"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab at lojban.org> wrote in message
news:p1tmpukb5ar1hgqoetph19kon81rbh5p3h at 4ax.com...
> "John Knight" <jwknight at polbox.com> wrote:
> >> What do you mean by "disprove"? Can someone disprove that the World
> >> Almanac had certain numbers in it? No, because the numbers were in
> >> the Almanac. But Almanacs are not primary sources - they get their
> >> numbers from other sources.
> >And if those other sources were FLAWED, then what reason do you have to
> >believe their MODIFIED figures?
>> There are multiple independent sources used to determine the number of
> Holocaust deaths:
OK, Bob, let's look at that webpage and see who is lying about what
regarding the holocaust. I republish it in its entirety here.
Second World War (1937-45)
It's the most intensively studied event of the 20th Century, so the margin
of error is not quite a wide here as for most of the other wars and
oppressions on this page. Most historians agree that the death toll was
about 50 million (including wartime atrocities). If you don't believe me,
here's just a sampling of the books I have on hand:
Haywood: Atlas of World History (1997): 50M
Keegan, J., The Second World War (1989): 50M
Messenger, The Chronological Atlas of World War Two (1989): 50M
The Times Concise Atlas of World History (1988): 50M
In camps, from Fascist terror: 12.0M
>From hostilites, blockade, epidemics, hunger: 14.5M
>From bombing: 1.5M
Dictionary of Military History (1994): 41M
Kinder, The Anchor Atlas of World History (1978): 55M
Sivard, Ruth Leger, World Military and Social Expenditures 1986 (11th ed.):
38,351,000 (1939-45), not incl. 1.8M in Sino-Japanese War (1937-41)
Civilians, "actual byproduct of hostilities": 20M
Civilians, Sino-Japanese War: 15M
Hitler's murders: 17M
European War Dead (1939-45): 28,736,000
Sino-Japanese War Dead (1937-45): 7,140,000
Chinese Nationalist: 5,907,000
Allied Bombing: 796,000
Romanian domestic democide: 484,000
Chinese Communist: 250,000
Hungarian democide in Yugoslavia: 78,000
[TOTAL (1937-45): 84,609,000]
The MEDIAN of these estimates is 50M.
If we add up the country-by-country medians we get:
LEVEL 1: 47.35M
LEVEL 2: ca. 3.8M
LEVEL 3: ca. 0.25M
Who to Blame:
Most history books break their WW2 numbers down according to whether the
dead are military or civilian and which country they came from. Since I've
done that elsewhere, let's try to break it down by guilt. Here are various
estimates by various experts of the number of superfluous, non-military
deaths during the Second World War.
Extermination of the Jews:
Reitlinger, Gerald, The Final Solution (1953): between 4,194,200 and
4,851,200 (this number is accepted by Kinder, The Anchor Atlas of World
3,000,000 in death camps.
800,000 by dis./maln. in ghettos
Davies, Europe A History (1998): 5,571,300 (puts the minimum at 4,871,000
and the maximum at 6,271,500.)
MEDIAN: ca. 5.6M
Nuremberg indictment: 5,700,000 (accepted by Britannica)
Gutman, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990): 5,596,029 to 5,860,129
P. Johnson: 5,800,000
Wallechinsky: "nearly" 6,000,000
Soviet Prisoners of War killed:
12 March 1995 Times-Picayune: nearly 3.5M
Our Times: 3,300,000
Mazower, Dark Continent: 3M
Harper Collins Atlas of the Second World War: 3,000,000
Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1960): 2,000,000 dead and
1,000,000 never accounted for, presumed dead.
Mazower, Dark Continent: 200,000-500,000.
Ian Hancock, "Responses to the Romani Holocaust" in Is the Holocaust Unique?
(A. Rosenbaum, ed.) cites these:
US Holocaust Memorial Museum: 250,000
"several published estimates": >1,000,000
Pauwels and Bergier: 750,000
Financial Times (London): 500-750,000 in death camps and another million
Euthanasia of Handicapped:
Hugh G. Gallagher: 275,000, citing Breggin (in Century of Genocide, Samuel
Totten, ed., (1997))
Victims of Wehrmacht:
Acc2 historical exhibit curated by Hannes Heer: The common soldiers of the
Wehrmacht murdered 1.5M Jews, 3.3M POWs + 5-7M non-Jewish civilians (17 May
1995 Agence France Presse; 22 Feb. 1997 AP)
General political prisoners:
Mark Mazower, Dark Continent: Europe's Twentieth Century (1998): over one
million died in concentration camps, not counting those deliberately
targeted for extermination.
Rosenburg, The Haunted Land: 26,000 political death sentences passed by
Rummel: 20,946,000 democides
Urlanis: 15-16,000,000 (11-12M civilians + 3.9M POWs)
Our Times: 13,000,000 (6M Jews + 7M others)
Grenville: 10,000,000, including 2M children.
NOTE: These numbers only include outright murders, but keep in mind that
some 18M civilians and 17M soldiers died in the European War. That's
35,000,000 deaths which can probably be blamed on Hitler to one extent or
Everyone acknowledges that Stalin deported many million members of suspected
nationalities to Siberia during and immediately after the war. The biggest
variable is how many of these died.
