoms of autism(ie. autistics lack it). Does > that > mean there are autistic chimps? King Kong? > > Perhaps this is one for Joseph Campbell, he might have something to say > about theory of mind. After all, he was the whiz kid in mythology. > > Who's Bad? Chimps Figure It Out By Observation > > Who's Bad? Chimps Figure It Out By Observation > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080326095411.htm > > ScienceDaily (Mar. 31, 2008) - Chimpanzees make judgments about the > actions > and dispositions of strangers by observing others' behavior and > interactions > in different situations. Specifically, chimpanzees show an ability to > recognize certain behavioral traits and make assumptions about the > presence > or absence of these traits in strangers in similar situations thereafter. > These findings are by Dr. Francys Subiaul - from the George Washington > University in Washington DC - and his team. GZ: hmm. this is one of those things where i don't know whether to say, in a know it all sarcastic fashion, 'gee, you mean that evolution might find it advantageous to be able to predict the behavior of others in a general way?' or 'gee, you mean that the creatures most closely related to us have similar abilities for things which are strongly advantageous evolutionarily?' GS: Or perhaps you should say "What sort of dimwit is so careless with language that they claim that chimps have a theory of anything? " The answer is, unfortunately, all of cognitive "science." Iknow a bunch of rats that press levers - do they have a theory? What is gained by such insipid nonsense? Oh, BTW, what makes it necessarily the domain strictly of evolution? Are there any ontogenic histories necessary? Or if one witnesses any kind of behavior does one just automatically point to evolution? An alternative notion is that evolution produced more-or-less general learning mechanisms. So, while true that evolution is ALWAYS involved in behavior, it is probably not true that there is a "module" for every kind of behavior that can be distinguished as evolutionary psychology seems to indicate. From gzuckier from snail-mail.net Mon Apr 7 10:44:13 2008 From: gzuckier from snail-mail.net (z) Date: Mon Apr 7 12:32:50 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: Chimps Have a Theory of Mind? References: <47f6901e$0$11982$ed362ca5@nr2.newsreader.com> Message-ID: <43a876e0-758c-475b-be11-b686641297cd@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Apr 4, 4:31?pm, "Glen M. Sizemore" wrote: > "z" wrote in message > > news:d37cbd28-fbe3-4195-813f-c0a57b4acb62@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > On Apr 1, 5:42 am, "John Hasenkam" wrote: > > > > > > > So now we find that chimps have a "theory of mind", this concept typically > > invoked when describing symptoms of autism(ie. autistics lack it). Does > > that > > mean there are autistic chimps? King Kong? > > > Perhaps this is one for Joseph Campbell, he might have something to say > > about theory of mind. After all, he was the whiz kid in mythology. > > > Who's Bad? Chimps Figure It Out By Observation > > > Who's Bad? Chimps Figure It Out By Observation > > >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080326095411.htm > > > ScienceDaily (Mar. 31, 2008) - Chimpanzees make judgments about the > > actions > > and dispositions of strangers by observing others' behavior and > > interactions > > in different situations. Specifically, chimpanzees show an ability to > > recognize certain behavioral traits and make assumptions about the > > presence > > or absence of these traits in strangers in similar situations thereafter. > > These findings are by Dr. Francys Subiaul - from the George Washington > > University in Washington DC - and his team. > > GZ: hmm. this is one of those things where i don't know whether to say, in > a know it all sarcastic fashion, 'gee, you mean that evolution might > find it advantageous to be able to predict the behavior of others in a > general way?' or 'gee, you mean that the creatures most closely > related to us have similar abilities for things which are strongly > advantageous evolutionarily?' > > GS: Or perhaps you should say "What sort of dimwit is so careless with > language that they claim that chimps have a theory of anything? " The answer > is, unfortunately, all of cognitive "science." Iknow a bunch of rats that > press levers - do they have a theory? What is gained by such insipid > nonsense? Oh, BTW, what makes it necessarily the domain strictly of > evolution? Are there any ontogenic histories necessary? Or if one witnesses > any kind of behavior does one just automatically point to evolution? An > alternative notion is that evolution produced more-or-less general learning > mechanisms. So, while true that evolution is ALWAYS involved in behavior, it > is probably not true that there is a "module" for every kind of behavior > that can be distinguished as evolutionary psychology seems to indicate.