bmartin at utmem1.utmem.edu wrote:
> > He says men just go ahead and do it, more often than women do. I have no
> > idea if this is just his own view, what are your experiences?
> >
> > He also thinks women take advice less often than men, and that male
> > students try to "listen and learn" much more than women do. I tend to
> > agree with this.
>> In my experience, your boss is wrong on both matters. It is males who
> agressively chase after their own experimental thoughts and women who
> adhere to the mentor's wishes. It seems more a matter of your boss'
> beliefs than true. Did your boss cite examples?
Good point, actually I confronted him with the question of statistics
yesterday. Turned out he has had many more female students than male.
When I questioned his bias he used himself as example on a man who
collaborates extensively... So his conclusions might not be very
objective, I suppose. But it is an interesting thought.
> > One important point, which I have only recently come to understand, is
> > how women seldom accept that other women can be more competent or have
> > higher ambitions. Everyone in a group of women must be completely equal,
> > *in absurdum*.
>> I have observed this as well, but it is true for groups of men also.
Well, I haven't heard so much bulls*t coming from men about other men
who try to make a carreer, as I've heard from women about women. That's
just what I've heard from conversations and read between the lines.
Then C. Boake wrote:
> I think that a fair number of your questions are based on small sample
> sizes. Because women in science are uncommon, they get noticed more than
> others, and any personality trait that is seen as a difficulty gets
> magnified. It is very easy to have one bad experience and draw broad generalizations.
As I wrote above, my boss has worked with a large number of female
students as well as female seniors. However, it might be that he hasn't
had enough male collaborators to compare with.
> Your point about women being unwilling to accept inequality among women
> may also be based on a small sample size. I can think of many women
> scientists who are interested in helping any enthusiastic junior
> colleague, regardless of sex, but I can think of none who actively or
> passively impede the progress of their female colleagues. My experience
> is also based on a small sample size; I've certainly heard that women are
> more tough on other women than on men, but I have yet to see it.
I'm not only talking about concious actions like helping/not helping or
spreading rumours about someone, but also subtle unconcious effects,
things like envy. I think one explanation for why female students might
have difficulties with collaborations, is that if, during the course of
the project, one student turns out to be more driving, hardworking and
ambitious, the other feels left behind or let down. From what I've seen
I would say (and other people agree with this) that men in this
situation just show a "stiff upper lip" and get on with it, whereas
women take it personally on an emotional level. "I thought we were
friends!" (tears in eyes). Know what I mean? I've discussed this a
little with both male and female friends, and both sides agree (although
they do not agree on wich of the two ways to handle the problem is the
best... Women think their behavior shows that they're sensitive and
human, whereas men think emotions don't belong in the lab).
I would like to stress that I am not certain of what to think myself
about all this. I suppose that's why I want to discuss it with y'all.
> It should
> be pretty easy to look at authorships in journals in your field, and
> calculate the joint probabilities of women or men being coauthors, based
> on their representation in the field.
Good idea!
Thanks, Ann Magnuson
Dept of Biochemistry
Lund University, Sweden
