Cindy made some good points here, but I have to comment because some of it is just a
little too smug for my taste. I never considered the present discussion whining!
>Paula recently posted the hypothetical scenario enclosed below. Please
>don't take this as a person attack Paula, but it was the straw that broke
>the camels back.
>>I am completely sick of hearing (reading) all the whining that goes on
>about "poor us" having to try to manuever around this shark pond of egos
>and politics. Well, you chose it! If you are in pursuit of knowledge and
>truely interested in what you are doing then who cares what others think!
>BUT, if you are in pursuit of academic credentials and a "good" job then,
>welcome to the game. I know you are going to say..." but I NEED a job to
>survive". Yes, you do, but does it NEED to be as a professor at a
>prestigous university? What about a small university or college. What
>about a community college?
When did you get your position. My husband took one a few years ago at a small teaching
university (teaches 3 courses a term and mentors students in a masters program). They
gave him no start-up funds, but part of his tenure decision is the number of outside
grants he gets and his pub list (of course, the university only added this to the tenure
decision in the last few years-it only applies to "new" faculty-the 3 they've hired in
the last 5 years. The other 15, who are all tenured or near retirement (7 are 65 or
older) did not have this requirtement. Just how does one get "world-class, outside
funded research" without giving start up funds or allowing one to buy out of a VERY
heavy teaching load (in his department, it's chair's discretion, and it's NEVER done for
untenured faculty). You don't, but there are SOOO many starving post-docs out there
that you can use faculty up and then deny tenure. All the new faculty hired by the
institution in question are looking for jobs again elsewhere. But it's all more of the
same. Now, you may say, "But he chose this job". Well, yes, but at the time it was the
only offer after a long 2 years of applications, his post doc grant was running out, and
quite frankly, anyone who reads the back pages of Science will be hard pressed to find
even a community college that doesn't specify post-doctoral expereience, never mind
ability to attract outside funding. If we're talking about the straw that breaks the
camels back, it's the "gypsy faculty" attitude that many small colleges have to adapt to
stay alive in the present economy.
What about contract work? What about a mirad of
>other choices? You can complain all day that you "shouldn't have to choose
>between these things" and maybe that's true. If you choose to stay in that
>system and work for change from within for yourself and others, then great,
>you have my support and likely the support of others. But if you want to
>whine and complain about how unfair it all is to you, grow up!
Quite frankly, I thought the purpose of this newsgroup was to air problems in science
women face and how we deal with them. As was justly pointed out, no one writes about
what's going right :) just like the newspapers! No one thinks (at least I hope not)
that posting here changes anything, but it lets us think about the choices we make, and
make them in a more informed manner.
>>Let's at least be honest about the choices WE have made and the
>responsibility we must take for being in the situation we are in. Only
>then can you take real action to examine a situation or system that may
>need changing. I personally, have made many choices throughout my life,
>some easy and some difficult, not to play the academic game. there have
>been time that I had to really sit myself down and say "if you choose this
>course, what are the potential adversities you may face and are you willing
>to accept them. Sometimes that means I choose to work long hours for a
>short period of time to get a project done OR it may mean choosing to take
>a stand knowing that the worst case scenario may be leaving my position.
>None of it is done without a great deal of personal investigating and
>deciding what my bottom line is for how I want to live my life. I am
>active in research and plan on publishing several papers this year. I am
>excited and thrilled to be in an environment that allows me the freedom
>to do this. But, it didn't happen just because someone handed it to me.
>I research, I made choices, I turned down very flattering offers. I
>will never regret these choices. I know many others who have made the same
>choices. We have jobs
And here you are different from many of the people whose angst fills this
newsgroup-perhaps why your perspective is different.
which provide us with the needs of a simple life.
>We are able to pursue our loves and interests and we are, more often than
>not, able to find ready support and recognition for our efforts. AND, we
>are happy.
>Sincerely,
>Cindy Hale
>University of Minnesota-Duluth
>The Natural Resources Research Institute
>Duluth, MN
>>=================================================
>Here's a scenario- not so hypothetical-
>>As a grad student or postdoc you decide to work on a project (with
>advisor's blessings/ encouragement/ support etc...) and well, nothing
>publishable comes out- effects are too small, you get scooped etc...
>>Does a great letter really make up for no publications? Should the
>student have had the foresight to bail out on the project (assuming
>the advisor didn't)? What if the advisor chooses to publish
>infrequently (and still retains funding)?
>>Just some topics for discussion.....
>>Paula
>>Julia Frugoli
Dartmouth College
visiting grad student at
Texas A&M University
Department of Biological Sciences
College Station, TX 77843
409-845-0663
FAX 409-847-8805
"Evil is best defined as militant ignorance."
Dr. M. Scott Peck