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - well, that's where Skinner was coming from, of course. what is the point of hypothetical constructs inside the black box of an organism when all that can be seen/measured is stimulus and response? what advantage is there of saying "lack of food generates a hunger drive that initiates a feeding response which is manifested as feeding behavior" over saying "lack of food causes feeding behavior"? From pranavpeshwe from gmail.com Tue Apr 8 12:55:08 2008 From: pranavpeshwe from gmail.com (Pranav Peshwe) Date: Tue Apr 8 15:26:28 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Neuroscientific basis for confidence ? Message-ID: <3a640350-77a3-41b2-be54-98ff07906b49@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com> Hi everyone, Has there been established any neuroscientific basis for (the feeling of) confidence or lack of it in a human ? What makes an individual feel confident/diffident in a given situation ? Are any particular class of neurotransmitters primarily responsible for inducing the feeling of confidence ? Any pointers/links would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance. Corrections welcome... Best regards, Pranav --------------------------------------------------------------- Absence is to love what wind is to fire; it extinguishes the small, but enkindles the great. From gmsizemore2 from yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 08:56:26 2008 From: gmsizemore2 from yahoo.com (Glen M. Sizemore) Date: Sun Apr 13 23:16:29 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: Chimps Have a Theory of Mind? References: <47f6901e$0$11982$ed362ca5@nr2.newsreader.com> <43a876e0-758c-475b-be11-b686641297cd@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <48021109$0$7544$ed362ca5@nr2.newsreader.com> "z" wrote in message news:43a876e0-758c-475b-be11-b686641297cd@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com... On Apr 4, 4:31 pm, "Glen M. Sizemore" wrote: > "z" wrote in message > > news:d37cbd28-fbe3-4195-813f-c0a57b4acb62@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > On Apr 1, 5:42 am, "John Hasenkam" wrote: > > > > > > > So now we find that chimps have a "theory of mind", this concept > > typically > > invoked when describing symptoms of autism(ie. autistics lack it). Does > > that > > mean there are autistic chimps? King Kong? > > > Perhaps this is one for Joseph Campbell, he might have something to say > > about theory of mind. After all, he was the whiz kid in mythology. > > > Who's Bad? Chimps Figure It Out By Observation > > > Who's Bad? Chimps Figure It Out By Observation > > >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080326095411.htm > > > ScienceDaily (Mar. 31, 2008) - Chimpanzees make judgments about the > > actions > > and dispositions of strangers by observing others' behavior and > > interactions > > in different situations. Specifically, chimpanzees show an ability to > > recognize certain behavioral traits and make assumptions about the > > presence > > or absence of these traits in strangers in similar situations > > thereafter. > > These findings are by Dr. Francys Subiaul - from the George Washington > > University in Washington DC - and his team. > > GZ: hmm. this is one of those things where i don't know whether to say, in > a know it all sarcastic fashion, 'gee, you mean that evolution might > find it advantageous to be able to predict the behavior of others in a > general way?' or 'gee, you mean that the creatures most closely > related to us have similar abilities for things which are strongly > advantageous evolutionarily?' > > GS: Or perhaps you should say "What sort of dimwit is so careless with > language that they claim that chimps have a theory of anything? " The > answer > is, unfortunately, all of cognitive "science." Iknow a bunch of rats that > press levers - do they have a theory? What is gained by such insipid > nonsense? Oh, BTW, what makes it necessarily the domain strictly of > evolution? Are there any ontogenic histories necessary? Or if one > witnesses > any kind of behavior does one just automatically point to evolution? An > alternative notion is that evolution produced more-or-less general > learning > mechanisms. So, while true that evolution is ALWAYS involved in behavior, > it > is probably not true that there is a "module" for every kind of behavior > that can be distinguished as evolutionary psychology seems to indicate.- > Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Z: well, that's where Skinner was coming from, of course. what is the point of hypothetical constructs inside the black box of an organism when all that can be seen/measured is stimulus and response? GS: No, I'm afraid you are incorrect. Skinner's and others' point was more that hypothetical constructs should be avoided where the ONLY evidence for the alleged existence of a a thing is the very behavior that it is said to explain. One way to look at this is that the name of the hypothetical construct bears, to the observations it is said to explain, the exact same relationship that, say, the word "chair" bears to chairs. We do not say, generally, that the word chair is evidence of "chairness." No, chair is simply a name for a thing, exactly as mental terms are names for behavioral observations. Secondly, your "...all that can be seen/measured is stimulus and response" is as sophomoric a description as one can find. Z: what advantage is there of saying "lack of food generates a hunger drive that initiates a feeding response which is manifested as feeding behavior" over saying "lack of food causes feeding behavior"? GS: Indeed. The latter is better because it focuses only on the known cause. The former does to, but it is an easy step to eliminate the reference to the observable, manipulable cause - the food deprivation - and become fixated upon the explanatory fiction. Further, a focus on the latter does not preclude an analysis of the physiology that underlies the behavioral effect. When the physiology is all but unobserved, talk about some physiological drive says nothing more than that the behavioral observation (i.e., food-deprivation leads to eating) is mediated physiologically. In the case of nonsense like "theories of mind," the same thing prevails. There are the observations of the chimp's behavior, and there is the name given it. From bruno.saubamea from univ-paris5.fr Sun Apr 13 11:41:01 2008 From: bruno.saubamea from univ-paris5.fr (=?Windows-1252?Q?Bruno_Saubam=E9a?=) Date: Sun Apr 13 23:16:36 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] TOPRO3 DNA staining Message-ID: <008a01c89d85$2889f480$75d714ac@SCICMBruno> Hi everyone, I'm new on this forum and here is my first question. Do you have = experience with TOPRO3. I commonly use it to stain DNA for confocal = imaging and it compares well to TOTO3 or IP for example because it does = not stain RNA and therefore you don't need to go through RNAse = treatment. The problem is that the staining intensity of the nucleus can = show variations from one experiment to the other. I feel that TOPRO3 = might be rather fragile and staining efficiency might be affected after = a few months storage of TOPRO3 at -20=B0C even if you take care to avoid = repeted freeze/thaw. What is your experience? Also what is the best = fixative for DNA staining (I commonly use PFA 4%)? Thank You Bruno=20 Bruno SAUBAMEA EA 3621 & Service Commun d'Imagerie Cellulaire et Mol=E9culaire Facult=E9 des Sciences Pharmaceutiques et Biologiques Universit=E9 Paris Descartes 4, avenue de l'Observatoire 75006 PARIS tel : 01.53.73.97.13 fax : 01.53.73.99.09From johnh from goawayplease.com Sun Apr 13 20:19:19 2008 From: johnh from goawayplease.com (John Hasenkam) Date: Sun Apr 13 23:16:49 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Brain makes decisions before you even know it Message-ID: <8IydnZJ65PmSLp_VnZ2dnUVZ_oaonZ2d@westnet.com.au> In a way not surprising but I find the 10 sec delay suspicious. It is also a simple decision making process(left or right button). I don't think that is representative of most decision making processes. http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision. ... From forbisgaryg from msn.com Sun Apr 13 21:03:07 2008 From: forbisgaryg from msn.com (forbisgaryg@msn.com) Date: Sun Apr 13 23:16:56 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: Brain makes decisions before you even know it References: <8IydnZJ65PmSLp_VnZ2dnUVZ_oaonZ2d@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Apr 13, 6:19?pm, "John Hasenkam" wrote: > In a way not surprising but I find the 10 sec delay suspicious. It is also a > simple decision making process(left or right button). I don't think that is > representative of most decision making processes. > > http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html > > Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, > according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a > decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before > they themselves were even aware of having made a decision. Yeah, 10 seconds is surpizing. The interesting part is that if consciousness plays a part in certain decision making it isn't direct. From johnh from goawayplease.com Sat Apr 19 01:59:13 2008 From: johnh from goawayplease.com (John Hasenkam) Date: Sat Apr 19 13:27:23 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought Message-ID: <9oidnbzLuKh4CpTVnZ2dnUVZ_qelnZ2d@westnet.com.au> Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070227105247.htm The brain appears to process information more chaotically than has long been assumed. This is demonstrated by a new study conducted by scientists at the University of Bonn. The passing on of information from neuron to neuron does not, they show, occur exclusively at the synapses, i.e. the junctions between the nerve cell extensions. Rather, it seems that the neurons release their chemical messengers along the entire length of these extensions and, in this way, excite the neighbouring cells. ... From jalegris from sympatico.ca Sat Apr 19 07:17:41 2008 From: jalegris from sympatico.ca (J.A.Legris) Date: Sat Apr 19 13:27:28 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought References: <9oidnbzLuKh4CpTVnZ2dnUVZ_qelnZ2d@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <2e34d95a-eaf9-4a81-967f-581bea41362e@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Apr 19, 2:59=A0am, "John Hasenkam" wrote: > Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070227105247.htm > > The brain appears to process information more chaotically than has long be= en > assumed. This is demonstrated by a new study conducted by scientists at th= e > University of Bonn. The passing on of information from neuron to neuron do= es > not, they show, occur exclusively at the synapses, i.e. the junctions > between the nerve cell extensions. Rather, it seems that the neurons relea= se > their chemical messengers along the entire length of these extensions and,= > in this way, excite the neighbouring cells. > ... K=E1rad=F3ttir, R., Hamilton, N.B., Bakiri, Y & Attwell, D. Spiking and nonspiking classes of oligodendrocyte precursor glia in CNS white matter. Nature Neuroscience 11, 450 - 456 (2008). Kukley, M., Capetillo-Zarate, E. & Dietrich, D. Vesicular release of glutamate from axons in white matter. Nat. Neurosci. 10, 311=96320 (2007). Ziskin, J.L., Nishiyama, A., Rubio, M., Fukaya, M. & Bergles, D.E. Vesicular release of glutamate from unmyelinated axons in white matter. Nat. Neurosci. 10, 321=96330 (2007). From omegazero2003 from yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 09:29:18 2008 From: omegazero2003 from yahoo.com (Alpha) Date: Sat Apr 19 13:27:40 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought References: <9oidnbzLuKh4CpTVnZ2dnUVZ_qelnZ2d@westnet.com.au> <2e34d95a-eaf9-4a81-967f-581bea41362e@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <2978c9ed-6894-43cc-a7ce-6df6ec9faab5@n14g2000pri.googlegroups.com> On Apr 19, 5:17=A0am, "J.A.Legris" wrote: > On Apr 19, 2:59=A0am, "John Hasenkam" wrote: > > > Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought > > >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070227105247.htm > > > The brain appears to process information more chaotically than has long = been > > assumed. This is demonstrated by a new study conducted by scientists at = the > > University of Bonn. The passing on of information from neuron to neuron = does > > not, they show, occur exclusively at the synapses, i.e. the junctions > > between the nerve cell extensions. Rather, it seems that the neurons rel= ease > > their chemical messengers along the entire length of these extensions an= d, > > in this way, excite the neighbouring cells. > > ... > > K=E1rad=F3ttir, R., Hamilton, N.B., Bakiri, Y & Attwell, D. Spiking and > nonspiking classes of oligodendrocyte precursor glia in CNS white > matter. Nature Neuroscience 11, 450 - 456 (2008). > > Kukley, M., Capetillo-Zarate, E. & Dietrich, D. Vesicular release of > glutamate from axons in white matter. Nat. Neurosci. 