Harff and Gurr:
Chechens, Ingushi, Karachai, Balkars, Kalmyks: 230,000 d. (1943-57)
Meskhierians, Crimean Tatars: 57,000 - 175,000 d. (1944-68)
Davies: 1,000,000 Volga Germans, Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, etc.
Axis POWs never returned:
Brzezinski: 1,000,000 total (incl. 357,000 Germans, 140,000 Poles)
Dictionary of 20C World History: 14,000 Polish officers systematically
killed. 4,500 bodies discovered by Germans.
30 July 2000 Sunday Telegraph [London]: 15,000 k.
Paul Johnson: 15,000 -- a third at Katyn, the rest in Sov. conc. camps.
Returning Soviet POWs killed after the war:
Harff and Gurr: 500,000 - 1,100,000 repatriated Soviet nationals killed
Harper Collins: 1,000,000 POWs
Davies: 5-6M deaths, screening of repatriates and inhabitants of ex-occupied
Total killed by Stalin during the war years:
Davies: 16-17,000,000 non-war-dead
Rummel: 18,157,000 democides
Although the number of civilian deaths in the Soviet Union during the war is
far from certain, the estimate of 7 million has gained wide acceptance, and
it is repeated by Keegan, Hammond, Anchor, Encarta and Britannica. Since
many of these deaths would have been caused by Nazi brutality or the simple
bad luck of war, as well Stalinist repression, it seems exceedingly
difficult to reconcile a total of 7 million civilian deaths with estimates
of 16-19 million deaths from Stalinist brutality during the war years.
Some recent demographic studies suggest that 26-27 million Soviet citizens
disappeared during WW2 (Davies), but this number has not been widely
accepted by mainstream historians.
My Estimate: Very roughly, I'd say that Stalin murdered 1M enemy POWs, 1M of
his own soldiers, and some 2-4M Soviet civilians during the War. These
numbers are consistant with Conquest's estimate of 10M killed by Stalin,
1939 to 1953, and they easily fit into the 7M civilian deaths, leaving room
for 1M Jews and several million others to be killed by the Nazis.
Nanking Massacre, 1937-38:
Iris Chang, The Rape of Nanking (1997) cites these:
Liu Fang-chu: 430,000
James Yin & Shi Young: 400,000
Sun Zhaiwei: 377,400 corpses disposed of
Wu Tien-wei: 340,000
District Court of Nanking: 300,000
International Military Tribunal of the Far East: 260,000
Fujiwara Akira: 200,000
John Rabe: 50- 60,000
Hata Ikuhiko: 38- 42,000
Spence, The Search for Modern China: 42,000.
P. Johnson: 200-300,000
Burma-Siam Railroad, worker deaths (1941-43)
Johnson: 16,000 POWs
Our Times: 50,000 Burmese civilians and 16,000 Allied POWs
Grenville: 100,000 Asians and 16,000 Europeans
East Timor: 70,000 died under Japanese occupation (James Dunn, in Century of
Genocide, Samuel Totten, ed., (1997))
Singapore: 5,000 Chinese massacred (Grenville)
Rummel blames the Japanese for 5,964,000 democides
POWs: 539,000 (400,000 Chinese)
Forced Labor: 1,010,000 (142,000 Chinese)
Massacres: 3,608,000 (2,850,000 Chinese)
Bombing/CB warfare: 558,000 (all Chinese)
Imposed Famine: 250,000 (none in China)
Rummel also estimates that General/Prime Minister Tojo Hideki was
responsible for a lifetime total of 3,990,000 democides.
My estimate is that 11M civilians and 4.5M soldiers died in the
Asian/Pacific War. That's 15,500,000 deaths which can probably be blamed on
the Japanese to one extent or another.
Bombing of Germany: 400,000 (Hammond); 410,000 (Rummel, 100% democidal);
593,000 (Keegan; also Grenville citing "official Germany"); 600,000 (P.
Bombing of Japan:
Conventional: 260,000 (Keegan, P. Johnson)
Nuclear: 103,000 died outright (Keegan); 130,000 outright
(Messenger);120,000 outright, 140,000 later (Our Times); 175,000 outright,
100,000 later (P. Johnson)
Total: 363,000 (Keegan, not including post-war radiation sickness); 374,000
(Rummel, incl. 337,000 democidal); 435,000 (P. Johnson); 500,000 (Harper
Collins Atlas of the Second World War)
Bombing of Romania & Hungary: 50,000 (Rummel)
Mistreatment of Axis POWs [I myself don't find these accusations credible,
but FWIW, here they are.]
James Bacque, Other Losses (1989) made the first accusation that Americans
deliberately starved German POWs, killing about a million.
Bacque's 2nd book, Crimes & Mercies, expands the body count to 9.3-13.7M
Germans killed by the Allies after the end of the war, incl. some 2.1-6.0M
civilians who died being expelled from the East.
