Judith Gibber wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Bart Janssen wrote:
>> > Judith Gibber wrote:
> >
> > > I think that the postdoc should be a training period, and we
> should
> > > focus on changing it back to what it was: a) a short-term
> position
> > > and
> > > b) a chance to broaden one's scientific skills by learning
> something
> > > new.
> >
> > Agreed. What we don't agree on is the fact that having obtained a
> PhD a
> > scientist is already a highly skilled and highly valuable worker.
>> No, we DO agree about that. Maybe I can convey my opinion more
> clearly
> by omitting the word "postdoc":
>> I think there are two general options after grad school:
>> A. grad school ==> job
> B. grad school ==> traineeship ==> job
>> I agree that after getting a PhD, people are skilled enough to be
> hired
> immediately in a job (A). But some people have had the opportunity to
> do
> B, to experience an intensive period of research in a lab that uses
> different techniques or approaches than the grad school lab, before
> beginning the first job. Not that they NEEDED to be trained before
> they could be trusted to work well, but that they wanted to and were
> given the chance to take advantage of a short period, free from other
> commitments, to broaden their knowledge and skills. This chance
> seemed
> more of a gift than an obligation.
You make it sound like the host lab gains nothing.
>>> What I understood (or, perhaps, misunderstood) from the comments of
> some
> here, was that you saw yourselves as being in A, and were (rightfully)
>> upset about the low pay of your jobs, and I merely was surprised that
> you
> were not also upset about not having the chance to do B.
Nope I am fully aware that I am talking about class B. But I absolutely
insist that no one doing a post-doc should ever be paid anything but
"good" wages in recognition of their abilities and contribution to the
lab in which they are WORKING. Yes they go on from a post-doc to a
"real job" and yes they have learned during the post-doc. But no they
should not ever be paid as "trainees". They are not trainees. They are
highly skilled and educated workers who contribute tremendously to a
lab's productivity. For anyone to pretend otherwise is just nonsense.
cheers
Bart