10, 311=96320 > (2007). > > Ziskin, J.L., Nishiyama, A., Rubio, M., Fukaya, M. & Bergles, D.E. > Vesicular release of glutamate from unmyelinated axons in white > matter. Nat. Neurosci. 10, 321=96330 (2007). Indeed! It is the soup (as I have been saying) that also contributes to "information processing"; not only the extracellular soup, but the soup/structures/functions within each neuron as well; much of which, it is presumed, has chaotic aspects, albeit with some emergent goals that seem to lend themselves to autopoiesis. From feedbackdroid from yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 10:14:14 2008 From: feedbackdroid from yahoo.com (feedbackdroid) Date: Sat Apr 19 13:27:45 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought References: <9oidnbzLuKh4CpTVnZ2dnUVZ_qelnZ2d@westnet.com.au> <2e34d95a-eaf9-4a81-967f-581bea41362e@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> <2978c9ed-6894-43cc-a7ce-6df6ec9faab5@n14g2000pri.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: On Apr 19, 8:29?am, Alpha wrote: > > Indeed! ?It is the soup (as I have been saying) that also contributes > to "information processing"; not only the extracellular soup, but the > soup/structures/functions within each neuron as well; much of which, > it is presumed, has chaotic aspects, albeit with some emergent goals > that seem to lend themselves to autopoiesis.- Hide quoted text - > > The system is anatomically more complex than commonly thought - DOH, the more we learn, the less we realize we understand. However, it's a little unclear why the author of the article chose to use the word "chaotic". More conflation of ideas, I think. From johnh from goawayplease.com Sat Apr 19 10:46:10 2008 From: johnh from goawayplease.com (John Hasenkam) Date: Sat Apr 19 13:27:49 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought References: <9oidnbzLuKh4CpTVnZ2dnUVZ_qelnZ2d@westnet.com.au> <2e34d95a-eaf9-4a81-967f-581bea41362e@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> <2978c9ed-6894-43cc-a7ce-6df6ec9faab5@n14g2000pri.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: "feedbackdroid" wrote in message news:c9dedcf8-ff49-4562-b64f-b61b47f70176@n1g2000prb.googlegroups.com... On Apr 19, 8:29 am, Alpha wrote: > > Indeed! It is the soup (as I have been saying) that also contributes > to "information processing"; not only the extracellular soup, but the > soup/structures/functions within each neuron as well; much of which, > it is presumed, has chaotic aspects, albeit with some emergent goals > that seem to lend themselves to autopoiesis.- Hide quoted text - > > The system is anatomically more complex than commonly thought - DOH, the more we learn, the less we realize we understand. However, it's a little unclear why the author of the article chose to use the word "chaotic". More conflation of ideas, I think. --- I was interested in this because of concepts like "volume transmission"(in that regard the dynamics of nitric oxide is very interesting) and some material I had read a few years stating the existence of glutamate receptors on axons. The question is whether or not these axonal synapses and vesicles actually contribute towards function or are just "leftovers" from developmental processes. Thanks for the references Joe. From r_s_norman from _comcast.net Sat Apr 19 11:23:19 2008 From: r_s_norman from _comcast.net (r norman) Date: Sat Apr 19 13:27:54 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought References: <9oidnbzLuKh4CpTVnZ2dnUVZ_qelnZ2d@westnet.com.au> <2e34d95a-eaf9-4a81-967f-581bea41362e@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 05:17:41 -0700 (PDT), "J.A.Legris" wrote: >On Apr 19, 2:59?am, "John Hasenkam" wrote: >> Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought >> >> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070227105247.htm >> >> The brain appears to process information more chaotically than has long been >> assumed. This is demonstrated by a new study conducted by scientists at the >> University