Stephen Ambrose dismisses these claims as sloppy research. He explains that
the total number of German POWs who died from all causes in US hands was
56,000 out of some 5M held. [see also
Mussolini (r. 1922-1943)
Mark Mazower, Dark Continent: Europe's Twentieth Century (1998): total of 29
death sentences passed on political prisoners before 1939.
Rummel, democides by Fascist govt. of Italy:
Ethiopia and Libya: 200,000 [before WW2]
Italians, domestically: 250
2 March 1999 Agence France Presse
Number killed in Croatian-run death camp at Jasenovac
Acc2 Croatian press: 85,000
Official Yugoslav estimate: 700,000
Simon Wiesenthal Centre: 500,000
Alex Dragnic, Serbs & Croats (1992)
k. by Ustase
Serbs: est. range 300,000 to 1,000,000, but 500-700,000 is "generally
Massacre by Germans, Oct. 1941: 4-7,000
John Lampe, Yugoslavia as History (1995)
300,000 Serbs k. by Ustasha
26,000 Jews k. by Ustasha
9,000 Slovenes executed by Italians, summer 1941
Killed by Tito, 1945-46: 100,000
Noel Malcolm, Bosnia: a Short History (1994)
Muslims k. by Chetniks in Foca-Cajnice:
Aug. 1942: 2,000
Feb. 1943: 9,000
Killed by Tito, 1945-46: 250,000 in shootings, camps and marches.
Mazower, Dark Continent
Serbs k. by Ustase: at least 334,000.
Collaborators k. by Tito, postwar: up to 60,000
9 July 1990 NY Times
Communist partisans shot 70-100,000 without trial within weeks of the war's
Anti-Communist emigres claim ca. 500,000 killed ("... exaggerations, said
Darko Bekic, a historian in Zagreb...")
"Total of 1,700,000 Yugoslavs were killed, both in combat and in atrocities
and reprisals by and against civilians"
Rummel, democides by perpetrator:
Axis occupying nations: 718,000
Chetnik partisans: 100,000
Communists: 100,000 as partisans, 500,000 shortly after coming to power
Ustashi government of Croatia: 655,000
TOTAL: 2,073,000 democides (also 555,000 battle deaths, for a grand total of
Fred Singleton, Twentieth-Century Yugoslavia (1976)
350,000 Serbs k. by Ustasha
Marcus Tanner, Croatia: a Nation Forged in War
Bleiburg massacre: est. range from 30,000 to 200,000 returning POWs k. by
Communists (The upper number being favored by Croat nationalists)
acc2 Communist govt: 600,000 k. in Jasenovas
acc2 Banac 120,000 k. in all camps
acc2 "others": 80,000 k. in all camps
acc2 Pres. Tudjman: 60,000 k. in all camps
Total war deaths (according to one study)
incl. 215,000 in Nazi and Ustase camps
Johan Wüscht, Population Losses in Yugoslavia during World War Two (1963),
estimates a total population shortfall of 2,210,000 in the 1948 census.
After accounting for emmigration (700,000) and a drop in births (423,000),
he reckons the total number of deaths caused by the war and its aftermath to
be 1,100,000. He also points out that adding up all the accusations of
atrocities commited during the war far exceeds this calculated number of
deaths, so one of them is wrong.
ANALYSIS: Among those events with several estimates, the medians are ...
Serbs k. by Ustashe: 275,000
Postwar executions (and related deaths) by Communists: 175,000
Rummel: 484,000 genocides under kings Carol & Michael (1938-48) incl.
Robert Kaplan, Balkan Ghosts (1993): 185,000 Jews from Bessarabia and
Moldovia murdered in "the only non-German-run extermination camp in Europe".
Collaborators killed after liberation:
Mark Mazower, Dark Continent: 9-10,000
Our Times: 9,000 summarily, 700 after trial.
Other Western Nations, postwar purges:
Mark Mazower, Dark Continent
Netherlands: 40 executions
Norway: 25 executions
Post-War Expulsion of Germans from East Europe (1945-47)
Died being expelled from Poland:
Keegan, John, The Second World War (1989): 1,250,000
Kurt Glaser and Stephan Possony, Victims of Politics (1979): 1,225,000
Died, from Czechoslovakia:
Glaser & Possony: 267,000
Kinder, Anchor Atlas of World History: 3,000,000
Britannica: 2,384,000 (This covers the years 1944-46, and it includes
Germans who died fleeing while the war was still raging.)
Glaser & Possony: 2,111,000 (This includes 619,000 from "elsewhere" not
Keegan: 2,100,000 (This includes 600,000 from "elsewhere" not listed above;
it does not include some 1,000,000 Germans who (by Keegan's estimate) died
fleeing while the war was still raging.)
First of all, the Jews can't even get their figures straight about how many
of their own kind died, and who's to blame for it. Second of all, millions
more Christians died in WW2 than Jews did, according to YOUR listed website.
So where's your holocaust, bub? Is it with your Bubbie at the Stone Avenue
Talmud Torah? Is the Cantor howling its litany during the Days of Awe, or
is it largely chanted as mantra during Tisha B'Av?
How does it feel to taste your heel?
Richard C. August