>> Yes, this is where I really wring my hands. If a woman is considered
> for a position, she must be getting it for tokenism or "affirmative action"
> reasons. If a man is considered, he must be the best for the job.
> There is a strong tendency to deny that a woman can ever be the
> best. I saw a really sleazy example
> of this one day when two postdocs (men) were discussing a seminar.
> The guy giving the seminar had prominantly featured the name of
> his star postdoc, a woman. The message the two postdocs got:
> "he must be sleeping with her". C'mon guys.
> Why can't they admit that women can be as smart
> or as talented as they are? The negative response is SO ingrained
> I doubt it can ever be overcome. And it is apparent even in young
> men, college student age, whose mothers should have been the example
> that
> it is NOT true.
I see this in even younger guys. My husband and I mentor a group of young
people at our church. One of the guys, the son of a college professor
(female) and man who runs a web business (I think), frequently trots out
anti-affirmative action crap, even though his mom is clearly the brains --
and the primary breadwinner-- in the family. It is only when my HUSBAND
jumps in and says something that this dude will shut up and listen.
Heck, I even get it from my own brother.
Interestingly, however, it was my
experiences that made my DAD more sensitive to these issues. Evidently it
was a shock when someone made some snide remark about me getting some
position or honor that woke him up. I have heard from his female coworkers
that he often jumps into the breach when their issues are not "heard". A
guess that is a bit paternalistic, but as he says, sometimes these
a**holes will not listen to a woman in the first place, much less
acknowledge what a she is saying may be vaild. And he gets in less trouble
for using "strong" language to address it than they would.
>> (Pause to consider that if women had such an easy time of it getting
> jobs, why aren't there more women faculty? HEre the guys
> say "because they aren't good enough", thus being inconsistant but
> reinforcing their resentment. ARGH!)
That was the more interesting point made in the MIT report. The women went
out of their way to prove that yes, in fact, they were "good enough" and
in some cases, "better" in terms of things like NAS membership, etc. than
their male colleagues.
>> > > Part of the problem is that women are so few and have such high visibility
> > > as a result that any failing stands out, whereas who notices the
> > > guy who is having difficulty, since he is one among so many? He gets
> > > to be the exception. The women are made the rule.
> >
> > Exactly. And I know that I am very sensitive to this and just CRINGE when
> > a woman does something really dumb, because I know it is going to either
> > reflect on me, or be thrown in my face.
>> Yes, I don't know why *I* am held personally responsible for every defect
> of any woman. If some poor fool does try to succeed through sex, it's
> used to dismiss the thousand women who didn't.
> I find it incredibly exhausting not only to be trying to
> keep my own career going but being a "role model" (how I hate that term)
> and a representative of every woman who ever tried to achieve anything,
> and to blame for every woman who ever failed.
> The amount of baggage heaped on the few of us who have scrambled into
> their precious heirarchy is enough to crush us right out of it again.
Preach on sister! And at the same time, of course it is totally "unfair"
for us to paint all white males with the same brush and not to acknowledge
that there are some good guys out there (especially the white male to whom
you happen to be speaking at the time).
There are some small changes going on. I was involved in a discussion
recently with some folks over the feeling that they were being
marginalized in a certain group (not actually the case; their philosophy
had been held as the dominant philosophy in a group for a couple of
decades and now was just one of many recognized-- they were no longer top
dog, so to speak.) I asked a friend of mine if he felt this. He said
"well, yes I do. But you know what? It is probably a good experience. As a
white male in this society, I do not experience this very often. It is
actually probably an okay thing for me not to be part of the prevailing
group once in awhile."
> > That whole "walking on eggshells" has to take its toll as well.
> > The question is, how do we change this?
>> I have increasingly come to despair that we ever shall. It is so
> ingrained and so self-perpetuating that I don't see how we will
> escape.
I am feeling much the same. Every time a new man (or sometimes woman)
comes into the lab and feels free to begin treating me as their personal
assistant, UNTIL I "prove" that I am actually a skilled and knowledgable
scientist.
>> To this end, I find the MIT report quite intriguing. In 2 years,
> will they find that anything has REALLY changed?
Only time will tell!
Linnea