of Bonn. The passing on of information from neuron to neuron does >> not, they show, occur exclusively at the synapses, i.e. the junctions >> between the nerve cell extensions. Rather, it seems that the neurons release >> their chemical messengers along the entire length of these extensions and, >> in this way, excite the neighbouring cells. >> ... > > >K?rad?ttir, R., Hamilton, N.B., Bakiri, Y & Attwell, D. Spiking and >nonspiking classes of oligodendrocyte precursor glia in CNS white >matter. Nature Neuroscience 11, 450 - 456 (2008). > >Kukley, M., Capetillo-Zarate, E. & Dietrich, D. Vesicular release of >glutamate from axons in white matter. Nat. Neurosci. 10, 311?320 >(2007). > >Ziskin, J.L., Nishiyama, A., Rubio, M., Fukaya, M. & Bergles, D.E. >Vesicular release of glutamate from unmyelinated axons in white >matter. Nat. Neurosci. 10, 321?330 (2007). The paper referred to in the news release does not seem to be available at Nature Neuroscience yet. It is not clear what this means for myelinated neurons where information could not readily be transmitted in this fashion. Perhaps it is related to maintaining the myelination. In any event, many thanks for providing actual journal citations. I hate reading only news releases. From feedbackdroid from yahoo.com Sat Apr 19 11:39:53 2008 From: feedbackdroid from yahoo.com (feedbackdroid) Date: Sat Apr 19 13:28:00 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought References: <9oidnbzLuKh4CpTVnZ2dnUVZ_qelnZ2d@westnet.com.au> <2e34d95a-eaf9-4a81-967f-581bea41362e@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: On Apr 19, 10:23=A0am, r norman wrote: > On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 05:17:41 -0700 (PDT), "J.A.Legris" > > > > > > wrote: > >On Apr 19, 2:59=A0am, "John Hasenkam" wrote: > >> Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought > > >>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070227105247.htm > > >> The brain appears to process information more chaotically than has long= been > >> assumed. This is demonstrated by a new study conducted by scientists at= the > >> University of Bonn. The passing on of information from neuron to neuron= does > >> not, they show, occur exclusively at the synapses, i.e. the junctions > >> between the nerve cell extensions. Rather, it seems that the neurons re= lease > >> their chemical messengers along the entire length of these extensions a= nd, > >> in this way, excite the neighbouring cells. > >> ... > > >K=E1rad=F3ttir, R., Hamilton, N.B., Bakiri, Y & Attwell, D. Spiking and > >nonspiking classes of oligodendrocyte precursor glia in CNS white > >matter. Nature Neuroscience 11, 450 - 456 (2008). > > >Kukley, M., Capetillo-Zarate, E. & Dietrich, D. Vesicular release of > >glutamate from axons in white matter. Nat. Neurosci. 10, 311=96320 > >(2007). > > >Ziskin, J.L., Nishiyama, A., Rubio, M., Fukaya, M. & Bergles, D.E. > >Vesicular release of glutamate from unmyelinated axons in white > >matter. Nat. Neurosci. 10, 321=96330 (2007). > > The paper referred to in the news release does not =A0seem to be > available at Nature Neuroscience yet. =A0 It is not clear what this > means for myelinated neurons where information could not readily be > transmitted in this fashion. =A0Perhaps it is related to maintaining the > myelination. > > In any event, many thanks for providing actual journal citations. =A0I > hate reading only news releases. > =46rom the brief description, it looks like glutamate release is related to both development of myelination, and maintenance of same. Once the myelination has occurred, prior knowledge suggests the axons are roughly isolated from each other. All in all, it sounds like the phenomenon described might have minor influence on regular brain activity. From comtech.usa from gmail.com Sat Apr 19 21:17:03 2008 From: comtech.usa from gmail.com (iwannafly) Date: Sun Apr 20 12:50:50 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] simulation of neural spike chains from Point processes Message-ID: Hi all, I am looking for toolboxes that can handle simulation and/or solution of SDE with jumps, say levy processes, jump diffusion processes, etc. Could anybody give me some pointers to really good ones in R, (or Maple or Matlab)? I did google search myself and haven't found much...I would also like to simulate point processes with complex intensities, such as those with self-feedback stochastic intensities, such as those used in neural spike modeling and decoding... Please point me to some really good packages and popular ones so I can discuss with fellow users more conveniently... Thanks! From ron from u2ai.us Sun Apr 20 11:35:44 2008 From: ron from u2ai.us (Ronald C. Blue) Date: Sun Apr 20 12:50:57 2008 Subject: Fw: [Neuroscience] Re: Brain Works More Chaotically Than PreviouslyThought Message-ID: <6719BEA878924868B1F432A83959B0FB@RonPC> >The system is anatomically more complex than commonly thought - DOH, >the more we learn, the less we realize we understand. >However, it's a little unclear why the author of the article chose to >use the word "chaotic". More conflation of ideas, I think. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Using a child's wave machine filled with a blue wax and oil mixture with water floating on top to illustrate the "chaotic" relationships. You can put information into the "soup" of the wave machine in the form of highly complex three dimensional waves. If you add the height of the waves and the reverse for the water the information or power spectrum over the information in the wave machine is zero because it is a complex opponent-processing system. The system is said to be chaotic because it is non linear and can not be predicted using conventional methods. Chaotic does not mean it is not orderly or beyond comprehension, it just means at this time we do not have adequate tools to understand the relationships completely. Ron Blue http://u2ai.us Correlational Holographic Opponent Processing From joe from vrspace.org Mon Apr 21 08:28:28 2008 From: joe from vrspace.org (Josip Almasi) Date: Mon Apr 21 12:23:47 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought In-Reply-To: <9oidnbzLuKh4CpTVnZ2dnUVZ_qelnZ2d@westnet.com.au> References: <9oidnbzLuKh4CpTVnZ2dnUVZ_qelnZ2d@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: John Hasenkam wrote: > Brain Works More Chaotically Than Previously Thought > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070227105247.htm Well correct me if I'm wrong. Active axons work better, in more details: signaling axon releases glutamate, which stimulates oligodendrocytes to produce myelin, which envelopes axons and makes them conduct better. Seems elegant solution to grow envelope around a conducting cable;) Also sort of reinforcement feedback. As for the new thing, "We think, however, that on their way though the grey matter the axons probably release glutamate at other points apart from the synapses," Dietrich speculates. "Nerve cells and dendrites are closely packed together here. So the axon could not only excite the actual receptor but also numerous other nerve cells." it's quite interesting, could be involved in synchronous firing during pattern recognition etc. Regards... From christinelaura from hotmail.com Thu Apr 24 01:15:00 2008 From: christinelaura from hotmail.com (christinelaura@hotmail.com) Date: Thu Apr 24 11:43:38 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Technical question: dissociated cells Message-ID: <07060602-51f4-4be0-a683-ec8ce45cae11@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com> Hi, I'm wondering if anyone here has done electrophysiology on acutely dissociated neurons? I've found several methods in the literature and have had a couple of attempts with adult rat brain. The cells come out looking bright and round and alive, but unfortunately I can't make them stick to glass chips, with or without poly-D-lysine coating. I need them to stick to something in order to patch them. Any suggestions? From jalegris from sympatico.ca Sat Apr 26 17:42:28 2008 From: jalegris from sympatico.ca (J.A.Legris) Date: Sat Apr 26 19:21:21 2008 Subject: [Neuroscience] Re: Technical question: dissociated cells References: <07060602-51f4-4be0-a683-ec8ce45cae11@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2:15?am, christinela...@hotmail.com wrote: > Hi, I'm wondering if anyone here has done electrophysiology on acutely > dissociated neurons? I've found several methods in the literature and > have had a couple of attempts with adult rat brain. The cells come out > looking bright and round and alive, but unfortunately I can't make > them stick to glass chips, with or without poly-D-lysine coating. I > need them to stick to something in order to patch them. > > Any suggestions? How about a micropipette under low negative pressure. -- Joe